d taylor

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Semantics ?

" Jesus died on the Cross".= "Jesus Saves". "Receive Jesus as savior"

Its the same Gospel.

We have eternal life because Jesus, who IS Eternal life and THE Resurrection, is in us. "Christ in you, the hope of Glory".

Take this illustration.

A person is on a island living away from civilization never has heard of Jesus, so they know nothing about his death, and resurrection.

And this person finds, one day on the beach, a piece of paper that has floated up and on that paper is this part of the Bible.
Can this person after reading the below verses, receive Eternal Life and if this person, never again, before they die, knows anymore than what they have read on the paper. will they have Eternal Life and go to heaven

Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


Or this part of the Bible

“If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
 
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Behold

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Take this illustration.

Can this person after reading the below verses, receive Eternal Life and if this person, never again, before they die, knows anymore than what they have read on the paper. will they have Eternal Life and go to heaven

Sure.
As long as the Holy Spirit is active, He will open the inner eyes of any person to believe the Gospel.
The person in your story, has a perfect opportunity of reading, and then the Holy Spirit does His work, and the person is saved...
This person on the Island, who is alone, is in a far better situation then the person who has been going to church for 43 yrs, and is no longer even interested when the Pastor gives an alter call..
This is because this person has a seared conscience, and the "call" of the HOLY SPIRIT, is no longer being registered in this person conscience.
 
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Tradidi

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What you need to do, is go and study the NT and find out why Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, told YOU that "Christ sent me not to WATER Baptize".
You should be ashamed of yourself for quoting a bible of your own fantasies. No wonder you never gave us the reference of the verse you were supposedly quoting from. Here's a page that lists 28 different translations of 1 Corinthians 1:17, and not one single one mentions the word "water" which you have so kindly put in capitals in YOUR quote, and upon which rests your whole house of fantasies.

Talk about the blind leading the blind!

And then you even have the audacity to tell everyone that in order to understand the Bible we need to look at the context. Why has no one bothered to do that yet? If or when you do you will understand why St. Paul said that he was not sent to baptise. And you will notice that right before he said so, he also mentions that he did baptise certain people. He's just saying that it wasn't the focus of his mission, and why he was glad he didn't baptise more people than he did. That's all.

As for the rest, keep stabbing in the dark. @ViaCrucis was the only one that used his head when he said "it doesn't need to be anymore complicated than what Scripture itself already says". Indeed, look at the context, as you so proudly touted but failed to do yourself. You know what the context is? It's the verses/chapters that come before and after the one you're looking at.

What happened to Jesus almost right before the passage where He explained to Nicodemus how a man can be born again? Jesus was baptised with water, and the Spirit descended upon Him.

And what did Jesus do right after He explained to Nicodemus that we need to be "born again"? Read the rest of the chapter. "After these things, Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim: because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized." (John 3:22-23)

And it goes on in the next chapter. "When Jesus therefore understood the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples and baptizeth more than John (Though Jesus himself did not baptize, but his disciples), He left Judea and went again into Galilee." (John 4:1-3)

In fact, we don't even need to look two verses further to see Jesus Himself explain what being "born again" means: "Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

All throughout Scripture God uses "water and spirit" to start a new creation. Check out the very first verses of your Bible, it starts there: "the spirit of God moved over the waters", water and spirit. Think about the Israelites passing through water and God's Spirit in the pillar of Fire, water and spirit. Think about Noah being saved through water and the dove, a symbol of the Holy Spirit, bringing a sign of new land, water and spirit. Think about Jesus being baptised and the Spirit descending in the form of a dove, water and spirit. Do you see the pattern?

It's even spelled out for you in 1 Peter 3:20-21, where St. Peter explicitly tells us that Baptism to us is what the flood was for Noah, who was saved through water. He even went so far as to say that "baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also".

Read it, and pretend it means something else if you like. Carry on with your blind fantasies. You will never understand Scripture unless and until you have the humility to admit that like the Ethiopian Eunuch you too need someone to explain the Scriptures to you. And that is exactly why Christ gave us the Church, to "teach". Ignore the Church and you will be forever stabbing in the dark, forever!
 
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Tradidi

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Listen to the Early Church Fathers, the men that sat at the feet of the Apostolic Church Fathers, the men that sat at the feet of the Apostles themselves and were taught by them, the men that belonged to the same Church that in 397 AD decided which books are inspired and which books are not inspired, the same men we are immensely grateful to for having handed on what they too received. Tradidi Quod Et Accepi.

