[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

Tim Ray · Jul 9, 2020

iamlamad said:
Tim, someone like this author, whoever he or she is, may SOUND like they have it all together. But within a couple of minutes I see they are messed up. Read:

Then, the dragon chased woman to the desert for 1,260 years (a time, times and half a time) According to Rule Four, this time period must be translated using a day for year because the Jubilee Calendar is in operation

The truth is, John said 1260 days and it IS 1260 days or half of the 70th week. John gave us 5 verses to prove this and Daniel gave us two.

My suggest is, THROW IT OUT! (The rules.) They led this author straight into error.

Lamad, The truth is John said in (Rev.12:14) of which you are referencing in the bold print, said, "a time, times and half a time". I agree it amounts to 1260 days. You disagree that it should be translated a day for a year, 1260 literal yrs. However, you understand that it makes up half of the 70th wk. of (Dan. 9) Therefore, I assume you believe the seventy weeks of (Dan. 9) must be translated a day for a year in order to make up seven literal years out of the 70th week.

I have two questions for you.
1. Are there other time elements in Dan. and Rev. you understand to be understood as a day for a year?

2. What is your understanding as to why God would use this unit of timing (day/yr.) in some prophecies and not others?

I have posted for you why I think God uses the day/yr measurement of time in some prophecies and not others. Note too in this explanation the death of Christ in the middled of the 70th week confirms the correctness of its placement in time.

Is your understanding of the seventy weeks supported by historical fact?

The Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9
Since Jesus created the world, the first day of each week has aligned with the first day of Creation and the seventh day of each week has aligned with God’s Sabbath rest. (Genesis 2:1-3) Even though human beings may define a week as any period of seven days, God defines a week as a period of seven days that aligns with Creation’s week. (Exodus 20:8-11)

God created a new calendar for Israel at the time of the Exodus. (Exodus 12:2) This calendar is often called the Jubilee Calendar and it is based on God’s weekly cycle. God established a cycle of seven years so that each day of the week represented a year. To ensure the integrity of this cycle, God declared every seventh year dating from the Exodus was to be a Sabbath year of rest for the land. Israel entered Canaan in a Friday year (the 41st year since the Exodus) and their first full year in the Promised Land was a Sabbath year; much like Adam and Eve’s first full day of life was a Sabbath day. The Jubilee Calendar measures time in units of forty nine year cycles (seven weeks of years). When a forty-nine year cycle expired, the following year was declared a year of Jubilee. The year of Jubilee was a special year because debts were cancelled, slaves were set free, and all of the land was returned to the original owners for free. The year of Jubilee always fell on a Sunday year. It was counted as the fiftieth year of the outgoing Jubilee cycle and simultaneously, it was counted as the first year of the new incoming Jubilee cycle.

These facts about the Jubilee Calendar are important because the seventy weeks in Daniel 9 did not suddenly appear with a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Actually, the seventy weeks mentioned in Daniel 9 align with ongoing weekly cycles of years that began at the time of the Exodus. God did not grant 490 random years to Israel, but instead, God defined the 490 years as seventy weeks so that He could draw Israel’s attention back to the weekly cycles of years that Israel had long ignored. When Gabriel said to Daniel, “Seventy sevens are decreed for your people” his language was designed to redirect Israel’s attention to the Jubilee Calendar which included the release of slaves, Sabbath years of rest for the land every seventh year, and the restoration of the land to its original owners at no charge!

Consider the way that Gabriel broke down the seventy weeks in Daniel 9:25:

7 weeks + 62 weeks + 1 week = 70 weeks 49 years + 434 years + 7 years = 490 years

Gabriel expressed the seventy weeks as three segments of time because the first segment of seven sevens is a Jubilee cycle. This was a huge clue for the nation of Israel. The all important decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee! God wanted His people to anticipate that the land would be returned to the Jews at no charge and the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee. This alignment with the Jubilee Calendar was not a casual coincidence. God had exiled Israel to Babylon for seventy years because it had refused to observe the Jubilee Calendar!

Gabriel also told Daniel that Messiah would appear and begin His ministry exactly seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks (483 years) after the decree was issued. Then, in the middle of the following week of seven years (the seventieth week), Messiah would be “cut off” (disinherited), but not for Himself (Jesus would be cut off for sinners). When this information is properly assembled, perfect harmony springs from the sum of all of the parts! History says the all-important decree was issued in a year of Jubilee (457 B.C.) and exactly sixty-nine weeks later (A.D. 27), Jesus showed up on the banks of the Jordan River and John baptized Him. Jesus began his ministry in the fall of A.D. 27 (a Sunday year) and was crucified in the spring of A.D. 30, (a Wednesday year, in the middle of the seventieth week.)

