THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!
- Thread starter LoveGodsWord
- Start date
- Status
Dear Jord, rest assured you will never get a straight answer from Lover. You will get many dears, and long pages and pages and pages, but alas that is it.
I will answer for her, as one of her "dear" friends.
All does not mean all, nope all only means some.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Now Fine is this post being honest? Were you not the one trying to claim that G4183 πολύς, πολλός; polus polos "the many" always means "ALL"? As posted earlier it is always context that determines application to the Greek. Detialed response provided in post # 2140 linked proving contexts. If your interpretation was true according to Matthew 7:22 we are all lost. Time to leave the gambling lady dear Fine. "Many" does not always mean "all" it is the scripture context that determines application. Romans 5 does not teach that the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life (see post # 2140), it teaches that the those who receive God's grace through faith do.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Pas radically means all.
Polus = many.
Adam1 = "many made sinners"
Last Adam = the same "many made righteous".
Pas = the radical all.
Some = tis = less than all.
Polus = many.
Adam1 = "many made sinners"
Last Adam = "many made righteous."
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Then we have the context leave out dear friend here...
The application and interpretation to the Greek word polus is always to scripture context (Compare Romans 5:12-19 to Matthew 7:21-23). Go look it up. In Romans 5 the applications context is to v12 which is all mankind (the many) - 1st Adam all were made sinners. In the second Adam (Christ) all (translated "the many in context to v12) are made righteous. The context is "through Christ; and the gift of Gods grace" the many will be made righteous which is application to the saved or saints as God's Grace is received through faith - Ephesians 2:8; John 3:16; John 10:26-27. The application to Grace is not to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming who do not believe or have no faith.
Note now ROMANS 5:20-21 [20], "And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly [21], that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
The application context here is to "God's Grace" "through Christ" which is received through faith *Ephesians 2:8 not to the unrepentant wicked outside of Christ who do not believe God's Word (have no faith). Those who are outside of Christ are the unrepentant wicked (Unbelievers).
The use of (G4183 πολύς, πολλός; polus polos) is always to scripture context and does not always have the same interpretation applications as shown earlier in Matthew 7:22-23. Romans 5 does not say the unrepentant wicked will be saved. It says that because of Christ (2nd Adam) many will be made righteous application context to the many being made righteous is "through Christ and God's "free gift of Grace" which is received "through faith" *Ephesians 2:8.
That application is to the saved not the unsaved who receive God's free gift by faith. This is the contexts around G4183 πολύς, πολλός; polus polos (the many)
Context matters dear friend. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear.
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Why is that when I was being sincere?
I wish to share something with you dear friend that I was shared earlier in this thread as I think it is applicable here and wish to ask you what you think it might mean?
.............
THE FLOODED RIVER
A man was stuck on the roof of his car in raging flooded river... He prayed to God to rescue him.
First, a man with a life saving ring swam out with a rope to offer to save him.
The man refused stating "No thanks, God will save me".
Second, a man in a boat risked the torrents to go out to the man to save him.
The man refused stating "No thanks God will save me"
Third, a helicopter came and lowered a rope.
The man again refused stating "No thanks, God will save me"
He drowned..
At the pearly gates he asked the Apostle Peter why God didn't save him.. Peter said... "What are you talking about? He sent a man with a rope, a boat and even a helicopter.... and you refused them all."
............
Now dear Jord, if you prayed and asked God to protect you from deception about the Gospel, how do you know that God is trying to do this now but your refusing His help? According to the scriptures even knowing the truth of God's Word is conditional on continuing in God's Word *JOHN 8:31-32, seeking JESUS for it moment by moment through his Word alone *JEREMIAH 29:13, not through the teachings of men or from sources outside of God's Word. If we turn to men we will not find the truth of God's Word *JEREMIAH 17:5 as the truth is only found in God's Word *JOHN 5:39; JOHN 8:31-32 as we seek it and ask God to be our guide and teacher *JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; 1 JOHN 2:27; HEBREWS 8:10-12. Please prayerfully consider dear friend these scriptures. Don't find yourself in the place of the man in the flooded river of false teachings with God sending your his help through the scriptures and you rejecting his help.
Your response here..
