Why can't America be like it was before?

Speedwell said:

Most of that is what the Right is telling them that the Left is telling them rather than what the Left is actually telling them, so they're really not taking it as seriously as you are.

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Name one of those things I posted that the left is not saying or telling them. Just one please and I will prove they are. It will be easy.

istodolez said:

And when SCOTUS gutted the voting rights act some southern states IMMEDIATELY jumped into the holes that were left to resume disenfranchisement. Texas, within 24 hours of the Shelby County SCOTUS decision ramped up efforts to this effect. Voter rolls in other states started being purged at rates MUCH higher than before (hmmmmm, wonder why). South Carolina ended annual voter registration dives after Shelby County and also kept localities from keeping voting hours longer.

Yeah, the 1960's saw some big changes and we see exactly how robust those changes were. Because once the states which were being forced to maintain voter equity were freed up by gutting the VOting Rights ACt of '64, they opened the floodgates.



Not to mention the GOP telling Americans that Mexican rapists are coming for their jobs.



Probably not all of us dying...but our economy will be destroyed as will most of the economies on the earth. But let's go ahead and kick that can down the road again for another half-century.



Dems aren't telling them that...employers are telling them that.



How well do you think people do when they can't access affordable healthcare? Just curious how you think healthcare works.



Hopefully they can see for themselves that most Christians aren't those things. It's just the ones who are that are really scary to see.



America is still the most religious developed nation in the First World, so you don't need to worry much about that. God can, presumably, take care of Himself.

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See I'm right.

Speedwell said:

Most of that is what the Right is telling them that the Left is telling them rather than what the Left is actually telling them, so they're really not taking it as seriously as you are.

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See post 117 if you don't believe me.

RDKirk said:

That's a lot of stuff the Right says the Left is telling them that they have been told, not what the Left is actually telling them, or for that matter what they actually believe.

Millennials are in their thirties now. They can determine for themselves if they really have had as much opportunity as Boomers, and they can clearly see for themselves that they have not.

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See post 117. It is what the left is telling them. Please give me one of those things I said that the left isn't saying and I will prove you wrong.

rjs330 said:

See I'm right.

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Right about what? That you don't believe what the data shows? OK. I understand that. That you are as or more locked in your own bubble as you accuse everyone else of being? Yeah, I can see that. That you are "fed" as much stuff by your preferred media outlets as you accuse others of being? Yeah, definitely there too!

rjs330 said:

See post 117. It is what the left is telling them.

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Actually, unlike you, I rely on data. Not just my own political leanings.

istodolez said:

Right about what? That you don't believe what the data shows? OK. I understand that. That you are as or more locked in your own bubble as you accuse everyone else of being? Yeah, I can see that. That you are "fed" as much stuff by your preferred media outlets as you accuse others of being? Yeah, definitely there too!

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I'm right about what the left is saying. I was trying ld the left isn't saying it. But your post is proof that the left IS saying it. And my post wasn't just about black people. Your post was evidence that the left is saying exactly what I said they were.

In a previous post you asked something about why the black community is not doing as well. Didn't you? Do you still want to have that conversation?

Caliban said:

I disagree, humans are not all bad guys. I see no reason to conclude that. Bad is a word loaded with theological charge on this forum. A definition similar to all humans have done some mildly harmful thing would be acceptable and demonstrable.

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People often are thinking of different things than each other when they use labels "good" and "bad".

Our Teacher, the Christ, teaches that our human ideas, individually, of what is "good" are typically not very deeply thought out and not as far reaching as we think.

One way He teaches this is basically telling us we are all incompetent to judge each other as persons, and barely able even to judge actions (instead of a person themselves), needing work and effort to even do that simpler thing better --

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
Matthew 7 NIV
(at a certain level of maturity (hopefully not too late in age), Christians begin to realize this applies to us all)

But He says even more about what is "good" in a more ultimate way -- and not what we think ==

17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. (!)

19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’ ”
Mark 10 NIV

Soon, He would teach them that to simply actively lust after another person not one's spouse is already adultery. He would reproach the religious leaders of that time over and over on their own hypocrisy and on their false accusations and wrong judgments and invented ways to judge with burdensome rules that weren't of God. He would teach that to stay angry at a brother is like murder. We learn that what true "good" is isn't so effortless or commonplace as we first wanted to think.

It's sort of like the golden rule, even in the pro-active "in everything" form He used --

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

It's easy! .... Or, well....most of the time.

Until a situation happens, like someone doing a wrong against you, and then suddenly it's not so easy. He teaches us that a more full love is to love even those that have been an enemy (which isn't the same as ignoring their wrong, nor letting it happen over and over, but instead can look like doing good to them even though they did wrong against us).

istodolez said:

Actually, unlike you, I rely on data. Not just my own political leanings.

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So do I. But the left is really good at twisting data to make it say something it's not.
Such as the median income for blacks is lower. Therefore we are a racist country oppressing the black man and thats why their income is lower.

rjs330 said:

But the left is really good at twisting data to make it say something it's not.

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You're projecting.

rjs330 said:

I'm right about what the left is saying.

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Well, you THINK you're correct. But of course on things like "climate change", that isn't just what the "LEft" is saying. That's what SCIENCE is saying. You THINK only the Dems are preaching doom and gloom but the GOP is doing the same thing...just different monsters in the closet.

You are no less "benighted" than the most strident Leftist...you're just on the Right.

