Problems with Ezekiel 38-39 as Prophecy for Our Time

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Berean, I'm glad that you support Jews for Jesus.

You seem to be preoccupied with Jerusalem. Jerusalem is not the source of all that is wrong with the world.

You quote Paul in Galatians. Paul is arguing with Judaizers. That is why Paul makes such a stark contrast with the Old Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem. The Old Jerusalem he is talking about is the ways of the Judaizers, who won't let go of old customs that are not needed. We are not concerned with Judaizers here.

Let me quote a couple of passages from Isaiah.

On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.

The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.
Isaiah 25:7-8 NIV

2 In the last days
the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains;

it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.
Isaiah 2:2 NIV

The mountain that Isaiah is talking about in both Chapter 2 and Chapter 25 is Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. When he says that Mt. Zion will be the highest of mountains, I suspect that this will be allegorical, it won't literally be higher than Mt. Everest. It will simply be the most important location in the world, and recognized for what it is. Isaiah says that God will destroy death forever on that mountain. He doesn't say that the old mountain has to be destroyed first and replaced by a new one for that to happen.


It is others who are preoccupied with earthly Jerusalem, which is found in Revelation 11:8.


Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The earthly Jerusalem will be attacked but the Lord will defend it.

`So the Lord of hosts will come down to fight for Mount Zion and for its hill. Like birds flying about, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem. Defending he will also deliver it; passing over, He will preserve it.` (Isa. 31: 4 & 5)


Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.




.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,161
1,223
71
Sebring, FL
✟657,505.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
God`s words says that the Russian Federation thinks they will `go up against a land of unwalled villages, (Golan Heights) ....and against a people who have acquired livestock and goods,...` (Ez. 38: 11 & 12)

So we see that those living in that area have livestock. We have livestock on our land here in Oz. So nothing strange there. As to swords well we know that many soldiers have a sword on the end of their gun for close combat.

If you read the prophet Joel`s account you will see that this great army do go in close formation. (Joel 2: 6 - 9) Also because of the terrain horseback will be a much better means of advancing. The peoples from the far north do like to use their horses. Not all countries are rich as the USA so their military does comprise of horses too.


You seem to think that horses would be more practical than tanks, jeeps or other military equipment on the Golan Heights. This is not true at all. The New York Times printed a photo of Israeli soldiers standing in front of a line of tanks on the Golan Heights. Six tanks are visible in the photo but there could be more. The Israelis took the Golan Heights using tanks and they still use them there today. The terrain isn't so rough it prohibits vehicles. Also, Israel isn't using tanks because they are a rich country that can afford them, but because they are more effective and practical in modern war.

If Russia invaded with horses, it would be Israeli tanks against Russian horses. I'll bet on the tanks!



upload_2020-7-8_10-27-22.png


Link
A Brief History of the Golan Heights, Claimed by Israel and Syria
 
  • Like
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So do you think Russia, never mentioned even once, is going to invade Israel and try to steal their cattle using spears and horses?
Dave, I don't think that is the weighty part of Ezekiel 38/39, to give it the literal interpretation you seem to be applying. The weighty part is that Israel is a sovereign nation again made up of Jews coming out of the from the nations they had been in exile to, back into the land.

Therefore, imo, a person has to consider the intent of 38:12-15.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dave, I don't think that is the weighty part of Ezekiel 38/39, to give it the literal interpretation you seem to be applying. The weighty part is that Israel is a sovereign nation again made up of Jews coming out of the from the nations they had been in exile to, back into the land.

Therefore, imo, a person has to consider the intent of 38:12-15.

Which Israelites found in Romans 11:1-5 are you talking about?
Are you referring to the faithful "remnant" found in verse 5, or are you talking about the Baal worshipers which have rejected God's plan?