It is only to JESUS we must turn in order to know the truth of God's Word. Sometimes we may need to be as little Children to unlearn things that may not be biblical if we have been taught them from men and not received God's truth from God by seeking him alone for an understanding of his truth through his Word. To know God's truth is conditional according to the scriptures. Maybe God is calling you back to his Word.
Your response...
I posted GENESIS 3:1-5 of the devils claims to Eve in the garden of Eden that if you break God's commandments the wages of sin is death. The Devil tried to convince Eve that they would not surely die. When I asked if it sounds familiar it was to show the similarities between the teachings of "Universalism" and the first lie told by the devil in the garden of Eden that caused the fall of all mankind. Check out the scriptures and the teachings of Universalism that the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life. Sound familiar?
Your response here...
I went on to respond after I posted the above that I think what your not considering dear frend is that God does not force people into believing and following him. We are not robots. God has given us the power to choose (freewill) to follow him as we believe and follow his Words. As posted earlier there is too many scriptures showing that Jesus has made provision for the whole world to be saved. These scriptures do not teach that all mankind will choose to be saved. The reason is given that men love darkness rather then light because their deeds are evil and neither do they come to the light of Gods' Word lest their deeds be exposed *John 3:19. As posted earlier through the scriptures God's salvation to mankind is conditional on us believing and following what God says (too many scriptures already provided here linked).If that is your response to God's unthwartable plan I think I might leave this convo, with all due respect.
My prayer is that you may consider these scripture and have your old prayer answered. They are God's Words not mine.
Your response here...
As posted earlier God's ISRAEL in the new covenant is simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. There is no more JEWS or Greeks only believers and followers of God's Word as all are one in Christ.
"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." - Romans 2:28-29
May you receive God's Word and be blessed dear friend.
Upvote
0
Jord Simcha
Well-Known Member
- Nov 30, 2019
- 457
- 529
- 47
- Country
- Netherlands
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
I don't think you got a rope, boat or any kind of means of transport that helps me. I don't know, maybe you are the person on the roof... think about it.
............
It has been a while, 2012 to be exact, and I believe I have been guided to the truth in the meantime.
For me, that truth is universal salvation.
I could just as easily suggest the same about you and the verses I brought to the table.
No, because I don't equate universalism to any fall or leading to a problem. If you don't believe in it, you obviously do.
You're right. And there will be only few that find the narrow way, et cetera.
But the scriptures also say all men will confess Jesus is Lord.
I know that verse but I still believe it pertains to all the Jews when God says all Israel will be saved.
From the context it's pretty clear that it's about Israel the people (in my opinion):
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Upvote
0
- Aug 21, 2003
- 28,578
- 6,064
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Not quite. I think you are referring to Philp 2:10-11
Philippians 2:10-11
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess [εξομολογησηται/exomologésétai] that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
εξομολογησηται/exomologésétai. The Greek word translated "should confess" is aorist, middle, subjunctive. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility or potentiality the action may or may not occur.10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess [εξομολογησηται/exomologésétai] that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
If Paul had wanted to say that the confessing was certain he would have written εξομολογησεται/exomologésetai as he did in Romans 4:11 which is a future, middle, indicative. You may notice that in each word there is one letter different which distinguishes one word from the other.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Jord Simcha
Well-Known Member
- Nov 30, 2019
- 457
- 529
- 47
- Country
- Netherlands
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
I wasn't necessarily referring to that Philippians passage, but okay, does the same grammatical explanation apply to Romans 14:11?
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
I don't think you got a rope, boat or any kind of means of transport that helps me. I don't know, maybe you are the person on the roof... think about it.
Ok dear friend you are free to believe as you wish. I only point you to God's Word which is not my words but God's. You were the one who prayed that God would protect you from deception about the Gospel a long time ago right? Yet to know God's truth is conditional on seeking JESUS for it through his Word through his Spirit. Yet you choose not to do this but to depart God's Word and go and seek to know the truth of Gods Word from the teachings of men (Universalism) outside of Gods' Word, when it is God's Word that teaches that in order to know God's truth we need to turn away from the teachings of men and seek God for his truth through his Word and Spirit. Can you see a problem here?
As posted earlier according to the scriptures even knowing the truth of God's Word is conditional on continuing in God's Word by faith *JOHN 8:31-32, seeking JESUS for it through his Word alone *JEREMIAH 29:13.