Four decrees were issued to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and 457 B.C. is the only one that occurred in a year of Jubilee. (Jesus Final Victory, pgs. 83-84)

Timtofly · Jul 9, 2020

iamlamad said:
The 70th Week starts with the first seal. You start your post with myth. That is off to a very poor start. To say that you are pulling that first seal out of its context. EVERY believer should know, it is a huge no no to pull a verse out of its context.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

WHEN? When did Jesus get the book? It is plain as day: He got the book as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Neither did He (or will He) wait 2000 years to open that first seal. You cannot find 2000 years anywhere there - not even trying to read between the lines: IT IS NOT THERE. Jesus opened that first seal as soon as He ascended and got the book. The truth is, God had been waiting 4000 years for SOMEONE to become worthy to open the seals so the BOOK could be opened so God could LEGALLY kick Satan off his throne as god of this world.

Next, did you really examine the first seal? Did you notice that John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - and 16 times it was to represent righteousness? No, you just heard somewhere that the first seal was the Antichrist and you ran with it.

The truth is, the first seal is the CHURCH (white for righteousness all 17 times) sent out with the GOSPEL.

God's wrath is on the apostate church. let's just believe Paul.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

The 6th seal is the rapture You are close: the rapture will trigger the 6th seal.

The 6th seal is the ... start of the ministry of the Lamb on the earth. WHAT? His ministry started 2000 years ago!

That is what is revealed in the ministry of the 144K disciples of the Lamb. There is not ONE WORD written that the 144,000 do any kind of ministry. They might, but it is not written. What IS written is that they are firstfruits of the tribes of Israel.

The church is not here, because their harvest was wrapped up in the 4th seal. No, the 4th seal goes with the 3rd and 2nd seal: these three ride together trying to stop the advance of the gospel (the first seal). God has allowed Satan to use WAR, FAMINE, PESTILENCE and wild beasts to try and stop the gospel. But God limited them to operate in only 1/4 of the earth.

The rapture is not an escape OF COURSE it is an escape. Did you not read Luke 21:36? We get to escape "all these things" that will happen during the 70th week, but especially God's wrath poured out. Of course it is the end of the church age. I won't disagree there.

If it was an escape, it would have happened before seal 4. MYTH

The book was written at the time of Atonement, but it was sealed from before the heavens and earth was created. How can it be written and opened at the same time? It is not opened until the whole 6000 years decreed to Adam as punishment is declared over. How can you just make up your own timeline?

Tim Ray · Jul 9, 2020

Timtofly said:
The book was written at the time of Atonement, but it was sealed from before the heavens and earth was created. How can it be written and opened at the same time? It is not opened until the whole 6000 years decreed to Adam as punishment is declared over. How can you just make up your own timeline?

Tim, I agree that the book sealed with seven seals was was sealed before this earth was created (Rev13:11). In (Rev. 5) The Father passes it to the Lamb/Jesus Therefore, I conclude the Father wrote the book since He handed it to the Lamb. From that time forward The Lamb has the book and commences to open it's seals. In (Rev. 13:11; 21:27) John sees the Lamb holding a book and calls it the Lambs book of life. Prophecy to my knowledge does not reveal a time when the Lamb receives another book. So common sense leads most people to understand that the Lambs book of life is the same book the Father wrote and sealed with seven seals, before this earth was created and passed onto the Lamb in (1798) according to (Dan.7; Rev.5)

"It is not opened until the whole 6000 years decreed to Adam as punishment is declared over". How do you support this statement from scripture?

Tim Ray · Jul 9, 2020

keras said:
This wild conjecture and unbiblical fabrication, is our main area of disagreement.
God is pre-trib? NO; God is a God of vengeance and He directs His wrath against His enemies. Nahum 1:2
Soon we will all face the test: 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

I ask, no I demand; that anyone who promotes the 'rapture to heaven' theory, must post supporting scripture that clearly and undeniably proves their belief.

Jesus says; I have other sheep.....
Paul says; Not all of Israel is ethnic Israel......

MANY scriptures prophesy the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. You fanciful idea of them on earth while you strum harps in heaven, is beyond credibility.