.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Which Israelites found in Romans 11:1-5 are you talking about?
I am talking about the Israelites in Ezekiel 39:7. Does the pastor in the video cite specifically Ezekiel 39:7 or anything about Ezekiel 38-39? See if you can find a video of his on his interpretation of Ezekiel 38-39 (the topic of this thread) and post it.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am talking about the Israelites in Ezekiel 39:7. Does the pastor in the video cite specifically Ezekiel 39:7 or anything about Ezekiel 38-39? See if you can find a video of his on his interpretation of Ezekiel 38-39 (the topic of this thread) and post it.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

.
 
Upvote 0

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,811
596
Victoria
✟592,788.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Yes there is the heavenly Jerusalem as well as the earthly one.
 
Upvote 0

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,811
596
Victoria
✟592,788.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You seem to think that horses would be more practical than tanks, jeeps or other military equipment on the Golan Heights. This is not true at all. The New York Times printed a photo of Israeli soldiers standing in front of a line of tanks on the Golan Heights. Six tanks are visible in the photo but there could be more. The Israelis took the Golan Heights using tanks and they still use them there today. The terrain isn't so rough it prohibits vehicles. Also, Israel isn't using tanks because they are a rich country that can afford them, but because they are more effective and practical in modern war.

If Russia invaded with horses, it would be Israeli tanks against Russian horses. I'll bet on the tanks!



View attachment 280499

Link
A Brief History of the Golan Heights, Claimed by Israel and Syria

No, I just believe that horses will also be involved.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

.
What do you have in the way of commentary specific to Ezekiel 39:7 ?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Do you think the real Israel is only those people who call themselves Israel?
No, Jesus said; I have other sheep.....
Paul said; They are not all Israel who are natural Israelites, [Jews].... Romans 9:6-8

My people, the Israel of God, can only be people who believe in Him and are born again Christians.
The fake Israel is the Jewish State of Israel, a people who actively oppose Christianity and are prophesied to be destroyed. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18
Unfortunately, many who are true descendants of Jacob; from all the 12 tribes, DO pollute His Name.
They will be gathered, but will not enter the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes there is the heavenly Jerusalem as well as the earthly one.

Which one is found below shortly before the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,161
1,223
71
Sebring, FL
✟657,505.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
God`s words says that the Russian Federation thinks they will `go up against a land of unwalled villages, (Golan Heights) ....and against a people who have acquired livestock and goods,...` (Ez. 38: 11 & 12)

So we see that those living in that area have livestock. We have livestock on our land here in Oz. So nothing strange there. As to swords well we know that many soldiers have a sword on the end of their gun for close combat.

If you read the prophet Joel`s account you will see that this great army do go in close formation. (Joel 2: 6 - 9) Also because of the terrain horseback will be a much better means of advancing. The peoples from the far north do like to use their horses. Not all countries are rich as the USA so their military does comprise of horses too.


Marilyn,

From your post, you regard Joel 1&2 as a military invasion of Israel by cavalry, soldiers on horseback. The first two chapters of Joel describe an infestation of locusts and possibly other insects. It is insects that are eating grain and other crops, not enemy soldiers who are seizing the crops.

For centuries, commentators have thought that the locusts in Joel are insects, that locusts means locusts. Recently, some who speculate on the end times have jumped to the conclusion that the army of locusts is instead an invasion by a hostile foreign army bent on destruction.

John Gill is one of the most famous and respected historical commentators on the Bible. Below, I have quoted some of Gill's comments on the second Chapter of Joel.

Joel 2:3:
A fire devoureth before them, and behind them aflame burneth

Gill
“This is not to be understood of the heat of the sun, or of the great drought that went before and continued after the locusts; but of them themselves, which were like a consuming fire; wherever they came, they devoured all green grass, herbs, and leaves of trees, as fire does stubble ...”

Joel 2:4
The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses

Gill
“...whoever thoroughly examines the head of a locust will easily perceive that it is very like the
head of a horse...”


Joel 2:5
Like the noise of chariots on the tops of that mountains shall they leap

Gill
“The motion of the locusts is leaping from place to place; for which the locusts have legs peculiarly made, their hindermost being the longest ...”

More Joel 2:5
like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble;
as a strong people set in battle array:

Gill
“ ...as the noise of a mighty army prepared for battle, just going to make the onset, when they lift up their voices aloud, and give a terrible shout; for this clause, as the other two, refer to the noise made by the locusts in their march..."

