I'm all for fundamentalism but this is too far.

Tradidi said:

Steve Ray's opinions are mine, and the Scriptures he uses are my Scriptures. I see no sense in transcribing all he said just to please you.

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E.G: You dont have any opinions baset upon the Bible, only upon "mini-Pope" Ray's man-made theories about this. Definitely no value for persons able to read and understand the Bible themselves when guided by the Holy Spirit, NOT dependent upon a priest/bishop's/pope's instructions about how to understand this or that.

For my part: Conclution drawn, discussion ended. Any further showing that's not accepted -> a report filed!

Thank you all for your objections and replies, but seeing that my replies are no longer "tolerated" here I shall stop replying, at least in this thread.

God bless,

Tradidi

I’m not sure what fundamentalism in Christianity actually means, it seems there are various interpretations of it. Simply put, being fundamental means keeping focussed on the important and core principles. I can’t see any problem with that personally, so I guess I have to regard myself as a fundamentalist, and to that end I try to keep my Christian faith simple. There are stacks of man-derived traditions out there that really have no bearing on one’s salvation, but many are drawn into unedifying arguments about them. I’m just going to do what I believe is honourable to God, and simply preach Jesus Christ crucified, and do my best to heed the counsel of the Holy Spirit from within. I don’t have a need to be taught by any human being, nor should I teach anyone other than to advise them to heed the counsel of The Holy Spirit Who has a presence within them, assuming their spirit has been brought alive through faith in Jesus.

Neostarwcc said:

Or the fundamentalist church that says that in order to follow the Bible you must tithe. Bzzt! Wrong! Not ONE verse in the New Testament says that tithing (or giving of any kind) is technically required. You want to give your church? Do so. But don't give in to this fundamentalist hogwash that if you don't tithe than you arent following the Bible it just isnt true.

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If I may, I would like to disagree with your statements, and show several NT texts about tithe, as well as offering. Will you spend some time with me on this?

1Co_15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Tradidi said:

No, you do not understand.

What makes me so certain that only one can be right is because God is One. God, Who is Truth, can neither deceive nor be deceived. So therefore, there is only one Truth.

What makes me so certain that the Church that Christ founded has that Truth, is the fact that He told us that He would be with Her until the end of time, and that He even gave Her the power to bind and loose in heaven and on earth. He would never have said that unless He was certain that His Church would always have the Truth.

What makes me so certain that the Catholic Church is that Church that Christ founded? Because it is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. No other Church is.

Put 1, 2 and 3 together and I have no reason to join an ecumenical love-fest.

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Well, at least you can convince yourself.....

News flash.... Anyone that reads the Word of God.... has the truth.

The RCC is part of the body of Christ... not "the" body of Christ. Not "the" church.

Every denomination of the body of Christ, these different groups of one religion.. following Christ.. have errors. That's because they are man made..

Christ never wanted a "religion".. He wants a relationship..

You could be born on a desert Island... and have a bible wash up on shore... and read it.. and become a child of God... a believer... gain salvation.... know the truth.... and have assurance of eternal life.

Putting a name on it.... is man's way... God could care less if you're a Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical or Catholic...

There is one thing and one thing only.. that matters when your heart stops and your eyes close here on earth and open at the feet of your creator... That one thing is... Did you believe in Him.

Tradidi said:

If answering questions and speaking the Truth is against the forum rules, I will honoured to "have my butt kicked right off this forum".

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OK....

JacksBratt said:

Well, at least you can convince yourself.....

News flash.... Anyone that reads the Word of God.... has the truth.

The RCC is part of the body of Christ... not "the" body of Christ. Not "the" church.

Every denomination of the body of Christ, these different groups of one religion.. following Christ.. have errors. That's because they are man made..

Christ never wanted a "religion".. He wants a relationship..

You could be born on a desert Island... and have a bible wash up on shore... and read it.. and become a child of God... a believer... gain salvation.... know the truth.... and have assurance of eternal life.

Putting a name on it.... is man's way... God could care less if you're a Baptist, Pentecostal, Evangelical or Catholic...