Keras, I support you in this belief, there is no pre-trip rapture. Too, I will put these insights up for further support of our belief.

Six Apocalyptic Prophesies
There are six apocalyptic prophecies in the book of Daniel and they “stack” on top of each other much like the layers of a wedding cake. Each prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time and each prophecy contains an orderly sequence of events. For example, Daniel 2 is the bottom layer or “foundation” prophecy and its time-span reaches from 600 B.C. to the Second Coming.

The second apocalyptic prophecy ( Daniel 7) stacks on top of Daniel 2 and covers the same time-span as Daniel 2. The third prophecy or layer starts around 538 B.C. and reaches to the Second Coming. The fourth prophecy begins in 457 B.C. and ends with A.D. 33, etc. By layering the prophecies of Daniel on top of each other, God eliminated several problems before they even began! First, when we examine these six layers, a large amount of information unfolds that is otherwise unknown.

By linking the six layers together with prophetic events, God says a great deal with the fewest possible words. This is an important consideration because books of the Old Testament were duplicated by hand for almost 3,000 years. Second, by layering the prophecies on top of each other, God implemented a process which scholars call repetition and enlargement. It allows the Bible student to confidently arrange and define all the prophetic elements within each prophecy.

As each layer of prophecy is added to the “stack,” the underlying layers have to be correctly interpreted and chronologically arranged or the next layer will not make sense. Last, by layering the prophecies, God hid the meaning of these prophecies in the book of Daniel until the time of the end would arrive. ( Daniel 12:4,9)

I believe God did this so the last generation on Earth could quickly understand the fulfillment of 26 centuries of prophecy. In other words, an ordinary person can now understand the sweeping prophetic progression of 26 centuries with just a few hours of study.

Now that the layering of the prophecies has been discovered, people can determine which elements of apocalyptic prophecy are in the past and which are forthcoming! A brief discussion about the six layers in Daniel has been presented because of this statement: “The six prophecies of Daniel do not support the idea of a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture of the saints.”

There are twelve apocalyptic prophecies in the book of Revelation and these also “stack” on top of each other just like the six layers do in the book of Daniel. Even more, the twelve layers of Revelation harmoniously align with the six apocalyptic prophecies in Daniel. When all eighteen prophecies are viewed together, there is one marvelous prophetic story that unfolds in chronological order.

All eighteen prophecies are interconnected. Each layer has a starting point in time and an ending point in time, and the events in each prophecy (or layer) occur in the chronological order given.

When a person understands how past fulfillment of prophecy conform to this well-defined architecture, it is possible to determine with some certainty the chronological timing within God’s prophetic plans. It is important to understand that the chronological layers of Daniel and Revelation do not support a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture.

When the eighteen layers of apocalyptic prophecy are arranged correctly, the progressive fulfillment of prophecy is confirmed by recorded history. This occurs because apocalyptic prophecy produces a chronological “time-line” showing past, present and future events. A knowledge of this time-line prevents a misapplication of end-time statements that occur throughout the Bible.

For example, the opening text for this chapter ( Matthew 24:40-42) is often used by proponents of the pre-tribulation rapture to justify a sudden snatching away of people from Earth.

There are two problems with this assertion. First, the chronological order of Daniel and Revelation does not support a pre-tribulation rapture and second, the context itself does not mandate a pre-tribulation rapture. If a person has the notion of a pre-tribulation rapture already in mind, Matthew 24:40-42 can be presented in a way that makes it appear to support a pre-tribulation rapture.

Before a sincere Bible student draws a conclusion, efforts should be made to reconcile many texts that are not in harmony with a pre-tribulation rapture. We need to ask, can we “pick and choose” texts that only favor our notions and ignore those we do not understand or like?

Truth is found in the harmony that comes from the sum of all its parts. There is an explanation for Matthew 24:40-42 that harmoniously aligns with the chronological order given in Daniel and Revelation, as well as all the other texts that do not harmonize with the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture.

iamlamad · Jul 9, 2020

Tim Ray said:
Keras, I support you in this belief, there is no pre-trip rapture. Too, I will put these insights up for further support of our belief.
...

For example, the opening text for this chapter ( Matthew 24:40-42) is often used by proponents of the pre-tribulation rapture to justify a sudden snatching away of people from Earth.

