Covenant and New Covenant theology

mkgal1

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Deuteronomy 6:5 ~ And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Leviticus 19:18 ~ Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against any of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

This is at the heart of both covenants - it cannot "die" and have the New Covenant still "live". Paul never taught anything in contradiction to this - in fact - Paul (and Jesus) encourages us to follow these instructions as our foundation of our faith.

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

.
So there must be a division in types of law or some other explanation.....right? Because certainly loving God and loving others is NOT a "ministry of death"....correct?

There is continuity and discontinuity between the Testaments.

Quoting from link:
All the precepts of the Decalogue are also precepts of the natural law, which can be gathered by reason from nature herself, and in fact they were known long before Moses wrote them down at the express command of God. This is the teaching of St. Paul — "For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law [of Moses], are a law to themselves: who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them" (Romans 2:14, 15)"CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Moral Aspect of Divine Law" CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Moral Aspect of Divine Law
 
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mkgal1

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ISTM that God always simultaneously demonstrated mercy alongside His commandments (although it wasn't fully recognizable until Christ).

Think about the placement of the stone tablets in the Ark of the Covenant.

Hebrews 9:5 (NKJV) and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.


These two cherubim overshadowed the mercy seat, the place where the blood was sprinkled on the day of atonement to make propitiation for the sins of the nation. The "mercy seat" was a slab of pure gold which fitted over the top of the ark of the covenant. God said:

Exodus 25:22 (NKJV) "And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel.

The words "mercy seat" are from the Greek noun hilasterion, which means: "the removal of wrath by the offering of a sacrifice." The mercy seat was interposed between the tables of law contained in the ark, by which the sinner stood condemned and the glory of God's holy presence. An uncovered ark is a throne of judgment. This might explain a very difficult Old Testament passage.

1 Samuel 6:19-20 (NKJV) Then He struck the men of Beth Shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD. He struck fifty thousand and seventy men of the people, and the people lamented because the LORD had struck the people with a great slaughter. 20 And the men of Beth Shemesh said, "Who is able to stand before this holy LORD God? And to whom shall it go up from us?"
In order for them to look into the ark, the mercy seat had to be removed. Perhaps that explains their sudden death?
 
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Guojing

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You're placing all of Ancient Israel together (and may be even including a modern geopolitical Israel that aren't even relevant to the context).

Paul helped clarify to us that "not all that are of Israel are Israel "

Romans 9:6 ~ It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
We have the advantage of hindsight and can look back on things that were only revealed to the Ancient Israelites through Scripture. Paul is reassigning the label of "Israel" to God's truly faithful people (His remnant of the faithful from the ancient tribes of Israel and His faithful Gentile followers). Their faith is what qualifies them as being a member of the "Israel of God".

Romans 4:13 ~ For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world was not given through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Ephesians 3:4-6 ~ This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ through the gospel.

To clarify, you subscribed to replacement theology? Do you believe the Body of Christ now, comprised of gentiles and Jews who believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4, is now Israel in the eyes of God?
 
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mkgal1

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To clarify, you subscribed to replacement theology?
It's not replacement when a person recognizes that the early church was mainly formed of Jews in the beginning. I'd call my theology "expansion theology "....because the covenant expanded through Christ....and Paul sure seems to agree.
 
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Guojing

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It's not replacement when a person recognizes that the early church was mainly formed of Jews in the beginning. I'd call my theology "expansion theology "....because the covenant expanded through Christ....and Paul sure seems to agree.

I see, okay I understand your point of view. You don't see the Body of Christ as always separate from national Israel.

So for example, when you read Hebrews 8 that goes

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

You thus see the Body of Christ also included in the house of Israel and with the house of Judah?

Many Covenant Theologians I have encountered also hold that view.
 
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BABerean2

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I see, okay I understand your point of view. You don't see the Body of Christ as always separate from national Israel.

So for example, when you read Hebrews 8 that goes

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

You thus see the Body of Christ also included in the house of Israel and with the house of Judah?

Many Covenant Theologians I have encountered also hold that view.


Who was Peter talking to in the passage below on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.



Why did Paul still consider himself an "Israelite", even after his conversion in the passage below? Who were the "remnant" in verse 5?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Who was James talking to below, who were his "brethren" in the "faith"?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Faithful Israel and the Church cannot be separated in the passages above.

Who has replaced the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16?

.


 
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JM

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This thread's subject:

I would like for those who subscribe to either or both, explain/comment what those are and the difference between the two - if there is one?

Also why there appears to be such a battle going on between Covenant and New Covenant theology vs dispensationalsim?





If you have questions I'll be in the Semper Forum.

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mkgal1

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Do you believe the Body of Christ now, comprised of gentiles and Jews who believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4, is now Israel in the eyes of God?
Galatians 6:15-16 ~ It doesn’t matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation. God’s peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new Israel of God.
 