If we turn to men and seek to know God's truth by trusting in the teachings of men instead of God's appointed way to know His Word, we will not find the truth of God's Word according to the scriptures *JEREMIAH 17:5 as the truth is only found in God's Word alone *JOHN 5:39; JOHN 8:31-32 as we seek it with all of our heart and ask God to know it and to be our guide and teacher *JOHN 14:26; JOHN 16:13; 1 JOHN 2:27; HEBREWS 8:10-12 as we seek him for it.
Please prayerfully consider these scriptures provided here. The rope, the boat and the helicopter represent the Word of God in our discussion. Your prayer is already answered by God but you do not see it like the man in the flooded river.
The teachings of "Universalism" is the first lie told to Eve in the garden of Eden *GENESIS 3:1-5. Turning away from God's Word which is Gods appointed way to know God's truth was the first mistake that caused the fall of mankind
May God bless you as you seek him through his Word
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Jord Simcha
Well-Known Member
- Nov 30, 2019
- 457
- 529
- 47
- Country
- Netherlands
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
I don't follow men, or men's teaching. I pointed to the Word of God too. We're at a stale-mate I'm afraid. You got your verses you stick to (or the lack of a certain verse), and I have mine, that clearly support universal salvation, in my opinion.
The truth shall set you free indeed. I'm not in bondage to some have-to-help-Jesus-save lost souls.
I am totally set free.
I have already found, because I earnestly sought Him, and therefore I got rewarded, as the sciptures say.
Right back at ya.
You can repeat it but I don't see the link. That's the fall, we're taking about salvation.
Upvote
0
- Aug 21, 2003
- 28,578
- 6,064
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
The rules of Grammar, whether English or Greek, hold throughout. Did you mean Romans 4:11 which I referred to?
English unlike Greek does not have a "subjunctive"mood but we express the concept with a definite or indefinite verb. e.g. "should/might bow" and "shall/will bow."
Upvote
0
The conditions for knowing the Lord =
1. Hear Him say come.
2. An awakened ear to hear Him.
3. An eye to see Him.
4. A spirit to understand Him.
5. A draw in Him to follow withersoever.
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
I am sorry dear friend we will have to agree to disagree. "Univsalism is a man made teaching that is not biblical as shown in the scriptures throughout this thread. Every scripture you have provided when context has been provided prove that they do not say what those who believe in the false teachings of Universalism claims they are saying. This has also been shown throughout this thread. Yet here we still are 109 pages and 2172+ posts and not a single scripture has been provided that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. Does this not worry you? It should as it is God's Word not mine that teaches that the unrepentant wicked receive the second death and are destroyed in the lake of fire *Revelation 21:8; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 10:26-27, (need more scripture on the fate of the unrepentant wicked? linked) not mine.
Your response here...
Sorry dear friend I am not sure how what you post here responds to what you are quoting from. JOHN 8:31-36 is in regards to some of the conditions of knowing the truth of God's Word which is to continue in it by faith not to depart the faith and seek God's truth through the teachings of men (Universalism). The result of knowing the truth will set one free indeed do you know what the scripture is talking about when it says "will set you free" or free from what exactly?
Your response here...
The above section are Gods' Word (scripture) showing the conditions for knowing and receiving an understanding of God's truth. How can one know the truth of God's Word by seeking it outside of the conditions that God has provided within his Word?
Your response here...
Not really dear friend. GENESIS 3:1-5 is the same lie that "Universalism" teaches which says you can break God's commandments and not follow Gods' Word and you will not surely die when God's Word says you will surely die....
Hope this is helpful.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Indeed dear friend no one knows Gods' Word if they do not believe and follow what God's Word says and neither do they have God's Spirit. What do you think Proverbs 28:9 and Proverbs 28:13 mean? How about John 3:16 of Acts of the Apostles 2:38 or Acts of the Apostles 3:19 mean? We should also look at 1 John 1:9 and 1 John 2:3-4 not to mention all the condititions that God has provided in his Word for those who seek to follow him. God's promises are all conditional on believing and following his Word as is our salvation (scriptures linked).
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Apocatastasis =
Jesus the Christ came to save more than a few.