There are two problems with this assertion. First, the chronological order of Daniel and Revelation does not support a pre-tribulation rapture and second, the context itself does not mandate a pre-tribulation rapture. If a person has the notion of a pre-tribulation rapture already in mind, Matthew 24:40-42 can be presented in a way that makes it appear to support a pre-tribulation rapture.

First, the chronological order of Daniel and Revelation does not support a pre-tribulation rapture I usually say "myth" for such a sentence. This time I will only say, can this statement be backed up by scripture?

Did you not read in Revelation chapter 7 of the great crowd, too large to number? That IS the raptured church. How then can you say the chronology of Revelation does not support a pretrib rapture? The "trib" does not start in Revelation until chapter 8. Chapter 7 comes before chapter 8. That is PRE demonstrated.

Sorry, no rapture ANYWHERE in Daniel.

Timtofly · Jul 9, 2020

Tim Ray said:
Tim, I agree that the book sealed with seven seals was was sealed before this earth was created (Rev13:11). In (Rev. 5) The Father passes it to the Lamb/Jesus Therefore, I conclude the Father wrote the book since He handed it to the Lamb. From that time forward The Lamb has the book and commences to open it's seals. In (Rev. 13:11; 21:27) John sees the Lamb holding a book and calls it the Lambs book of life. Prophecy to my knowledge does not reveal a time when the Lamb receives another book. So common sense leads most people to understand that the Lambs book of life is the same book the Father wrote and sealed with seven seals, before this earth was created and passed onto the Lamb in (1798) according to (Dan.7; Rev.5)

"It is not opened until the whole 6000 years decreed to Adam as punishment is declared over". How do you support this statement from scripture?

Revelation 6. The 5th seal indicates the spiritual death has not been resolved. The robe of white does not happen until the end of the church age, which is also the end of Adam's 6000 year punishment. We cannot just pick random dates. The 7 years falls between the Millenniums. In this case, time is shortened. 2000 years would be 2030, if one places the Cross on the 14th of Nisan AD30. The 0 time would be 4000 years from the day the Garden of Eden was planted. 30 years later would be Adam's moment of disobedience. AD30 would be 4000 years from the fall. Genesis 2. Those are the markers for the Day's of the Lord. John recorded the seals, trumpets, and thunders over a 3.5 year period leading up to the Second Coming. John was a witness not a prophet. Revelation 1:2
"who bore witness to the Word of God and to the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah, as much as he saw."

iamlamad · Jul 9, 2020

Timtofly said:
The book was written at the time of Atonement, but it was sealed from before the heavens and earth was created. How can it be written and opened at the same time? It is not opened until the whole 6000 years decreed to Adam as punishment is declared over. How can you just make up your own timeline?

How do you KNOW the book was written at the time of the Atonement? Since writing inside the book gets Satan kicked off his throne he has had since Adam's fall, I rather think this book with seven seals was created in the throne room of heaven shortly after Adam's fall. I think it is the lease document to earth.

When did John first SEE it? In chapter 5, verse 1. It was in the hand of the Father. When did Jesus get it into HIS hands? John tells us: it is when He ascended. That would make it around 32 or 33 AD.

By the way, did you notice that when John first saw the throne room in the vision, Jesus was missing? Did you notice that the Holy Spirit was there?

In 95 AD, we would expect the Holy Spirit to have been sent down, and we would expect that Jesus would have been seen at the right hand of the Father where Stephen saw Him. Yet in this book of His revealing, Jesus was missing.
Then John watched a search for one worthy that ended in failure. Why would God show John in a vision of a search that failed?

What do you make of these things?

iamlamad · Jul 9, 2020

Timtofly said:
Revelation 6. The 5th seal indicates the spiritual death has not been resolved. The robe of white does not happen until the end of the church age, which is also the end of Adam's 6000 year punishment. We cannot just pick random dates. The 7 years falls between the Millenniums. In this case, time is shortened. 2000 years would be 2030, if one places the Cross on the 14th of Nisan AD30. The 0 time would be 4000 years from the day the Garden of Eden was planted. 30 years later would be Adam's moment of disobedience. AD30 would be 4000 years from the fall. Genesis 2. Those are the markers for the Day's of the Lord. John recorded the seals, trumpets, and thunders over a 3.5 year period leading up to the Second Coming. John was a witness not a prophet. Revelation 1:2
"who bore witness to the Word of God and to the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah, as much as he saw."