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Guojing

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Galatians 6:15-16 ~ It doesn’t matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation. God’s peace and mercy be upon all who live by this principle; they are the new Israel of God.

In the Body of Christ, everyone is equal, whether Jews or Gentiles, I agree.

But it does not follow that the body of Christ is the new Israel. That is your belief.

Others will separate that body from national Israel. As Romans 11 explained, God still has a plan for national Israel.
 
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Guojing

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Who was Peter talking to in the passage below on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant?

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.



Why did Paul still consider himself an "Israelite", even after his conversion in the passage below? Who were the "remnant" in verse 5?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Who was James talking to below, who were his "brethren" in the "faith"?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Faithful Israel and the Church cannot be separated in the passages above.

Who has replaced the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16?

.


Peter was talking to the nation Israel in his preaching in both Acts 2 and 3

Paul was talking to the nation Israel in Romans 11, when he was contrasting the nation and us gentiles who believed. The remnant who believed are from the same nation, example are the 3000 Jews who repented and baptized at Pentecost in Acts 2.

James, as you have quoted in vs1, is also talking to national Israel, the 12 tribes scattered after Stephen was stoned.

So none of those passages are referring to the Body of Christ.
 
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Christian Gedge

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In the Body of Christ, everyone is equal, whether Jews or Gentiles, I agree.

But it does not follow that the body of Christ is the new Israel. That is your belief.

Others will separate that body from national Israel. As Romans 11 explained, God still has a plan for national Israel.
It's not replacement when a person recognizes that the early church was mainly formed of Jews in the beginning. I'd call my theology "expansion theology "....because the covenant expanded through Christ....and Paul sure seems to agree.

Of course God has a plan for national Israel. :oldthumbsup: It is the same plan as he has for all peoples - that they be grafted into the vine. He is a diagram explaining 'expansion theology.'


israel-of-god.png



View attachment israel-of-god.svg
 
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jgr

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Peter was talking to the nation Israel in his preaching in both Acts 2 and 3

Paul was talking to the nation Israel in Romans 11, when he was contrasting the nation and us gentiles who believed. The remnant who believed are from the same nation, example are the 3000 Jews who repented and baptized at Pentecost in Acts 2.

James, as you have quoted in vs1, is also talking to national Israel, the 12 tribes scattered after Stephen was stoned.

So none of those passages are referring to the Body of Christ.

National Israel does not appear in Romans 11.

Paul uses the expressions "all Israel" and "of Israel" to distinguish between believing and unbelieving Israel. He defines "all Israel" in Romans 9:6-8, and reconfirms it in Romans 11:26.

Two Israels

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

"All Israel" is the Body of Christ, His Church.
 
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BABerean2

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Peter was talking to the nation Israel in his preaching in both Acts 2 and 3

Paul was talking to the nation Israel in Romans 11, when he was contrasting the nation and us gentiles who believed. The remnant who believed are from the same nation, example are the 3000 Jews who repented and baptized at Pentecost in Acts 2.

James, as you have quoted in vs1, is also talking to national Israel, the 12 tribes scattered after Stephen was stoned.

So none of those passages are referring to the Body of Christ.

You are ignoring the fact that 3,000 people from "all the house of Israel" accepted the New Covenant in Acts chapter 2 on the Day of Pentecost. The Gentiles were not grafted into the Church until several years later. The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church" as many today attempt to imply.

You are ignoring the fact that Paul used the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of both faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles grafted together into the same tree in Romans 11.

You are ignoring the fact that James wrote a letter to the Church.

You are also ignoring the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6.

Why are you ignoring what the Bible actually says?

You are trying to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology work. Any doctrine which must ignore certain passages of scripture to work has been revealed as a work of men.

.

.
 
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BABerean2

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If you have questions I'll be in the Semper Forum.

unsubscribed

Reformed Covenant Theology claims the ten commandments were given to Adam in the garden. How could Adam have committed adultery, and who would he have committed it with? How could Adam honor his mother, since he had no mother?

Reformed Covenant Theology claims the 4th commandment is eternal by ignoring Colossians 2:16-17. They claim the Sabbath has been changed from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, to anytime Sunday.

Reformed Covenant Theology ignores the contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in 2 Corinthians 3:6-10, and Hebrews 12:18-24.

Reformed Covenant Theology ignores Paul compelling the Galatian believer to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31.


The New Covenant: Bob George

.
 
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Guojing

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You are ignoring the fact that 3,000 people from "all the house of Israel" accepted the New Covenant in Acts chapter 2 on the Day of Pentecost. The Gentiles were not grafted into the Church until several years later. The Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church" as many today attempt to imply.

You are ignoring the fact that Paul used the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of both faithful Israelites, and faithful Gentiles grafted together into the same tree in Romans 11.

You are ignoring the fact that James wrote a letter to the Church.