St. Justin Martyr
(c. 100 AD - c. 165 AD), “Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated [reborn]: in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing of water. For Christ said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ ... The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles— (The First Apology 1, 61) (Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985],1:183)

St. Theophilus of Antioch (died c. 185 AD), who first coined the word “Trinity,” writes, “Those things which were created from the waters [Gen 1] were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration(To Autolycus 2, 16) (William Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers [Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1970], 1:75)

Origen (c. 185 AD - c. 254 AD) “The Church received from the Apostles the tradition [custom] of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentary on Romans 5, 9) (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, 1:209).

St. Augustine (354 AD - 430 AD) “Who is so wicked as to want to exclude infants from the kingdom of heaven by prohibiting their being baptized and born again in Christ?” (Pecc. merit. 3, 6, 12) (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, ed. Philip Schaff [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publ., 1971], 5:244) “This [infant baptism] the Church always had, always held; this she received from the faith of our ancestors; this she perseveringly guards even to the end” (Sermon 11, De Verb Apost) (Catholic Encyclopedia, ed. Charles Herbermann, et al, [New York: Robert Appleton, 1907], 2:270)
 
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Tradidi

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What you need to do, is go and study the NT and find out why Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, told YOU that "Christ sent me not to WATER Baptize".

Even Luther, your spiritual father, knew very well what being "born again" meant:

"Here [John 3:5] Christ is speaking of Baptism, of real and natural water such as a cow may drink. . . . Here Christ also speaks of the Holy Spirit and teaches us to regard Baptism as a spiritual, yes, a Spirit-filled water, in which the Holy Spirit is present and active. . . . And thus the person who has been baptized is said to be born anew. . . . . In this passage Christ declares that whoever is not born anew of the water and the Holy Spirit cannot come into the kingdom of God. Therefore God’s words dare not be tampered with. Of course, we are well aware that Baptism is natural water. But after the Holy Spirit is added to it, we have more than mere water. It becomes a veritable bath of rejuvenation, a living bath which washes and purges man of sin and death, which cleanses him of all sin" — ("Sermons on the Gospel of St. John" Luther’s Works ed. Jaroslav Pelikan [St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publ. House, 1957], 22:283).
 
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Tradidi

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And a few more Scripture verses for you all to ponder:

Ezekiel 36:25-26 — And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh.

Titus 3:5 — Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38 — But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 — And now why tarriest thou? Rise up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.

Colossians 2:11-12 — In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ. Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.
 
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GenemZ

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And a few more Scripture verses for you all to ponder:

Ezekiel 36:25-26 — And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh.

Titus 3:5 — Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38 — But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16 — And now why tarriest thou? Rise up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.

Colossians 2:11-12 — In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ. Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead.

That makes me wonder...

You do realize that in the very beginning of the church age everything was revolutionarily and new? People like Peter was yet thinking like a Jew in many ways.

Also..take note, please, of the following. Peter did not recall the words spoken by Jesus right after the resurrection until much later on.

Jesus had said the following before the Pentecost awakening took place...


On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you
have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days
you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Act 1:4-5​


Notice how Jesus told them that a new kind of baptism was to replace the water baptism of John?


For John baptized with water, but in a few days
you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Looks like with so many amazing distractions happening around him, it took Peter some time before he even recalled those words about water being replaced by Spirit. Its why Peter continued water baptizing.

Later, Peter finally recalls those words. Ten chapters later!

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us
at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized
with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit
.’ Act 11:15-16​


After Peter recalled the Lord's words? We see no more water baptisms being performed. For Peter finally caught on to the new way for the Church age. Up until then Peter was doing certain things just as he had done in the Jewish age as displayed by John the Baptist.

Tradition often times ingrains us with locked on blinders. Yet, the Word, when accurately expounded, halts us. Then, if we are correctable? It makes us rethink things over. Just
like Peter needed to as seen in Acts 11:15-16!

Notice. No more water baptisms took place after Peter finally recalled and connected with what Jesus had said about Spirit baptism way back in Acts 1:5.

Water baptism was for the age of the Jews. Spirit baptism is for the new Church age.

John the Baptist foretold of the new life for the Church age that was soon to be manifested.

And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I,
the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize
you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Mk 1:7-8​


Spirit baptism is the new way for the new spiritual life of the Church. Of course, in the beginning of the Church age, certain ingrained traditions had been carried over without anyone giving it a thought.