Please tell us all what the 5th seal has to do with spiritual death. I always thought martyrs were killed physically. And martyred because they loved Jesus - which would make them spiritually alive. Since they are in heaven, OF COURSE they are spiritually alive.

The robe of white does not happen until the end of the church age And you get this from what verse?

The 7 years falls between the Millenniums. How can it not be a part of one or the other or both? Time does not cease and wait for 7 years. Personally I think the change of millenniums is at the 7th seal and at the exact midpoint of the week.

iamlamad · Jul 9, 2020

Tim Ray said:
Tim, I agree that the book sealed with seven seals was was sealed before this earth was created (Rev13:11). In (Rev. 5) The Father passes it to the Lamb/Jesus Therefore, I conclude the Father wrote the book since He handed it to the Lamb. From that time forward The Lamb has the book and commences to open it's seals. In (Rev. 13:11; 21:27) John sees the Lamb holding a book and calls it the Lambs book of life. Prophecy to my knowledge does not reveal a time when the Lamb receives another book. So common sense leads most people to understand that the Lambs book of life is the same book the Father wrote and sealed with seven seals, before this earth was created and passed onto the Lamb in (1798) according to (Dan.7; Rev.5)

"It is not opened until the whole 6000 years decreed to Adam as punishment is declared over". How do you support this statement from scripture?

So common sense leads most people to understand that the Lambs book of life is the same book the Father wrote and sealed with seven seals, before this earth was created and passed onto the Lamb in (1798) according to (Dan.7; Rev.5)

Strange: you say "most people" yet you are the first one in my 74 years I have ever heard suggest it. I think it is YOUR theory.

Is God not allowed to have TWO BOOKS?

What about the little book that John ate?
Well, you are certainly free to believe what you will.

iamlamad · Jul 9, 2020

Tim Ray said:
Lamad, The truth is John said in (Rev.12:14) of which you are referencing in the bold print, said, "a time, times and half a time". I agree it amounts to 1260 days. You disagree that it should be translated a day for a year, 1260 literal yrs. However, you understand that it makes up half of the 70th wk. of (Dan. 9) Therefore, I assume you believe the seventy weeks of (Dan. 9) must be translated a day for a year in order to make up seven literal years out of the 70th week.

I have two questions for you.
1. Are there other time elements in Dan. and Rev. you understand to be understood as a day for a year?

2. What is your understanding as to why God would use this unit of timing (day/yr.) in some prophecies and not others?

I have posted for you why I think God uses the day/yr measurement of time in some prophecies and not others. Note too in this explanation the death of Christ in the middled of the 70th week confirms the correctness of its placement in time.

Is your understanding of the seventy weeks supported by historical fact?

The Seventy Weeks of Daniel 9
Since Jesus created the world, the first day of each week has aligned with the first day of Creation and the seventh day of each week has aligned with God’s Sabbath rest. (Genesis 2:1-3) Even though human beings may define a week as any period of seven days, God defines a week as a period of seven days that aligns with Creation’s week. (Exodus 20:8-11)

God created a new calendar for Israel at the time of the Exodus. (Exodus 12:2) This calendar is often called the Jubilee Calendar and it is based on God’s weekly cycle. God established a cycle of seven years so that each day of the week represented a year. To ensure the integrity of this cycle, God declared every seventh year dating from the Exodus was to be a Sabbath year of rest for the land. Israel entered Canaan in a Friday year (the 41st year since the Exodus) and their first full year in the Promised Land was a Sabbath year; much like Adam and Eve’s first full day of life was a Sabbath day. The Jubilee Calendar measures time in units of forty nine year cycles (seven weeks of years). When a forty-nine year cycle expired, the following year was declared a year of Jubilee. The year of Jubilee was a special year because debts were cancelled, slaves were set free, and all of the land was returned to the original owners for free. The year of Jubilee always fell on a Sunday year. It was counted as the fiftieth year of the outgoing Jubilee cycle and simultaneously, it was counted as the first year of the new incoming Jubilee cycle.

These facts about the Jubilee Calendar are important because the seventy weeks in Daniel 9 did not suddenly appear with a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Actually, the seventy weeks mentioned in Daniel 9 align with ongoing weekly cycles of years that began at the time of the Exodus. God did not grant 490 random years to Israel, but instead, God defined the 490 years as seventy weeks so that He could draw Israel’s attention back to the weekly cycles of years that Israel had long ignored. When Gabriel said to Daniel, “Seventy sevens are decreed for your people” his language was designed to redirect Israel’s attention to the Jubilee Calendar which included the release of slaves, Sabbath years of rest for the land every seventh year, and the restoration of the land to its original owners at no charge!