There is one thing and one thing only.. that matters when your heart stops and your eyes close here on earth and open at the feet of your creator... That one thing is... Did you believe in Him.

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I agree with everything here, except the claim that denominations are part of the body of Christ. They can't be, Jesus can't go against His own prayer and instruction, and He, and all His apostle servants, would be grieved by their development. I can't imagine how angry God must be about them. Yes, He will be supportive of individuals as they pass through a denomination or similar, but He will never be supportive of any denomination or similar man-made religious organisations.

Tradidi said:

I notice you did not answer my question. I would like to reply but people here are starting to threaten me getting banned, so I will leave it at that. I would however be happy to reply, either in a different thread, with the permission of "the powers that be", or in a private conversation.

God bless,

Tradidi

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How is it you did not notice that I answered all your questions? I'll give you a review to help you see how wrong you are: You wrote:
"One thing puzzles me about your reply. You have already told me that you don't need the Church, but what about the Scriptures? Where do they fit into your theology? If you have a direct line of communication with God, what need do you have for the Scriptures? In fact, practically everything you just said is based on your own "experiences", and not on Scripture. Why is that?"

On your comment that I “told you that you don’t need the Church I replied: “I never said that, and I didn’t” That is a reply.

On your question “what about the Scriptures and where they fit in I gave you a word the Lord told me about the Scriptures being like a text book, but His disciples listen to Him.

On you question about what you need do you have for Scriptures, that too was answered with the text book part. Or do you not understand the need for a text book if you take a class. I don’t understand how you didn’t make that connection.

Concerning things being based upon my experiences: what do you think everyone testifies about if not their experiences? Our thoughts based upon our experiences is what we talk about. Yet, part of that, as explained clearly and seemingly ignored by you is by experience with hearing the voice of the Lord.

As far as the “not on Scriptures” How did you miss the Scriptures I quoted? I counted the number of Scriptures you quoted in our posts back and forth and you quoted 3 Scriptures - I quoted 7 Scriptures You should be embarrassed by your own statement because you don’t quote Scriptures as much I do and somehow think I don't use the Scriptures and somehow think that you do! Amazing how little you notice about yourself and what wrong conclusions you also come up with.





So I used the Scriptures more than you and more importantly, I also use testimonies from actually knowing and listening to the Lord, which I have not ever read in any of your posts!

So hear is a Scripture and question for you:

Mat 10:27 What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops.

What do you hear from Him?

That is not a question I would have for Padre Pio. From what I read and quoted from a book about him, though you dismissed it because it was not written by someone you approved of, he clearly heard from the Lord. BTW, I have had and read 3 books about him and they were all consistent and complimentary of him. He heard from the Lord and spoke and did things accordingly, but I don't see that in your post.

Jn 3:11 “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

That is what we who know the Lord do, but you want to discount our testimony and don't put forth your own? Anyway, some Catholics, and not just Padre Pio but he is a good example, do clearly hear from the Lord and know Him. They have testimonies about Him and their personal relationship with Him. So they will both quote Scriptures and give testimonies. Which is why it is written "We speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen."

Yet to some Jesus said, (Jn 5:39,40) You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

It seems you worry about traditions and Scriptures, thinking that because I bring up Padre Pio as and example that somehow I should or world contact him instead of My Lord Jesus Christ. You fail to see that I was both quoting the Scriptures more than you and also was testifying about Jesus Christ. Have you never heard the Lord even tell you that someone has a problem, like a bad stomach, elbow, knee, or shoulder, and that He wants you to go over and pray for them? Then when you do He performs a miracle and they get healed by God? If you did, you would truly understand about both my relationship with the Lord and why I liked what was written about Padre Pio. He was obviously hearing from the Lord in the same way. I have seen the Lord heal hundreds of people and include me.

Luke 10:9 and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.'