People are still messing it up today. For, when they read the Bible they fail to see the big picture it contains. Its an easy mistake to make. Just like Peter did at first.

grace and peace........
 
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Tradidi

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That makes me wonder...

You do realize that in the very beginning of the church age everything was revolutionarily and new? People like Peter was yet thinking like a Jew in many ways.

Also..take note, please, of the following. Peter did not recall the words spoken by Jesus right after the resurrection until much later on.

Jesus had said the following before the Pentecost awakening took place...


On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you
have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days
you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Act 1:4-5​


Notice how Jesus told them that a new kind of baptism was to replace the water baptism of John?


For John baptized with water, but in a few days
you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Looks like with so many amazing distractions happening around him, it took Peter some time before he even recalled those words about water being replaced by Spirit. Its why Peter continued water baptizing.

Later, Peter finally recalls those words. Ten chapters later!

“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us
at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized
with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit
.’ Act 11:15-16​


After Peter recalled the Lord's words? We see no more water baptisms being performed. For Peter finally caught on to the new way for the Church age. Up until then Peter was doing certain things just as he had done in the Jewish age as displayed by John the Baptist.

Tradition often times ingrains us with locked on blinders. Yet, the Word, when accurately expounded, halts us. Then, if we are correctable? It makes us rethink things over. Just
like Peter needed to as seen in Acts 11:15-16!

Notice. No more water baptisms took place after Peter finally recalled and connected with what Jesus had said about Spirit baptism way back in Acts 1:5.

Water baptism was for the age of the Jews. Spirit baptism is for the new Church age.

John the Baptist foretold of the new life for the Church age that was soon to be manifested.

And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I,
the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize
you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Mk 1:7-8​


Spirit baptism is the new way for the new spiritual life of the Church. Of course, in the beginning of the Church age, certain ingrained traditions had been carried over without anyone giving it a thought.

People are still messing it up today. For, when they read the Bible they fail to see the big picture it contains. Its an easy mistake to make. Just like Peter did at first.

grace and peace........
Thank you for your objection. I think it is a good point you make. The only problem I see with it is that what you read into Scripture is simply not there.

When you read Acts 1:5, "For John indeed baptized with water: but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence", you take that to mean that baptism with the Holy Spirit replaces baptism with water. But the Bible does not say that. It simply says that there will be a second baptism.

The first baptism with water cleanses us, it rejuvenates us, it makes us "born again". In Acts 1:5 the Apostles were already "born again", there was no more need for them to be "born again again".

So what is the purpose of the second baptism then? Look a few verses further, where Jesus explains what this second baptism does: "But you shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8). Whereas before this second baptism the Apostles were afraid to be witnesses unto Jesus, even though they had already been "born again", after the second baptism they were filled with the Holy Spirit and no longer afraid to witness unto Jesus.

The first baptism with "water and spirit" washes our sins away and makes us children of God, while the second baptism gives us the power of the Holy Spirit to become witnesses unto Jesus. Catholics call this second baptism Confirmation, since it confirms and strengthens us to witness unto Jesus.

Your claim that no more water baptisms took place after Acts 1:5 is refuted in Acts 22:16: "And now why tarriest thou? Rise up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, invoking his name."

As for Peter remembering what the Lord had said, that does not mean that he had forgotten and certainly not that he never understood what the Lord had said. Imagine you telling your wife "when I see your pretty face I remember why I married you". Would that mean that you had forgotten why you married her? Or that you never figured out before why you tied the knot with her?

John's baptism was a baptism of repentance.
Water baptism is a baptism of regeneration, cleansing, becoming "born again".
Spirit baptism is a baptism of fire, giving us the power of the Holy Spirit and making us into soldiers of Christ.

And as I pointed out before, we also have the testimony of the first Christians.
 
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GenemZ

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Thank you for your objection. I think it is a good point you make. The only problem I see with it is that what you read into Scripture is simply not there.

When you read Acts 1:5, "For John indeed baptized with water: but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence", you take that to mean that baptism with the Holy Spirit replaces baptism with water. But the Bible does not say that. It simply says that there will be a second baptism.

A second baptism?

Now that is not what the Bible tells us...

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope
of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father

of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph 4:4-6

That exposes the neglect of proper study by many who are lazy and do not really study to show themselves approved to God. They would rather be popular with men and teach what earns their easy approval of men seeking tradition, not understanding... So be it.