Consider the way that Gabriel broke down the seventy weeks in Daniel 9:25:

7 weeks + 62 weeks + 1 week = 70 weeks 49 years + 434 years + 7 years = 490 years

Gabriel expressed the seventy weeks as three segments of time because the first segment of seven sevens is a Jubilee cycle. This was a huge clue for the nation of Israel. The all important decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee! God wanted His people to anticipate that the land would be returned to the Jews at no charge and the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem would occur during a year of Jubilee. This alignment with the Jubilee Calendar was not a casual coincidence. God had exiled Israel to Babylon for seventy years because it had refused to observe the Jubilee Calendar!

Gabriel also told Daniel that Messiah would appear and begin His ministry exactly seven weeks plus sixty-two weeks (483 years) after the decree was issued. Then, in the middle of the following week of seven years (the seventieth week), Messiah would be “cut off” (disinherited), but not for Himself (Jesus would be cut off for sinners). When this information is properly assembled, perfect harmony springs from the sum of all of the parts! History says the all-important decree was issued in a year of Jubilee (457 B.C.) and exactly sixty-nine weeks later (A.D. 27), Jesus showed up on the banks of the Jordan River and John baptized Him. Jesus began his ministry in the fall of A.D. 27 (a Sunday year) and was crucified in the spring of A.D. 30, (a Wednesday year, in the middle of the seventieth week.)

Four decrees were issued to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and 457 B.C. is the only one that occurred in a year of Jubilee. (Jesus Final Victory, pgs. 83-84)

Therefore, I assume you believe the seventy weeks of (Dan. 9) must be translated a day for a year in order to make up seven literal years out of the 70th week. You Assume correctly.

1. Are there other time elements in Dan. and Rev. you understand to be understood as a day for a year?
Of course the entire 70th week. Nothing else I can think of at this moment.

2. What is your understanding as to why God would use this unit of timing (day/yr.) in some prophecies and not others?
I have a difficult enough time trying to understand the prophecies, much less to try and understand why God caused them to be written as they were.

Note too in this explanation the death of Christ in the middled of the 70th week confirms the correctness of its placement in time.
Sorry, but this is simply not truth. Jesus was NOT slain in the middle of the 7th week. Did you not notice that Daniel himself wrote a GAP in that chapter? He event spoke of events IN that gap, such as the events of 70 AD.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [gap]

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Notice that the 7 and and 62 weeks ENDS (verse 25) and then after that ending but BEFORE the 70th the Messiah is killed. The a prince will come with an army and the people of the price will destroy the city - all inside this gap.

God caused Daniel to do this on purpose because the entire 70th week is future to us today. Notice in verse 27 that HE (related back to the price that would come) will cause the sacrifice to cease. WHEN? In the midst (the half way point) of the week. Jesus then spoke of this abomination.

Then Paul tells us the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. We all know from the Old Covenant, if anyone other than the high priest was to enter the most holy place in the temple, it would pollute the temple and the daily sacrifices would have to cease until a red heifer could be found and the temple cleansed.

All this is telling us that IN THE FUTURE the man of sin will enter the temple and STOP the daily sacrifices, and this event will divide the future 70th week. John gave us the last half of this week in five different verses and in three different ways. Daniel gave it two times also.

For this reason, many people only see 3.5 years in Revelation. They all miss the first half of the week. the 7th trumpet will mark the moment the man of sin enters the temple, so marks the exact midpoint of the week. the week begins at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment, so the first half of the week is the first 6 trumpets.

Your theory does not quite align with "The Coming Prince" by Sir Robert Anderson.

iamlamad · Jul 9, 2020

keras said:
This wild conjecture and unbiblical fabrication, is our main area of disagreement.
God is pre-trib? NO; God is a God of vengeance and He directs His wrath against His enemies. Nahum 1:2
Soon we will all face the test: 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

I ask, no I demand; that anyone who promotes the 'rapture to heaven' theory, must post supporting scripture that clearly and undeniably proves their belief.

Jesus says; I have other sheep.....
Paul says; Not all of Israel is ethnic Israel......

MANY scriptures prophesy the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. You fanciful idea of them on earth while you strum harps in heaven, is beyond credibility.

I don't make demands here: I ask politely.