But your post is proof that the left IS saying it. And my post wasn't just about black people. Your post was evidence that the left is saying exactly what I said they were.

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Why? Am I "the Left"? Like I said a lot of those things the Left may be saying...but so is REALITY.

In a previous post you asked something about why the black community is not doing as well. Didn't you? Do you still want to have that conversation?

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Yes, most assuredly. I want you to tell me what the problem is. Because you don't believe what anyone else is telling you (except your favorite echo chamber of Fox news/AM Talk radio/Rush/Sean/Tucker, etc.)

rjs330 said:

So do I.

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Oh...then DEFINITELY let me know when you want to start discussing DATA-based claims! That would be a refreshing change!

But the left is really good at twisting data to make it say something it's not.

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Spoken like someone who doesn't usually use data much.

Such as the median income for blacks is lower. Therefore we are a racist country oppressing the black man and thats why their income is lower.

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Oh, so you don't really understand the difference between correlation and causation. Got it. No one says that "since the median income is lower it is therefore oppression". What they say (and watch closely...it's a bit more subtle than you are probably used to): the fact that there is a systemic difference in median income over a very long period of time indicates that there is a race based component that must be used to describe the difference.

This is how I know you don't do much in the way of statistical modeling or inferential statistics. The data is the STARTING point. The idea is to take the data and create an hypothesis which explains the data.

The next step is to look at what is going on in society and see what could possibly account for this systemic difference in incomes (or any of a very large number of other variables).

Right now the most likely factor is systemic racism. But you are perfectly free to propose a variable that describes the difference.

Jump right on in there! Remember: this variable will have to explain as much or more of the variation in the data than systemic racism.

Have at it!

istodolez said:

Well, you THINK you're correct. But of course on things like "climate change", that isn't just what the "LEft" is saying. That's what SCIENCE is saying. You THINK only the Dems are preaching doom and gloom but the GOP is doing the same thing...just different monsters in the closet.

You are no less "benighted" than the most strident Leftist...you're just on the Right.



Why? Am I "the Left"? Like I said a lot of those things the Left may be saying...but so is REALITY.



Yes, most assuredly. I want you to tell me what the problem is. Because you don't believe what anyone else is telling you (except your favorite echo chamber of Fox news/AM Talk radio/Rush/Sean/Tucker, etc.)

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Makes me think of that old joke that sadly is so true, "reality has a well known liberal bias."

rjs330 said:

See post 117. It is what the left is telling them. Please give me one of those things I said that the left isn't saying and I will prove you wrong.

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"You don't need a weatherman to tell you which way the wind is blowing."

The problem is that the Right won't wet their fingers and hold them up to the wind.

istodolez said:

Well, you THINK you're correct. But of course on things like "climate change", that isn't just what the "LEft" is saying. That's what SCIENCE is saying.

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He's also a creationist. I've notice a lot of those downplaying the pandemic are creationists.

I guess if one is going to go in for science-denialism, might as well go all in. The only problem is that on issues like this pandemic, being wrong has deadly consequences. The U.S. is paying this price as we speak.

rjs330 said:

Name one of those things I posted that the left is not saying or telling them. Just one please and I will prove they are. It will be easy.

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Pick one yourself and sow me that t is not an exaggeration.

istodolez said:

I was born in the early 60's and I saw the same thing. But then I grew up in a pretty sheltered midwest rural community with almost no people of color, no real diversity and at a time when information was not as universally and easily accessible as it is now.

The reality of the bigger world of the US was not what I perceived. I was too young to understand the larger world and I had no access to the data of lived experience of so many millions upon millions of Americans.

But in small-town rural midwest it was aaaaalll good.

Which is to say that it wasn't anything like that for a LOT of Americans.

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I grew up in a working class family. My parents didn't tolerate racism or running anyone in the ground for that matter. Didn't matter about income only thing that mattered was the individual and his or her actions. I taught my kids the same.

VCR-2000 said:

I have said many times before that i was born too late. I hate the direction modern America and the rest of the Western world is going in. A lot of horrible things are happening today, it's not what America is supposed to be like at all.

Also, it's cruel that God is letting the bad guys keep winning. I know that may not necessarily be how God works, but i have very little faith left in him. I felt that for years. I also don't like that he needs to end the current world and human history so far to be able to fulfil his promises. It's all a cosmic illusion or catch-22. I hate the "end times" but it unfortunately looks like it may well happen within less than 30-50 years and there is nothing we can do to stop it.

I'm in my 20s and i want to live, and i want to see things somehow get back to where they were before instead of all this. If a calamity does come, i hope that humanity as is can be given a second chance or re-do. I hate that this is the only life God allows for us here.

I wish i was born at the same generation as my own parents at the latest.

And i know not all people believe what i mentioned above, but i digress because its still there in some people.

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Your post and your replies contain no specifics.

What is wrong with America's direction?

What was better about America and when?

What is worse now?

What do you want to return to?

mala said:

hmmm yes and thus there was no racism anywhere in the world because if you didn't see it then it didn't exist. /sarcasm.

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I can't speak for anyones experience except my own. I just know how I grew up. Experiences do mold you, I was falsely arrested and beat by the cops so therefore I still speak out against them. I didn't even get an apology after they found out someone stole my identity.

Sparagmos said:

Were there a lot of interracial couples? Was there no segregation or redlining? We’re little girls told that when they grew up they could be President, like boys were?

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I have two girls and yes they were told they could do anything. I'm happy with how they turned out. As far as interracial that wasn't an issue that I remember.