Joel 2:6
Before their face the people shall be much pained

Gill
“... into such distress an army of locusts would throw them, since they might justly fear all the fruits of
the earth would be devoured by them, and they should have nothing left to live upon;”


Joel 2:8
they shall not be wounded

Gill
“...their numbers being so great, the loss of a few by the use of a sword, or a dart, or any such flying projectile, as the word signifies, would be of little consequence...”


Joel 2:9
They shall run to and fro in the city

Gill
“Leap about from place to place, as locusts do ...”


More Joel 2:9
they shall climb up upon the houses, and enter in at the windows, like a thief;

Gill“...so the locusts entered into the houses of the Egyptians, ( Exodus 10:6 ) ; and Pliny says, they
will eat through everything, even the doors of houses...
‘but even [we have often seen] it done by locusts; for not only flying, but even creeping up the walls, they enter into houses at the windows.’”


Joel 2:10
the sun and moon shall be dark

Gill
“... the locusts sometimes come in such large numbers as to intercept the rays of the sun.”


Link
Joel Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,558
2,480
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟290,689.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
John Gill is one of the most famous and respected historical commentators on the Bible. Below, I have quoted some of Gill's comments on the second Chapter of Joel.

Joel 2:3:
A fire devoureth before them, and behind them aflame burneth

Gill
“This is not to be understood of the heat of the sun, or of the great drought that went before and continued after the locusts; but of them themselves, which were like a consuming fire; wherever they came, they devoured all green grass, herbs, and leaves of trees, as fire does stubble ...”
John Gill was 100% wrong about this.
He was just like the ECF's and every other expositor up until now; unable to understand the prophesies. Matthew 11:25

It WILL be heat from the sun that will literally fulfil Joel 2 and the 100 + other prophesies about the Day of the Lords fiery wrath, Isaiah 30:26a clearly says it.

The Gog from Magog attack will be a literal army.
 
Upvote 0

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,811
596
Victoria
✟592,788.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But they do not say anything about Russia. Have you considered Ezekiel 38-39 were fulfilled in Esther's time?

No, because God`s word tells us the timing, the beginning of`The Day of the Lord,` which is unlike any other time on earth.

`Blow a trumpet in Zion....for the Day of the Lord is coming, for it is at hand...` (Joel 2: 1 )

Russia is the only nation in the FAR NORTH (northern quarter of the earth) as God`s word tells us. (Joel 2: 20, Ez. 38: 15)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Douggg
Upvote 0

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,811
596
Victoria
✟592,788.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Marilyn,

From your post, you regard Joel 1&2 as a military invasion of Israel by cavalry, soldiers on horseback. The first two chapters of Joel describe an infestation of locusts and possibly other insects. It is insects that are eating grain and other crops, not enemy soldiers who are seizing the crops.

`Blow a trumpet in Zion.....for the Day of the Lord is coming, for it is at hand....A PEOPLE COME, GREAT & STRONG.....` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)
 
Upvote 0

Marilyn C

Pre-tribulation.
Supporter
Dec 26, 2013
4,811
596
Victoria
✟592,788.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Which one is found below shortly before the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

.

We see that God`s word is talking about earthly Jerusalem which is under the chastisement of the Lord till He comes to deliver and reveal Himself to them.

`The Lord will save the tents of Judah first so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater then that of Judah,

In the Day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem,......It shall be in that Day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of Grace and supplication; then they will look on me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for him as one grieves for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 7 - 10)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,683
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No, because God`s word tells us the timing, the beginning of`The Day of the Lord,` which is unlike any other time on earth.

`Blow a trumpet in Zion....for the Day of the Lord is coming, for it is at hand...` (Joel 2: 1 )

Russia is the only nation in the FAR NORTH (northern quarter of the earth) as God`s word tells us. (Joel 2: 20, Ez. 38: 15)
...it doesn't get any further north than Russia.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Marilyn C
Upvote 0