If someone tells me that the Israel on the map is not true Israel, I then ask them to show us another Israel on any map anywhere. if God speaks of Israel in the end times - and He surely does - then WHICH ISRAEL? There is only ONE, With Jerusalem as its capital.

By the way, if you don't WANT to go to heaven, that is fine. The rest of the church is going.

Timtofly · Jul 9, 2020

iamlamad said:
How do you KNOW the book was written at the time of the Atonement? Since writing inside the book gets Satan kicked off his throne he has had since Adam's fall, I rather think this book with seven seals was created in the throne room of heaven shortly after Adam's fall. I think it is the lease document to earth.

When did John first SEE it? In chapter 5, verse 1. It was in the hand of the Father. When did Jesus get it into HIS hands? John tells us: it is when He ascended. That would make it around 32 or 33 AD.

By the way, did you notice that when John first saw the throne room in the vision, Jesus was missing? Did you notice that the Holy Spirit was there?

In 95 AD, we would expect the Holy Spirit to have been sent down, and we would expect that Jesus would have been seen at the right hand of the Father where Stephen saw Him. Yet in this book of His revealing, Jesus was missing.
Then John watched a search for one worthy that ended in failure. Why would God show John in a vision of a search that failed?

What do you make of these things?

The Atonement was for all humanity, thus all humanity is found in the book, even before this heaven and earth was formed. Revelation 13:8-10
8 Everyone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb slaughtered before the world was founded.
9 Those who have ears, let them hear!

10 “If anyone is meant for captivity,
into captivity he goes!
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he is to be killed!”

Names in the Lamb's book of life was settled before the heavens and earth were formed. However this 3.5 year period of Satan is past the cutoff point. Verse 10 points out those in captivity will stay in captivity. Those who would be killed, will be killed. The elect in this period, will loose their heads. The Atonement has nothing whatsoever to do with Satan. Satan is dealt with separate from Adam. The tribulation is about judgment and harvest of humanity as relating to the church (seals), Jacob (trumpets), and the nations (thunders). All humanity will die. Any left during the Second Coming week, the week will get split in half for Satan's 3.5 years. Then the vials are poured out on those alive. Then all left will be killed at the battle of Armageddon. All dead. Then the Resurrection of only those killed in the tribulation after the 7th seal. Some will reign with Christ 1000 years, the others will be bound in Death, until the 1000 years are over.

The time of the trib starts at the 1st seal, the rapture happens at the 6th seal. There is no judgment in the 5th, 6th, and 7th seal. The Atonement and church are completed in these seals. God on the throne and the Lamb are present in the air above the earth. The veil of spiritual blindness has been lifted, and land is now a single continent. The destruction of Noah's Flood was made whole, but now sheol would also be opened. The temple of God would also be nearby, as the restored Garden of Eden. How is not told, but chapter 7 gives the who, minus the 144K who will be the direct witness on earth with the Lamb. The Holy Spirit and the Lamb are now one in physical presence on earth. God on the throne as in the days of Moses at Mt. Sinai. No one on earth will have an excuse. All know it is the end and the harvest will be carried out.

Timtofly · Jul 9, 2020

iamlamad said:
Please tell us all what the 5th seal has to do with spiritual death. I always thought martyrs were killed physically. And martyred because they loved Jesus - which would make them spiritually alive. Since they are in heaven, OF COURSE they are spiritually alive.

The robe of white does not happen until the end of the church age And you get this from what verse?

The 7 years falls between the Millenniums. How can it not be a part of one or the other or both? Time does not cease and wait for 7 years. Personally I think the change of millenniums is at the 7th seal and at the exact midpoint of the week.

The souls in Christ are alive, but no robe of white until the end of the church age, and the book is unsealed. The robe of white is the spiritual body. A glorified body is given to the whole church, just as Paul wrote with respect to a complete body in Christ. It is given at one time in the 5th and 6th seals. There are still a few years between the 7th seal and the Second Coming. But Satan's 3.5 years cuts the Second Coming week in half. That is how there is 3.5 years before the Second Coming and a period of 3.5 years in the Second Coming.

iamlamad · Jul 9, 2020

Timtofly said:
The Atonement was for all humanity, thus all humanity is found in the book, even before this heaven and earth was formed. Revelation 13:8-10
8 Everyone living on earth will worship it except those whose names are written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb slaughtered before the world was founded.
9 Those who have ears, let them hear!