You are also ignoring the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6.

Why are you ignoring what the Bible actually says?

You are trying to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology work. Any doctrine which must ignore certain passages of scripture to work has been revealed as a work of men.

.

.

James 1:1 clearly specify the 12 tribes.

Do you include the Body of Christ as also part of those 12 tribes?
 
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Guojing

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National Israel does not appear in Romans 11.

Paul uses the expressions "all Israel" and "of Israel" to distinguish between believing and unbelieving Israel. He defines "all Israel" in Romans 9:6-8, and reconfirms it in Romans 11:26.

Two Israels

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27, 11:1-5), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

"All Israel" is the Body of Christ, His Church.

Interesting interpretation of the term Israel. Are you a replacement theologist?
 
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BABerean2

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James 1:1 clearly specify the 12 tribes.

Do you include the Body of Christ as also part of those 12 tribes?


That would be James, who did so in his letter to believers.

That would be Peter, who did so in Acts of the Apostles 2:36-41.

That would be Paul, who did so in Romans 11:1-5.



Have you found the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6?

.
 
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claninja

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Can you show us where Paul divided the Old Covenant into "the moral law", and "the ceremonial law"?

Yes.

Ceremonial: Shadows that pointed to Christ and were only in place until the coming of Christ, the one who fulfilled them.

Christians are now free to not to partake in dietary restrictions, temple worship, animal sacrifices, cleansing, feasts, sabbaths, because Christ fulfilled these terms of the old covenant, eternally sanctifying us

Hebrews 9:8-10 By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. It is an illustration for the present time, because the gifts and sacrifices being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper. They consist only in food and drink and special washings—external regulations imposed until the time of reform.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would not the offerings have ceased? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt the guilt of their sins

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.c

Moral: God's eternal righteous standard: Love God and your Neighbor, binding for all of His people for all time. Not for salvation but for justification of our faith.

Christ fulfilled God's eternal moral standard, but Christians are not now free to lie, cheat, steal, covet, partake in idolatry.

Romans 13:8-10 Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love. For he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”a and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”b Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:13-15 For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2:16-17 If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? So too, faith by itself, if it does not result in action,f is dead.

Romans 6:1-2 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?

Galatians 5:19-20 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


What do we find below?

What are the two covenants Paul is speaking about?

Paul is talking about 2 covenants: the old covenant and the new covenant.

I think this is where it is important to understand what a covenant is.

1242 diathḗkē (from 1223 /diá, "thoroughly," intensifying 5087 /títhēmi, "place, set") – properly, a set-agreement having complete terms determined by the initiating party, which also are fully affirmed by the one entering the agreement.

A covenant is an agreement between the party initiating the covenant, and the party entering into the agreement.

The old covenant was an AGREEMENT between God, the one initiating the covenant, and the nation of Israel, the one entering into the agreement. If Israel obeyed all of the laws of moses: moral, civil, ceremonial, they would be blessed in the land of Israel (deuteronomy 28:1-14). If Israel did not follow all of the laws of moses: moral, civil, ceremonial, then Israel would be cursed (deuteronomy 28:15-68). This is the old covenant.


The old covenant/AGREEMENT is what is done away with for the people of God, after its shadows were brought to completion in Christ. The AGREEMENT for Israel to obey/disobey all of the laws for earthl blessings/curses was made obsolete at the cross, and its visible carcass or "desolate house" vanished away 40 years after.

Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.



The term "the moral law" is found in the Westminster Confession of Faith, but it is not found in the Bible.

This is not a sufficient argument, however. The term "Holy Trinity" is found in the westminster confession of faith, but not in the Bible. Therefore, we should not hold to the doctrine of the trinity, as it is not found in scripture? No of course not.

 
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claninja

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When we look inside the Ark of the Covenant, we find Aaron’s rod that budded as well as the tablets of stone. Aaron’s rod accords with the priesthood of the old system and the tablets with its law. They are in the same box - inseparable. We should not, therefore, take one element out of the ark of the old covenant and place it in with the new.

Nor should we say that the old ceremonial aspects were inferior, but the 10 commandments were not improved upon. NCT says that we are now under the ‘Law of Christ’, a vastly improved law to the ‘ten.’ When you think about it, the decalogue was an abbreviated version of what was to come. That’s how I see it anyway.

I don't think it's necessarily taking one aspect (10 commandments) out and placing it with the new. The ark is a picture of the work of Christ: the priesthood, God's moral standard, and the mercy seat. This is all found in the new covenant, the shadows are now the reality.

It's more of the that the moral codes (love God and love your neighbor) are the eternal righteous standards of God. They are in each covenant God has made, (Adam, Noah, Abraham,Moses, David, New).

When the old covenant was superseded by the new, it wasn't God's righteous standards that were superseded, I believe it was the agreement between God and the nation of Israel that was superseded.
 
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