20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

BABerean2 said:

Based on what the Apostle Paul said in the verse below, Christ will judge both the living and the dead at His return.
We find the same thing in Revelation 11:18.


2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


The resurrection and judgment of all the dead is found below in the words of Christ and recorded by the Apostle John, who is the same man that recorded the Book of Revelation.

Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

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The Trumpets and Thunders are the judgments on the living and dead. Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats. The living from the dead. The wheat from the tares, the living from the dead. After all are dead during the next few years, and this is all over, then will be the resurrection. Those who come to life will rule on earth for 1000 years. Those who are raised as dead, will be in Death for 1000 years.

The problem is that you all are putting the church and the last 1990 years into the wrong framework, and then denying the last 1000 years is not for the church. All of these teachings of the Gospels and Revelation is not for the church, neither is the last 1000 years. The last 1000 years that you deny, is for this earthly kingdom that the Jews were expecting 1990 years ago. The sheep and the wheat for the next few years are going to be killed and resurrected. The church will not be present but in the temple of God, Paradise. This is the Garden of Eden which was for the restored Descendents of Adam. That is what Revelation 7:9-17 claims, because the church was restored in the 6th seal. Those left, knew they were in trouble. The church would not be hiding, nor part of every one on the ground. The church could never say what they were saying. All those on the ground were saying God's wrath was against them, yet it seems that some were still sheep and tares, they just had not been presented with the opportunity. To say the church is in this condition, is wrong.

Even after the Trumpets and Thunders, during the 3.5 years of Satan, some still refuse the mark of the beast. So the church is not going through this, but some will still be added to the church. These will be on the earth with Jesus Christ. If there is not a rapture, the church today is not just hiding out in a cave. What is the point of hiding out in a cave? Revelation 7 says in the temple serving God. All cave people will have to die or be beheaded any ways. Paul says some of the church will never die. Going through all points of the tribulation and then killed at the very end in either the 2 sickles or the battle of Armageddon, all will be dead. No one left to take out alive, turning Paul into a liar. The only point of going out would be the surprise of the 6th seal. That will be the only unannounced arrival. The rest of the events will be announced with Trumpets and Thunders. Saying that all the church will be dead for another 1000 years, does not make sense, when chapter 7 says they are all in the temple of God, Paradise.

Timtofly said:

The Trumpets and Thunders are the judgments on the living and dead. Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats. The living from the dead. The wheat from the tares, the living from the dead. After all are dead during the next few years, and this is all over, then will be the resurrection. Those who come to life will rule on earth for 1000 years. Those who are raised as dead, will be in Death for 1000 years.

The problem is that you all are putting the church and the last 1990 years into the wrong framework, and then denying the last 1000 years is not for the church. All of these teachings of the Gospels and Revelation is not for the church, neither is the last 1000 years. The last 1000 years that you deny, is for this earthly kingdom that the Jews were expecting 1990 years ago. The sheep and the wheat for the next few years are going to be killed and resurrected. The church will not be present but in the temple of God, Paradise. This is the Garden of Eden which was for the restored Descendents of Adam. That is what Revelation 7:9-17 claims, because the church was restored in the 6th seal. Those left, knew they were in trouble. The church would not be hiding, nor part of every one on the ground. The church could never say what they were saying. All those on the ground were saying God's wrath was against them, yet it seems that some were still sheep and tares, they just had not been presented with the opportunity. To say the church is in this condition, is wrong.

Even after the Trumpets and Thunders, during the 3.5 years of Satan, some still refuse the mark of the beast. So the church is not going through this, but some will still be added to the church. These will be on the earth with Jesus Christ. If there is not a rapture, the church today is not just hiding out in a cave. What is the point of hiding out in a cave? Revelation 7 says in the temple serving God. All cave people will have to die or be beheaded any ways. Paul says some of the church will never die. Going through all points of the tribulation and then killed at the very end in either the 2 sickles or the battle of Armageddon, all will be dead. No one left to take out alive, turning Paul into a liar. The only point of going out would be the surprise of the 6th seal. That will be the only unannounced arrival. The rest of the events will be announced with Trumpets and Thunders. Saying that all the church will be dead for another 1000 years, does not make sense, when chapter 7 says they are all in the temple of God, Paradise.

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Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The New Covenant: Bob George

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BABerean2 said:

What does the text of the verse actually say, without your additions based on the incorrect assumption that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
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If you believe that Rev 11:18, the Seventh Trumpet is the Return event, then how do you reconcile Revelation 16:12-18, the Sixth and Seventh Bowl, that describe the Great Day of God Almighty, when The Lord destroys the armies at Armageddon?
Which clearly relates to Revelation 19:11-21.

keras said:

If you believe that Rev 11:18, the Seventh Trumpet is the Return event, then how do you reconcile Revelation 16:12-18, the Sixth and Seventh Bowl, that describe the Great Day of God Almighty, when The Lord destroys the armies at Armageddon?
Which clearly relates to Revelation 19:11-21.