10 “If anyone is meant for captivity,
into captivity he goes!
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he is to be killed!”

Names in the Lamb's book of life was settled before the heavens and earth were formed. However this 3.5 year period of Satan is past the cutoff point. Verse 10 points out those in captivity will stay in captivity. Those who would be killed, will be killed. The elect in this period, will loose their heads. The Atonement has nothing whatsoever to do with Satan. and the nations (thunders). All humanity Satan is dealt with separate from Adam. The tribulation is about judgment and harvest of humanity as relating to the church (seals), Jacob (trumpets), will die. Any left during the Second Coming week, the week will get split in half for Satan's 3.5 years. Then the vials are poured out on those alive. Then all left will be killed at the battle of Armageddon. All dead. Then the Resurrection of only those killed in the tribulation after the 7th seal. Some will reign with Christ 1000 years, the others will be bound in Death, until the 1000 years are over.

The time of the trib starts at the 1st seal, the rapture happens at the 6th seal. There is no judgment in the 5th, 6th, and 7th seal. The Atonement and church are completed in these seals. God on the throne and the Lamb are present in the air above the earth. The veil of spiritual blindness has been lifted, and land is now a single continent. The destruction of Noah's Flood was made whole, but now sheol would also be opened. The temple of God would also be nearby, as the restored Garden of Eden. How is not told, but chapter 7 gives the who, minus the 144K who will be the direct witness on earth with the Lamb. The Holy Spirit and the Lamb are now one in physical presence on earth. God on the throne as in the days of Moses at Mt. Sinai. No one on earth will have an excuse. All know it is the end and the harvest will be carried out.

All humanity will (at least one time in their life) surely be found written the the Lamb's book of life - but we are not talking about that book! We are talking about the book sealed with 7 seals. If you wish to know what is written inside the book, just start reading after the 7th seal is opened. What will you read? About the TRUMPET judgments. I believe the entire 70th week is what is written inside the book.

All humanity will die. What about those caught up in Paul's rapture? they don't die, but are changed. What about the 144,000? Then don't die either.

the church (seals), Jacob (trumpets), Did you mean the church will be raptured at the 6th seal, and the trumpets will be for Israel? I doubt if that is what you meant - but it is truth.

The time of the trib starts at the 1st seal Sorry, this is myth: you cannot pull that first seal out of its 32 AD context. It is the CHURCH sent out with the gospel. "The trib" or 70th week starts at the 7th seal. You are only around 2000 years off.

the rapture happens at the 6th seal. FINALLY: something almost right: just BEFORE the 6th seal - because the 6th seal starts wrath.

and land is now a single continent. Sorry, there is no scripture about this so it too is myth. (Unless you have found a scripture no one else has found.)

No one on earth will have an excuse. Finally:one more thing I can agree with.

You certainly have an imagination.

BABerean2 · Jul 10, 2020

iamlamad said:
"The trib" or 70th week starts at the 7th seal.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about seven years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

.

Douggg · Jul 10, 2020

iamlamad said:
Notice that the 7 and and 62 weeks ENDS (verse 25) and then after that ending but BEFORE the 70th the Messiah is killed.

Right. There is a gap of 4 days. Jesus arrives, hailed as the messiah. 4 days later cutoff.

70th week is end times. The 7 years are in the little book that John ate in Revelation 10.

After eating the little book, the timeframes of the 7 years, follow in Revelation 11, Revelation 12, Revelation 13.

1260 days, Revelation 11, Revelation 12
42 months, Revelation 11, Revelation 13
time, times, half times, Revelation 12

3 1/2 days, Revelation 11.

Douggg · Jul 10, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about seven years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

Did not have the little book of Revelation 10. The 70th week is in the little book that John ate in Revelation 10. The timeframes of the 7 years are in Revelation 11, Revelation 12, Revelation 13.

BABerean2 · Jul 10, 2020

Douggg said:
The 70th week is in the little book that John ate in Revelation 10.

A future 70th week of Daniel is only found in the imaginations of those who try to ignore Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

In the video below Daniel Chapter 9 is explained by Dr. Kelly Varner, who does not believe the angel Gabriel ignored the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

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tampasteve · Jul 10, 2020

ADMIN HAT ON

Please note that this thread has been moved to a more appropriate forum.

ADMIN HAT OFF

Douggg · Jul 10, 2020

What specific denomination is this thread referring to ? Can anyone tell me ? I am non-denominational.

[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

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