hedrick

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Substitute "gays" for "black people" or "women" and see how reasonable that approach sounds.
For better or worse, "segregation academies" were considered legal. They aren't now, but they were during the period when it was controversial. I maintain that for most young people today, seeing their religion play out in firing teachers is more likely to make it clear how damaging the religion is than make them anti-gay.
 
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KCfromNC

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For better or worse, "segregation academies" were considered legal. I maintain that for most young people today, seeing their religion play out in firing teachers is more likely to make it clear how damaging the religion is than make them anti-gay.
I mean, I get the point, but perhaps there are ways to accomplish the same goal which don't also arbitrarily fire people because they're the wrong type of minority.
 
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hedrick

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There is a case before the Supreme Court now on precisely this issue. I think it's hard to know how the Court will rule. The cases before the Court involve discrimination for age and disability. The disability case is a woman who was not renewed when the school learned she would be treated the next year for breast cancer. In both cases they responded that as a religious school they are exempt from discrimination laws. But if you can discriminate for one reason you can do so for others. The issue for both that and gay teachers is the "ministerial exception."

You might say that a church could reasonably claim that their doctrine condemns gays, but it's hard to say that the Catholic faith condemns women with cancer or old people. However courts have normally not wanted to get involved in doctrinal matters, so likely if there is a ministerial exception it means that the courts won't enforce any kind of discrimination laws.

------------

I have to wonder just what review these cases got from the rest of the Catholic Church. Does the Church really want to be known for wanting exemption from laws enforcing basic fairness for its staff? Win or lose, this isn't the kind of Supreme Court case I'd want my church associated with.
 
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Swag365

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That's one opinion, yes.

And according to the ruling in the OP, Christians who base hiring decisions on the gay marriage of the potential employee are breaking the law - with the exception of things like hiring priests.

I'm not sure a teacher of secular subject is a religious minister.

I wasn't aware that the primary teaching of the Christian faith was that private employers should be allowed to discriminate based on the gender of employees.

Which Supreme Court judges are you saying are atheists?
No, the religious exception is not limited to hiring priests or ministers. The minister exception comes from the court's interpretation of the first amendment. The broader exceptions come from §2000e–1(a) of Title VII and the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993. It's explained right there on page 32 of the opinion.

The rest of your snarky comments are not even worth replying to. Have a nice day.
 
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Caliban

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This is what a person writes when he does not have a substantive response.

I see a difference between them quite perfectly. They are not moral equivalents, as I wrote.

But they share a common characteristic in that both racism and gay-marriage conflict with Christian moral teachings. In both cases the school acts properly for firing a teacher who openly embodies or endorses views that conflict with Christian moral teachings.

If you don't like that, too bad. Go teach at another school, or send your kids to another school.

Have a nice day.
If a religious school receives state or federal funding they should be made to conform to every public anti-discrimination law on the books. People should not have to avoid discrimination by teaching at, or attending a different school.
 
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renniks

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The sexual orientation of a teacher has nothing to do with their ability to teach a curriculum.

It's kinda like not hiring people with blue eyes as math teachers. What does the colour of one's eyes have to do with the ability to teach math effectively?

If religious organisations want to have only men as their top priests or such (I don't like that they can discriminate) but its their little club, they can do what they want.
But if they are going to provide a public service, such as teaching in schools then they ought to play by the same anti-discrimination laws as everyone else.
Illogical. You can't have people teaching the Bible who don't agree with it.
 
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Caliban

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Not. They are not teaching it as Truth, but as a book among many books
Sexuality is not a civil right.
Correct, those teachers are not teaching the Bible is "true." But, why would that be the best possible way to teach it. Classroom teachers teach things the do not believe all the time. If education does not challenge students with multiple approaches to a subject, they are being indoctrinated, not educated.
 
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Swag365

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If a religious school receives state or federal funding they should be made to conform to every public anti-discrimination law on the books. People should not have to avoid discrimination by teaching at, or attending a different school.
I think it is fair to argue that they should return any federal funding or be subject to federal laws.

But I don't think that argument helps you, because the law on the books exempts them. That is, they are in compliance with the laws on the books, because the laws themselves indicate that various provisions do not apply to religious institutions.

There is some debate as to the specific conduct or situations that are covered by the exceptions. I think we'll see how that plays out in the courts over the next few years.
 
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Caliban

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I think it is fair to argue that they should return any federal funding or be subject to federal laws.

But I don't think that argument helps you, because law on the books exempts them. That is, they are in compliance with the laws on the books, because the laws themselves indicate that various provisions do not apply to religious institutions.

There is some debate as to the specific conduct or situations that are covered by the exceptions. I think we'll see how that plays out in the courts over the next few years.
Correct, but I claimed they SHOULD be compelled to observe anti discrimination laws. I am aware that is not currently the law. I simply disagree with the law and would support explicit language in the law which ensured all schools observed anti-discrimination policies.
 
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Swag365

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I mean, I get the point, but perhaps there are ways to accomplish the same goal which don't also arbitrarily fire people because they're the wrong type of minority.
You keep saying this, but I do not think that many advocating that a teacher be fired merely because he/she is gay. Let's say we have a Catholic school. If a straight teacher openly endorses teachings that are contrary the Catholic Church (be those views with respect to homosexuality, fornication, adultery, or many other issues) he should be fired as well. If the straight teacher decides to shoot inappropriate contentography videos or post lewd photos of himself during a trip to Cancun, he should be fired. It is the activity that publicly endorses the conduct that is the cause for being fired.
 