Universal Salvation? Bible Supports Apocatastasis
"How blessed is God! And what a blessing he is! He’s the Father of our Master, Jesus Christ, and takes us to the high places of blessing in him.
Long before he laid down earth’s foundations, he had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of his love, to be made whole and holy by his love.
Long, long ago he decided to adopt us into his family through Jesus Christ. (What pleasure he took in planning this!) He wanted us to enter into the celebration of his lavish gift-giving by the hand of his beloved Son.
Because of the sacrifice of the Messiah, his blood poured out on the altar of the Cross, we’re a free people—free of penalties and punishments chalked up by all our misdeeds. And not just barely free, either. Abundantly free!
He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making.
He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth.
It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone." -MSG-
Jesus the Christ came to save more than a few.
Universal Salvation? Bible Supports Apocatastasis
"How blessed is God! And what a blessing he is! He’s the Father of our Master, Jesus Christ, and takes us to the high places of blessing in him.
Long before he laid down earth’s foundations, he had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of his love, to be made whole and holy by his love.
Long, long ago he decided to adopt us into his family through Jesus Christ. (What pleasure he took in planning this!) He wanted us to enter into the celebration of his lavish gift-giving by the hand of his beloved Son.
Because of the sacrifice of the Messiah, his blood poured out on the altar of the Cross, we’re a free people—free of penalties and punishments chalked up by all our misdeeds. And not just barely free, either. Abundantly free!
He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making.
He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth.
It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone." -MSG-
Upvote
0
- Jun 5, 2017
- 22,242
- 6,634
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
I am sorry dear Fine quoting the teachings of men does not support Universalism.
According to the scriptures the unrepentent wicked receive the second death because they rejected the gift of God's dear son and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God's grace and continued in sin *HEBREWS 10:26-31.
Please see post # 2001 linked on the fate of the unrepentant wicked after the second coming.
God's Word teaches...
1. The unrepentant wicked do not receive eternal life *JOHN 3:36
2. The unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9
3. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29
4. The unrepentant wicked in the second resurrection of condemnation partake of the second death in the Lake of fire *REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:7-8.
5. There is no more resurrections after the second death and no more death.
Now where is it in any of your post here that says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming?
Hope this is helpful dear Fine. Time to leave the gambling lady of second chances when there is no second chance after the second coming for the unrepentant wicked according to the scriptures.
Upvote
0
- Dec 20, 2009
- 28,368
- 7,745
- Country
- Canada
- Faith
- Christian Seeker
- Marital Status
- Married
One thing I find equally delighting as it is frightening is that God can do immeasurably more than we can imagine or think, coupled with the thought that the way we assess others, we will also be assessed.
So you believe in eternal torment and apply this in your mind towards everyone who does not believe what you think they should - God is able to do immeasurably more than you can imagine or think when he measures your measurement back to you.
So you believe in Universal Reconciliation and apply this in your mind towards everyone regardless of what they believe or how they live their lives - God is able to do immeasurably more than you can imagine or think when he measures your measurement back to you.
One can only imagine, but God will do much much more as the scripture says.
So perhaps all imaginings from scripture on this are totally bonkers and incorrect, and God will do something totally different like He did with the coming of Jesus.
So you believe in eternal torment and apply this in your mind towards everyone who does not believe what you think they should - God is able to do immeasurably more than you can imagine or think when he measures your measurement back to you.
So you believe in Universal Reconciliation and apply this in your mind towards everyone regardless of what they believe or how they live their lives - God is able to do immeasurably more than you can imagine or think when he measures your measurement back to you.
One can only imagine, but God will do much much more as the scripture says.
So perhaps all imaginings from scripture on this are totally bonkers and incorrect, and God will do something totally different like He did with the coming of Jesus.
Upvote
0
Jord Simcha
Well-Known Member
- Nov 30, 2019
- 457
- 529
- 47
- Country
- Netherlands
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
The broken and bruised products of Adam must be awakened by Him from their death domain. That awakening begins in Him, is sustained by Him and ends in Him. One does not decide to follow Jesus, He says come, you are Mine.
You may be a short statured publican who has climbed a tree to behold the Saviour of all mankind only to have the Glory One stop under your tree and say "I am coming for a visit to your house."
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