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It is very simple.
The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions given to John on the Island of Patmos.
This is the only way to reconcile the text.
Otherwise, certain passages must be ignored.


The video below demonstrates the principle of Recapitulation:


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keras said:

If you believe that Rev 11:18, the Seventh Trumpet is the Return event, then how do you reconcile Revelation 16:12-18, the Sixth and Seventh Bowl, that describe the Great Day of God Almighty, when The Lord destroys the armies at Armageddon?
Which clearly relates to Revelation 19:11-21.

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BaB, I asked you to explain the above anomaly.

It is plain that parts of Revelation fill in more detail of previously mentioned events.
But the basic Book of the Seals Trumpets and the Bowls are sequential.

So.. something occurred to me..
Isaiah 2:4
If this is about the new heavens and new earth, rather than about the Millennium.. where did the swords and spears come from? Why would we make weapons in the new heavens and new earth to begin with?
There's never been a time on this planet where humans have not known war and used weapons, and there will never be a time in the new heavens and new earth when weapons will ever be needed.
Between the two, if it is just a cataclysmic Jesus returns, the whole world burns and all the elements fuse and melt and this universe is completely destroyed near instantaneously.. all the weapons will be destroyed then too, they won't be taken and beaten into farming implements.
To have this be true, there has to be a state where we are on THIS earth, not destroyed, where old weapons are scrapped and reforged as instruments for peaceful activities. During the tribulations we certainly won't be scrapping weapons, they'll be getting used. Isaiah 2 also talks about the Lord ruling from mount Zion, from Jerusalem.. which is in line with the Premillennial position of there being a time in the last days when the Lord (as Jesus) will rule on earth from Jerusalem

Jamdoc said:

So.. something occurred to me..
Isaiah 2:4
If this is about the new heavens and new earth, rather than about the Millennium.. where did the swords and spears come from? Why would we make weapons in the new heavens and new earth to begin with?
There's never been a time on this planet where humans have not known war and used weapons, and there will never be a time in the new heavens and new earth when weapons will ever be needed.
Between the two, if it is just a cataclysmic Jesus returns, the whole world burns and all the elements fuse and melt and this universe is completely destroyed near instantaneously.. all the weapons will be destroyed then too, they won't be taken and beaten into farming implements.
To have this be true, there has to be a state where we are on THIS earth, not destroyed, where old weapons are scrapped and reforged as instruments for peaceful activities. During the tribulations we certainly won't be scrapping weapons, they'll be getting used. Isaiah 2 also talks about the Lord ruling from mount Zion, from Jerusalem.. which is in line with the Premillennial position of there being a time in the last days when the Lord (as Jesus) will rule on earth from Jerusalem

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The judgment of the nations at the return of Christ is found below.
How many mortals are found alive on the planet at the end of this passage?

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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BABerean2 said:

The judgment of the nations at the return of Christ is found below.
How many mortals are found alive on the planet at the end of this passage?

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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I'm sure this is going to bounce off again but peaks of prophecy. Prophets told of events without having any perspective of timing so the prophecies all seemed to happen at the same time.
Isaiah 2 has those few lines about a peaceful world ruled by the Lord where old weapons are repurposed for farmwork (meaning those old weapons had to exist to be repurposed).. but then follows up with men hiding in caves and under rocks to avoid the day of the Lord. Revelation shows that those prophecies were not given in order that the day of the Lord comes after Tribulation, and after the Lord's wrath, that's when the swords into plowshares happens.
Isaiah was seeing all things, from his time to the last judgement all happening at once, so chronology was out the window. We have prophecy about Israel being taken into captivity pretty much right on top of prophecy of the last judgement, with no sense of time in between, and there have been thousands of years in between already.

sovereigngrace said:

This is speaking of the here-and-now. He is reigning in Sion now!

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We aren't beating swords into plowshares now. We're making deadlier and deadlier weapons. We have thousands of nuclear warheads

Jamdoc said:

I'm sure this is going to bounce off again but peaks of prophecy.

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Do you think Jesus was confused in Matthew 25:31-46?


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BABerean2 said:

Do you think Jesus was confused in Matthew 25:31-46?


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No but in your interpretation Isaiah 2 can't happen, making it at best, an exaggeration, at worst a lie, which scripture does not lie. In my interpretation that final judgement just takes place at the end of the Millennium, which holds all things true at their appointed times.

People scoffed at Jesus because He didn't fulfill all the prophecies in the old testament at once.

Jamdoc said:

No but in your interpretation Isaiah 2 can't happen, making it at best, an exaggeration, at worst a lie, which scripture does not lie. In my interpretation that final judgement just takes place at the end of the Millennium, which holds all things true at their appointed times.