Do you not know how that works exactly. You first seek the Kingdom of God like it is written. You listen for instructions from the King of the Kingdom of God. You do the things that He personally tells you. And then miracles happen because the Kingdom of God, which is a Kingdom of power has come close and so you find that Jesus was indeed working with you by performing signs to confirm the word He personally gave you. Was that not one of the verses I quoted you? 9 Mark 16:20)

Jesus Christ is the corner stone - the fundamental thing in Christianity. That is what this thread was about, right. So why are you thinking it is the church, Scripture, and not the experiences that happen from actually knowing Him? It isn't because you don't know Him, is it?

Tony B said:

I agree with everything here, except the claim that denominations are part of the body of Christ. They can't be, Jesus can't go against His own prayer and instruction, and He, and all His apostle servants, would be grieved by their development. I can't imagine how angry God must be about them. Yes, He will be supportive of individuals as they pass through a denomination or similar, but He will never be supportive of any denomination or similar man-made religious organisations.

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I think, believe, that all the different denominations have the idea, view, that they have it all correct.

They are all working in a state of good faith that they are presenting the truth to their congregations. Despite their errors.. and differences in opinions....

If they preach "Christ crucified" and that He is the one way to the Father... Then I believe that the majority of the congregation is going to have the right message to guide them to salvation.

Thus... I would consider them to be part of the body of Christ and included in the Church proper.

Tony B said:

I agree with everything here, except the claim that denominations are part of the body of Christ. They can't be, Jesus can't go against His own prayer and instruction, and He, and all His apostle servants, would be grieved by their development..

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Sure, they can. Or at least some of them can, which is enough to dispute the idea that denominations per se negate unity in the body of Christ.

JacksBratt said:

I think, believe, that all the different denominations have the idea, view, that they have it all correct.

They are all working in a state of good faith that they are presenting the truth to their congregations. Despite their errors.. and differences in opinions....

If they preach "Christ crucified" and that He is the one way to the Father... Then I believe that the majority of the congregation is going to have the right message to guide them to salvation.

Thus... I would consider them to be part of the body of Christ and included in the Church proper.

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I generally like what you wrote, but to say that other denominations that the idea that they have it all correct seems to imply that your/our congregation does have it all correct!!

If Jesus Christ is indeed our Teacher and since it is written that He reproves those He loves, then we must know that we (none of us) have it all correct!!!

Still, there is something they must have correct to be a "Christian" and that something is the fundamental part of Christianity - which seems to be what the thread is about.

That fundamental thing is Jesus Christ Himself!!!

Simply put, we are Christians because we believe in Jesus Christ. We might not, and do not have all things figured out correctly, otherwise Jesus Christ would not be called Teacher. Yet we must believe in Him and hear His voice by faith for Him to be our Teacher! That is fundamental to Christianity.

Now some would consider me a Protestant Christian, yet many Protestant Christians might refer to me as a Charismatic Christian. I am fine with all that. And I meet Protestants Christians and Charismatic Christian, (if you want to separate them) that think Catholics are something completely different altogether, as if they are not Christian. I also have meet Catholics who thing Protestant Christians are something completely different altogether, as if they are not Christian.

So what do you think I do? --- I talk to my Lord and Teacher, Jesus Christ, about this - and I am telling you that He tells me that is wrong. He not only tells me that thinking is wrong but has given me tons of examples. So who then is saying those things to me except those not listening to Him?

In Christianity, different Christian churches have lots of different traditions!! That does not mean they are incorrect, it only means they have different traditions. I have mine. I pretty much make it a tradition to get up in the morning, sit in my favorite chair and pray the Lord's prayer with some things added, like praying for our leaders. Then I set my mind and heart on hearing what the Lord has to say to me personally.

Yet if someone else seeks Him before going to bed instead of in the morning, of what concern is that to me? Perhaps they want to light a candle and seek Him? So what. Perhaps they like a handful of beads? Ok - whatever helps them seek our Lord Jesus Christ and listen to Him is a good thing, isn't it?

So the problem comes when they are making it about traditions and such yet their heart is far from Him. And that problem might be more a personal problem than a denominational problem. Of maybe it could be a general problem in a group of people, but still not apply to all of them.

Isaiah was an off-spring of Abraham, right? He knew the Lord personally, right? Yet he wrote to God's people about hearing from the Lord and not having their heart far from Him. It is recorded in the Scriptures which God has us studying, right, so it still applies, right?