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Caliban

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You keep saying this, but I do not think that many advocating that a teacher be fired merely because he/she is gay. Let's say we have a Catholic school. If a straight teacher openly endorses teachings that are contrary the Catholic Church (be those views with respect to homosexuality, fornication, adultery, or many other issues) he should be fired as well. If the straight teacher decides to shoot inappropriate contentography videos or post lewd photos of himself during a trip to Cancun, he should be fired. It is the activity that publicly endorses the conduct that is the cause for being fired.
I might agree that a teacher should not be employed if filming inappropriate contentography; but that applies to every school in America, not just religious ones. It seriously damages the teachers ability to lead a professional classroom when it is discovered by students. But, I do not generally think it is an employers business what happens in a teachers private life. You mentioned adultery, that is none of an employers business and does not impact student learning. I don't think you have a strong case here.
 
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Swag365

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Correct, but I claimed they SHOULD be compelled to observe anti discrimination laws. I am aware that is not currently the law. I simply disagree with the law and would support explicit language in the law which ensured all schools observed anti-discrimination policies.
I think that you mean that you want to eliminate the religious exemptions. How far would you like to extend that? Can a Catholic Church require that a teacher of Catholic theology actually believe that it is true, or should they be required to hire a Muslim or an atheist to teach it?

I don't necessarily have an issue with a Muslim teaching Catholic theology, but I think it is fair to doubt that a person will teach a subject in the manner in which the Catholic school believes it should be taught, when the teacher is fundamentally opposed to it. Even if a person attempts in earnest to teach it properly, I think his internal biases against it will make it difficult for him to do that.
 
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Swag365

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I might agree that a teacher should not be employed if filming inappropriate contentography; but that applies to every school in America, not just religious ones. It seriously damages the teachers ability to lead a professional classroom when it is discovered by students. But, I do not generally think it is an employers business what happens in a teachers private life. You mentioned adultery, that is none of an employers business and does not impact student learning. I don't think you have a strong case here.
Well we simply disagree here. A teacher openly involved in a gay marriage is just as scandalous as him doing inappropriate contentography, if we are talking about a Catholic environment in which people take their faith seriously. Perhaps you view it is "no big deal" but others will not. I think that is your own biased moral judgment there, you think that doing inappropriate content is scandalous, but you think that being in an openly gay marriage is not.
 
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Caliban

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I think that you mean that you want to eliminate the religious exemptions. How far would you like to extend that? Can a Catholic Church require that a teacher of Catholic theology actually believe that it is true, or should they be required to hire a Muslim or an atheist to teach it?

I don't necessarily have an issue with a Muslim teaching Catholic theology, but I think it is fair to doubt that a person will teach a subject in the manner in which the Catholic school believes it should be taught, when the teacher is fundamentally opposed to it. Even if a person attempts in earnest to teach it properly, I think his internal biases against it will make it difficult for him to do that.
I am on the side of the student, not necessarily the teacher, administration, or even the parents. A young person should not be indoctrinated in any circumstance. They should have access to any and all information appropriate for their age. After, religious schools deliberately hide or malign certain facts or perspectives (primarily Evangelical schools) Catholic schools tend to have a better record on things like evolution, for example.
 
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Caliban

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Well we simply disagree here. A teacher openly involved in a gay marriage is just as scandalous as him doing inappropriate contentography, if we are talking about a Catholic environment in which people take their faith seriously. Perhaps you view it is "no big deal" but others will not. I think that is your own biased moral judgment there, you think that doing inappropriate content is scandalous, but you think that being in an openly gay marriage is not.
Then you tell me why being in a homosexual marriage is scandalous. Times have changed; this is normal. Although, this may be off topic.
 
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Swag365

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I am on the side of the student, not necessarily the teacher, administration, or even the parents. A young person should not be indoctrinated in any circumstance. They should have access to any and all information appropriate for their age. After, religious schools deliberately hide or malign certain facts or perspectives (primarily Evangelical schools) Catholic schools tend to have a better record on things like evolution, for example.
Well you are just replacing the judgment of the student's parents with your own judgement. Why should your judgement replace theirs when you are not the person who has the responsibility of putting food on the table, roofs over their heads, and all of the other responsibilities of a parent?
 
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Caliban

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Well you are just replacing the judgment of the student's parents with your own judgement. Why should your judgement replace theirs when you are not the person who has the responsibility of putting food on the table, roofs over their heads, and all of the other responsibilities of a parent?
Because there is nothing harmful with educating young people and informing them of the realities around them. There is harm, however, in sheltering them from reality and information. Students have the right to make their own honest choices about belief and facts. How do they do that if their categories are limited or the well is poisoned in advance?
 
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Swag365

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Then you tell me why being in a homosexual marriage is scandalous. Times have changed; this is normal. Although, this may be off topic.
As one example, a man in a gay marriage is known to take his penis and insert it into a human orifice that is designed to expel excrement. This is considered perverse, it is associated with numerous increased health risks, and has no biological purpose.

Now if you want to debate that, you can start a new thread on it. Many Christians believe that gay-marriage is disordered conduct. You certainly cannot prove that inappropriate contentography is more disordered than what I have described above.
 
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