After Peter realized the reality of the new baptism we see no more water baptisms taking place.

Are we to be a people caught up in traditions and excuses made by men?

To deny the Word is to deny Christ. Denying Christ who wants to make Himself at home in us by what we come to believe from God's Word.

He is not happy with what we see....
 
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GenemZ

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John's baptism was a baptism of repentance.
Water baptism is a baptism of regeneration, cleansing, becoming "born again".
Spirit baptism is a baptism of fire, giving us the power of the Holy Spirit and making us into soldiers of Christ.



Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message. The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. For they heard them speaking in other tongues and praising God."
Act 10:44-46


Those Gentiles had not been water baptized. Then much to Peter's surprise, the Gentiles (who only heard his preaching) were already filled with the Holy Spirit! Water was not required to get there!

The baptism of the Holy Spirit now takes place at the point of regeneration. Its man's traditions and ignorance perpetuates darkness that some men choose to walk in.

It was just after that incident with the gentile converts that Peter finally recalled what Jesus had told him way back in Acts 1:5!

That was when Peter finally caught on to the new Way in Christ!

For up until then Peter had been following the old system that he had learned during the age of the Jews.

Even so... Peter had the Gentiles water baptized anyway... But, then later, after Peter had the realization? We find no more water baptisms taking place.

For the New Way was finally made apparent to Peter and finally understood. It took some time to realize that the New had arrived to replace what they had been religiously followed in their past.


“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us
at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized

with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them
the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to
think that I could stand in God’s way?”
- Act 11:15-17

It took Peter quite some time. Didn't it? Up until then Peter had been ministering without the recall of what Jesus told him about how water was for then and Spirit is for now.

Are we any better than Peter?

What do we want in this life?

To know Christ more and more? To know the Word of God ever growing and being alive in us?

Or, to be refusing correction when it comes?

Who are we being loyal to? Men? Or, God's Word?
 
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BNR32FAN

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You should be ashamed of yourself for quoting a bible of your own fantasies. No wonder you never gave us the reference of the verse you were supposedly quoting from. Here's a page that lists 28 different translations of 1 Corinthians 1:17, and not one single one mentions the word "water" which you have so kindly put in capitals in YOUR quote, and upon which rests your whole house of fantasies.

Talk about the blind leading the blind!

And then you even have the audacity to tell everyone that in order to understand the Bible we need to look at the context. Why has no one bothered to do that yet? If or when you do you will understand why St. Paul said that he was not sent to baptise. And you will notice that right before he said so, he also mentions that he did baptise certain people. He's just saying that it wasn't the focus of his mission, and why he was glad he didn't baptise more people than he did. That's all.

As for the rest, keep stabbing in the dark. @ViaCrucis was the only one that used his head when he said "it doesn't need to be anymore complicated than what Scripture itself already says". Indeed, look at the context, as you so proudly touted but failed to do yourself. You know what the context is? It's the verses/chapters that come before and after the one you're looking at.

What happened to Jesus almost right before the passage where He explained to Nicodemus how a man can be born again? Jesus was baptised with water, and the Spirit descended upon Him.

And what did Jesus do right after He explained to Nicodemus that we need to be "born again"? Read the rest of the chapter. "After these things, Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim: because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized." (John 3:22-23)

And it goes on in the next chapter. "When Jesus therefore understood the Pharisees had heard that Jesus maketh more disciples and baptizeth more than John (Though Jesus himself did not baptize, but his disciples), He left Judea and went again into Galilee." (John 4:1-3)

In fact, we don't even need to look two verses further to see Jesus Himself explain what being "born again" means: "Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

All throughout Scripture God uses "water and spirit" to start a new creation. Check out the very first verses of your Bible, it starts there: "the spirit of God moved over the waters", water and spirit. Think about the Israelites passing through water and God's Spirit in the pillar of Fire, water and spirit. Think about Noah being saved through water and the dove, a symbol of the Holy Spirit, bringing a sign of new land, water and spirit. Think about Jesus being baptised and the Spirit descending in the form of a dove, water and spirit. Do you see the pattern?

It's even spelled out for you in 1 Peter 3:20-21, where St. Peter explicitly tells us that Baptism to us is what the flood was for Noah, who was saved through water. He even went so far as to say that "baptism, being of the like form, now saveth you also".

Read it, and pretend it means something else if you like. Carry on with your blind fantasies. You will never understand Scripture unless and until you have the humility to admit that like the Ethiopian Eunuch you too need someone to explain the Scriptures to you. And that is exactly why Christ gave us the Church, to "teach". Ignore the Church and you will be forever stabbing in the dark, forever!