Is 29:1 Woe, O Ariel, Ariel the city where David once camped! Ad year to year, observe your feasts on schedule. I will bring distress to Ariel...
Is 29:13... Because this peole draw near with their words and honor Me with their lip service, but they have removed their hearts far from Me

That is the problem many have, and perhaps most, like in the time of Isaiah. They have made it about traditions and give lip service to Jesus Christ, but they don't listen to Him. They have removed their heart far from Him.

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instruction of the Lord

So who is thinking that the church and not the Lord is the fundamental part of Christianity, except for the person who is not listening to the Lord for instructions?

I don't care if a person is Catholic or Protestant. I don't care if a person is Charismatic or very Conservative. I care that a person listens to the Lord! I don't care what traditions they have, but I do care that they listen to Him!! Otherwise they are a false son! So I do care that they understand that Jesus Christ is the fundamental thing in Christianity. He said His sheep hear His voice. He said His words are spirit and are life. So you had better know Him personally, and saying I know Him through the Bible is not knowing Him at all! He has a voice and speaks words. Isaiah start of His writing by explaining that.

Is 1:2 Listen, O heavens, and hear O earth; For the Lord speaks...

You had better keep that commandment

Deut 6:3 O Isreal, you should listen and becareful to do it.
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!
Deut 6:6 These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart

Are they? Are the words "Hear, O Isreal, and hear O earth" on your heart like commanded? Do His people actually take the time to listen to Him? Or is it just lip service? Who then says their church and not their Lord has the answers for them, expect the person not listening to the Lord their God?

The fundamental thing in Christianity is of course listening to Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit! If you don't then alsorts of silly ideas come into your head.

Tony B said:

I’m not sure what fundamentalism in Christianity actually means, it seems there are various interpretations of it. Simply put, being fundamental means keeping focussed on the important and core principles. I can’t see any problem with that personally, so I guess I have to regard myself as a fundamentalist, and to that end I try to keep my Christian faith simple. There are stacks of man-derived traditions out there that really have no bearing on one’s salvation, but many are drawn into unedifying arguments about them. I’m just going to do what I believe is honourable to God, and simply preach Jesus Christ crucified, and do my best to heed the counsel of the Holy Spirit from within. I don’t have a need to be taught by any human being, nor should I teach anyone other than to advise them to heed the counsel of The Holy Spirit Who has a presence within them, assuming their spirit has been brought alive through faith in Jesus.

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A truly excellent post!! This says it all.

JacksBratt said:

I think, believe, that all the different denominations have the idea, view, that they have it all correct.

They are all working in a state of good faith that they are presenting the truth to their congregations. Despite their errors.. and differences in opinions....

If they preach "Christ crucified" and that He is the one way to the Father... Then I believe that the majority of the congregation is going to have the right message to guide them to salvation.

Thus... I would consider them to be part of the body of Christ and included in the Church proper.

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The thing that I dislike about denominations is that they insist that their views are right and everyone else's are wrong. 1 Corinthians 12:15, "Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body.

It doesn't seem unChristian to say "Our interpretation of that is X" and suggest that other interpretations are wrong. Not SO LONG AS that POV is coupled with an affirmation that all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, regardless of denomination, are part of his church.

But when it becomes "Ours is the only true church, the original that Christ founded, and the subject of all the New Testament's references to the church of Christ," that is quite a different matter.

Albion said:

It doesn't seem unChristian to say "Our interpretation of that is X" and suggest that other interpretations are wrong. Not SO LONG AS that POV is coupled with an affirmation that all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, regardless of denomination, are part of his church.

But when it becomes "Ours is the only true church, the original that Christ founded, and the subject of all the New Testament's references to the church of Christ," that is quite a different matter.

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Absolutely.

pescador said:

The thing that I dislike about denominations is that they insist that their views are right and everyone else's are wrong. 1 Corinthians 12:15, "Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body.

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I agree that that is not a good attitude.

Most churches that I have attended state that "This is what we believe".. Not "WE are the only ones that have it right". or that "we are the only Church".