People scoffed at Jesus because He didn't fulfill all the prophecies in the old testament at once.

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Right.
Some posters here have ideas that are way out in the left field. We cannot spiritualize, allegorize or throw into history; the Prophesies.
God has perfect timing, all in order and all as described in our Bibles. Some prophesies are metaphors, mostly easily explained with our modern knowledge.

I think the best way for me to help you understand the order of what will happen, is a sequence of events, supported by Scriptures:
End times sequence:

Soon to happen: The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30, Malachi 4:1 & 3 It will be the Sixth Seal event of cosmic and worldwide effects and the Middle East will be virtually depopulated, cleared and cleansed, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18 It will be the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, 2 Peter 3:7 and Revelation 6:12-17 A small Messianic Jewish remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:1-4 Many will die around the world: Isaiah 51:6, Jeremiah 9:22, but most will survive and eventually re-establish the infrastructure.

The Seventh seal is ‘about’ a 20 year time gap until the Return of Jesus.

In a short while: Isaiah 29:17, all the holy Land will be regenerated and the Lord’s people, Christian Israelites, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in, all born again believers; will gather in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 35:1-10 They will live in peace and prosperity and 144,000 missionaries are selected from them, to go out to all peoples and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 7 & 14, Isaiah 66:19

The rest of the nations will form a One World Government, led by ten Presidents. Daniel 7:24, Revelation 17:12 Before long, three will be taken over and the other seven will confer their power onto another strong leader. Daniel 11:21, Revelation 13:1-8

After a few years: a Northern confederation, led by a person referred to as Gog, will be motivated to attack Beulah – an unprotected nation, of great wealth. Gog and his horde will be totally wiped out and it will take seven years to bury them and clean the land. Ezekiel 38 & 39, Joel 2:20

Sometime later, the strong leader of the World Government, will make a seven year treaty with Beulah. This marks the commencement of the seventieth ‘week’ [seven years] of Daniel. There is a 3½ year period of calm and peace in the world. Daniel 9:27

After that: the world dictator comes to Jerusalem in force and declares himself to be god in the new Temple. This starts the Great Tribulation, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements. The ‘Woman’- Christian Israelites who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, are taken to a place of safety for 1260 days. Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14

Then comes the Glorious Return of Jesus: The battle of Armageddon, Jesus destroys the army of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan.

The regathering of Christian Israel, all those who have kept faithful. Matthew 24:30-31
Then the 1000 year Millennium reign of King Jesus and His resurrected saints.
The final attack against the holy Land and the armies are instantly cremated. Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 16:13-16, Revelation 19:17-21

The Great White Throne judgement, and a New Heaven and a New Earth. Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation chapters 20:11-15 & 21:1-7

Jamdoc said:

We aren't beating swords into plowshares now. We're making deadlier and deadlier weapons. We have thousands of nuclear warheads

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Here is an argument I have brought up in the past.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.



nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4)---And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(Matthew 24:6)---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom(Matthew 24:7)

If Isaiah 2:4 is meaning during the same period of time Jesus is meaning in Matthew 24:6-7, then one of them must not be telling the truth since this appears to be contradictory if both are supposed to be true at the same time. Who should we assume is not telling the truth here? Isaiah or Jesus? Or would we better off if we conclude neither is not telling the truth here? If Isaiah 2:4 is meaning in the next age, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in the this age, wouldn't this solve the problem?

sovereigngrace said:

Why you struggle to see the difference is that you see no difference between the kingdom of God and the world. Christians who see the distinction have no difficulty in the spiritual application of Isa 2.

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Those who accept a literal 1000 year reign have no problems either. It is only with those who symbolize or spiritualize scripture who do spiritual acrobats with scriptures.

sovereigngrace said:

It is talking about the kingdom of God! It is also talking about the last days. The millennium is not the last days. Also, the last day of the last days comes at Christ's appearing.

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were people learning warfare and making weapons in heaven and are now beating them into plowshares?

DavidPT said:

Here is an argument I have brought up in the past.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.



nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more(Isaiah 2:4)---And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(Matthew 24:6)---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom(Matthew 24:7)

If Isaiah 2:4 is meaning during the same period of time Jesus is meaning in Matthew 24:6-7, then one of them must not be telling the truth since this appears to be contradictory if both are supposed to be true at the same time. Who should we assume is not telling the truth here? Isaiah or Jesus? Or would we better off if we conclude neither is not telling the truth here? If Isaiah 2:4 is meaning in the next age, and that Matthew 24:6-7 is meaning in the next age, wouldn't this solve the problem?

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I take it that Matthew 24 is talking about the period leading to the great tribulation, and Isaiah is talking about a Kingdom ON EARTH ruled by the Lord (the Millennial Kingdom) that happens afterwards.
They're both true, they're just different timing.

Jamdoc said:

They're both true, they're just different timing.

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And that sums up exactly what my point was.