Personally I don’t think water baptism is necessary for salvation and it does not guarantee salvation. I was baptized as a child and lived a very ungodly lifestyle until I was 38 years old when I finally submitted my life to serving The Lord and received the Holy Spirit. Most Italian mafia members are Catholics and are baptized and never repent and turn to The Lord. I believe it is the baptism of the Spirit that changes us not the outward baptism of water.
 
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Tradidi

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Personally I don’t think water baptism is necessary for salvation and it does not guarantee salvation. I was baptized as a child and lived a very ungodly lifestyle until I was 38 years old when I finally submitted my life to serving The Lord and received the Holy Spirit. Most Italian mafia members are Catholics and are baptized and never repent and turn to The Lord. I believe it is the baptism of the Spirit that changes us not the outward baptism of water.
That's like saying : "I don't believe we need to wash ourselves because I once washed myself and I got dirty again after that. And I know a lot of people like me. They got washed and now they are dirty again. Therefore, I stopped washing myself. Now I use deodorant and boy do I smell sweet!"
 
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GenemZ

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Thank you for your objection. I think it is a good point you make. The only problem I see with it is that what you read into Scripture is simply not there.

Contradict yourself much?

It could not be a good point if the Scriptures did not agree.
 
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Tradidi

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A second baptism?

Now that is not what the Bible tells us...

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope
of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father

of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph 4:4-6

That exposes the neglect of proper study by many who are lazy and do not really study to show themselves approved to God. They would rather be popular with men and teach what earns their easy approval of men seeking tradition, not understanding... So be it.

After Peter realized the reality of the new baptism we see no more water baptisms taking place.

Are we to be a people caught up in traditions and excuses made by men?

To deny the Word is to deny Christ. Denying Christ who wants to make Himself at home in us by what we come to believe from God's Word.

He is not happy with what we see....
Look at the context of Ephesians 4:4-6 and try to understand the message that Paul was trying to bring across. He was urging the brethren to keep unity.

We see the same thing in his letter to the Ephesians, who were arguing in whose name they were baptised, and who were dividing the body of Christ.

Paul was not giving a lesson on baptism itself, he was simply saying that we all received the same baptism, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and not in anyone else's name.
 
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GenemZ

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Look at the context of Ephesians 4:4-6 and try to understand the message that Paul was trying to bring across. He was urging the brethren to keep unity.

We see the same thing in his letter to the Ephesians, who were arguing in whose name they were baptised, and who were dividing the body of Christ.

Paul was not giving a lesson on baptism itself, he was simply saying that we all received the same baptism, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and not in anyone else's name.
STOP IT!


one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

NOT!


one Lord, one faith, two baptisms;


 
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Tradidi

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Even so... Peter had the Gentiles water baptized anyway...

Are you saying that some of these Christians were "born again again"?

Maybe the first regeneration didn't work so well, that they needed a stronger version?

We call that mental gymnastics.
 
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Tradidi

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STOP IT!


one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

NOT!


one Lord, one faith, two baptisms;


Please note that your interpretation of St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians and Corinthians, despite the fact that it completely ignores the context, also contains another fallacy. Why?

Because you still have two baptisms that save, one with water for the first x years, and one with the Holy Spirit for the next y years. They may not have happened at the same time in your version, but there were still two different baptisms that save. And as you so kindly pointed out, there was a small overlap between the two where some Christians received both.

How do you suppose swinging that?
 
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BNR32FAN

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That's like saying : "I don't believe we need to wash ourselves because I once washed myself and I got dirty again after that. And I know a lot of people like me. They got washed and now they are dirty again. Therefore, I stopped washing myself. Now I use deodorant and boy do I smell sweet!"

Will these people go to heaven? Adam, Eve, Able, Enoch, Elijah, Methuselah? We’re they ever baptized with water? There’s countless more examples of people who were never baptized in water who were justified by God.
 
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Tradidi

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Will these people go to heaven? Adam, Eve, Able, Enoch, Elijah, Methuselah? We’re they ever baptized with water? There’s countless more examples of people who were never baptized in water who were justified by God.
Adam, Eve, Enoch, Elijah and Methuselah all lived under the old covenant, of which the sign was circumcision. We live under the new covenant of which the sign is baptism. See Colossians 2:11-12.
 
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