Albion said:

But when it becomes "Ours is the only true church, the original that Christ founded, and the subject of all the New Testament's references to the church of Christ," that is quite a different matter.

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AGREED!

JacksBratt said:

I think, believe, that all the different denominations have the idea, view, that they have it all correct.

They are all working in a state of good faith that they are presenting the truth to their congregations. Despite their errors.. and differences in opinions....

If they preach "Christ crucified" and that He is the one way to the Father... Then I believe that the majority of the congregation is going to have the right message to guide them to salvation.

Thus... I would consider them to be part of the body of Christ and included in the Church proper.

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.... so Jesus’ prayer and hope that we, His followers, would remain one even as The Father and He are one (and not be divided in any way), was rubbish? ... , and all the admonitions of the apostles that we should remain in one mind/unified, were merely platitudes and of no real benefit to Jesus’ honour and the spiritual health of the church ... good luck with explaining that assessment and judgement when you stand before Him on the terrible day... indeed luck is not going to help you or anyone else supportive of your approach, they need to repent of it before their day!

Tony B said:

.... so Jesus’ prayer and hope that we, His followers, would remain one even as The Father and He are one (and not be divided in any way), was rubbish? ... , and all the admonitions of the apostles that we should remain in one mind/unified, were merely platitudes and of no real benefit to Jesus’ honour and the spiritual health of the church ... good luck with explaining that assessment and judgement when you stand before Him on the terrible day... indeed luck is not going to help you or anyone else supportive of your approach, they need to repent of it before their day!

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I hate denominations. They can be divisive and hurt people when they insist that you do things "our" way. That might be a generalisation but I have been hurt enough times to know that it is, at least, sometimes true.

BUT, basically I think we are more united than we realise. We all have the same Gospel and believe in, and worship, the same Lord. Go to a Christian event like Spring Harvest, and there are Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals etc all worshipping, studying Scripture and praying alongside one another.

And I've said this before, but if we were facing persecution and someone stood in front of us with a gun and asked "Are you a Christian/do you believe in Jesus; yes or no", we'd very quickly have to make up our minds about how to answer. There'd be no time to say, "I'm a Christian but I believe that infant baptism/women's ordination/using the NIV/going to a non catholic church/speaking in tongues etc is wrong".
Or if someone came to our town and said "all Christians go into that room where you will be gassed; non Christians may go into that room and you will be set free." My hope is that we would have Catholics, Methodists, Baptists etc in the same room - all praying and encouraging one another with Scripture.

When it comes down to it, I think we are pretty much united.

Tony B said:

.... so Jesus’ prayer and hope that we, His followers, would remain one even as The Father and He are one (and not be divided in any way), was rubbish?

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No, why would you say that. At the heart of it, we all worship the same God, Lord and Savior.. But, our human way is to believe that we worship the right way and others are in error...
Jesus Prayer and hope is still there. However, man never gets it right.

Tony B said:

... , and all the admonitions of the apostles that we should remain in one mind/unified, were merely platitudes and of no real benefit to Jesus’ honour and the spiritual health of the church

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I believe that they are still on the proper path and have enough of the biblical message right... in order to serve the purpose to "go and make disciples" and "go into all the world and preach the gospel"...

We are doing God's work, even as our human errors get in the way, they do not impede it so much that God's will is not being done.

Tony B said:

... good luck with explaining that assessment and judgement when you stand before Him on the terrible day... indeed luck is not going to help you or anyone else supportive of your approach, they need to repent of it before their day!

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I have no worries about my facing my Savior. I am far from perfect but my soul is washed in His blood and I will appear white as snow due to my taking on His righteousness.


I just have a real real real hard time when someone comes on here and says that their church is the only church and all others are wrong.

Let's face the reality that we all have a goal of worshiping Christ and teaching and spreading His good news, the best way possible... However, we bumble along with our traditions and views that cannot be agreed on... all the while we have great intent to be what God wants us to be.

Just don't say to me that I am wrong.... you are right and all the other denominations, besides yours... are not a true church.