The difference is that "following/obeying some Scripture" is not enough. You must be willing to "follow/obey all of Scripture". Catholics are the only ones that follow/obey all of Scripture.
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Depart from Me...I don't understand
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LER_Berean
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Hey Hopeful37, I praise God for this question that the Holy Spirit raised in your heart. I had this same and many other questions alike until the day that God graciously lead me to one truth in the Word that many sincere believers are not aware of.
If you read carefully, the verse says: ”Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”
I believe that “enter the kingdom of heaven” is not the same as enter the eternal life.
Eternal life is a free gift from God to all who believed in the redemption work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Faith is the only requirement here, not works.
Now, the kingdom of heaven normally refers to the millennial kingdom of Jesus Christ over the earth, a time where Jesus will reign and restore all things. And from what I understand, not all true believers will partake into it. For the criteria to participate in the millennial kingdom is “do the will of the Father”, which means obedience to His commands, sanctification. This is A time of reward for the ones accounted worthy, it requires effort, self denial, being a living sacrifice, with the eye on the prize of our calling. The Apostle Paul describes his personal efforts in 1 Cor 9:24-27, where he ends stating: “I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.” He is not talking about salvation for eternal life, he is talking about the participation in the millennial kingdom, a reward that the unwatchful believer can lose, although they will enter in the eternal life after the 1,000 years.
I hope this knowledge helps you as helped me to understand many apparent contradictions in the Word.
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Hello Tradidi, if that's what you've been told, then I'm afraid that you've been lied to (please take note of my signature line quote below from John Calvin .. the very same thing was said by Luther, just FYI).
There are "some" Protestants who believe this, though these are VERY few (and I know of no Protestant churches/denominations that teach this). The VAST majority of born again Protestants do not. Rather, we believe that someone who has come to true, saving faith, who God made His workmanship (as a wholly new creature), is created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works (NOT because of them, of course .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5, 8-10, Titus 3:5), just like the Bible says!
Our choice as believers to do good works, to live a holy, rather than sinful lifestyle, etc., is the fruit or result of our salvation (and a big part of the evidence that demonstrates or justifies our claim of salvation), NEVER the cause (neither are any of the things that ~accompany~ our salvation the reason for our remaining saved). Rather, we are saved, from first to last, because of God's mercy and by His grace, alone .. Romans 11:6.
After all, we receive "eternal (not probationary) life" from the moment that we first believe (the moment that we come to true, saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ). As He tells us plainly,
John 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
On the other hand, CINO* Protestants, just like CINO* Catholics (at least all of the ones who I've come to know over the years anyway), believe that they will go to Heaven principally because they are a "good people" who, for the most part, do "good things" (which is hardly what the Bible teaches us, of course .. e.g. Mark 10:18; Romans 3:10-12, 23).
God bless you! (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24)
--David
p.s. - our justification** is the work of God alone, though He does allow us to come alongside and work with Him in our sanctification (as we are able to anyway), and that from the moment that we are saved/justified, all the way to Glory .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13.
Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
* CINO = Christian In Name Only
**It should perhaps be noted (for the sake of understanding) that Protestants differentiate between justification and sanctification, while Roman Catholics generally do not
I believe when Roman Catholics speak of "justification", they mean what we Protestants do when we speak of both justification and sanctification..
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It may be the point of other scripture, but this one is definitely a warning against lawlessness, or not living obediently to Christ. Yes we are saved by grace, yes we are not saved by our works, but there are those of whom the apostles says:
2Pe 2:1-22 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. There is a warning in scripture against, having the lusts of the flesh, and promising liberty while in them, i.e. the cross is here so I can sin and not be judged for it. The cross is there to offer us forgiveness, not for us to live in lusts.
Now I am not saying you are living in the lusts of the flesh, that I do not know. But the bible is clear:
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
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Justified_By_Christ_Alone
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Yes that's similar to what I believe only I think it's referring to believers who have actually trusted in his finished work and didn't add to it for salvation.
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This gets into the weird "faith/grace or works?" The answer is, both.
If your spouse says they love you, but does nothing for your birthday, makes only their own food, really things or does anything for you, do they love? "But, I married you!" Yes, and???
If you buy someone dinner, and some flowers, are they obligated to love you now? Do they owe you, because you earned it? You do deeds (works), but that doesn't mean you love the person, or that earns you love (grace/faith)
Put them together: Hey, seeetie, I was walking by a bakery and smelled some chocolate croissants. I know they are your favorite and just thought you might want some."
Does he expect something in return? The other's hug, smile or appreciation is enough, because you live to make the other happy. You love the other, and the fruit of that love is the acts of kindness.
The sheep live their life in love. They love their neighbor as themselves. When they are hungry they eat. When they see another who is hungry, they feed them. It becomes almost second nature.
The goats, ooo yikes. They are Christian, they say. They let everyone know it. Have a tendency to loudly brag about their holiness, and condemn everyone else, and use that to excuse their bad behaviour as "tough love", or discrimination and injustice as protecting themselves through deceit and propaganda. They are usually the first to strike, then play the victim. In other words, the do not love their neighbor as themselves.
Thus, the God they think they worship is only their own ego, and Christ says, "who are you?"
"I kept all your commandments - I didn't kill anyone. I didn't steal. I didn't commit adultery..."
Any one who thinks those things are a sacrifice should really examine their own heart.
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Years ago, I felt the Spirit lead me to help find the lost - Christians off the path. I'm not talking someone who struggles with this or that sin.
I am talking about those who mock anyone who acts with kindness, gentleness, forgiveness, mercy. They can't just love their neighbor. They need to put a tagline on it - I love you, just hate your sin - the backhanded compliment, the insult dressed up like a compliment. They have a tendency to repel people away from them and Christianity, perceiving that the religion must turn you into an arrogant, self righteous meanspirited person. And the Christian will say, "I must being doing some right. The world hated Jesus, so the will also hate me." The world also hates Hitler. Food for thought. And such people act as if they are the judge of judgement, deciding who is and isn't going to hell.
Ever try to talk to a Fred Phelps kind of guy?
And I said, "Seriously, God? You want me to go in to the vipers' den? These peopke are viscious, and proud of it.
The Spirir told me he knew. I said, "I don't even know what I could say."
He told me he would give me the words, the Spirit would weigh on their hearts.
So, stuff kind of flowed out of my fingers, and I often said, "Wow. I wish I had written that."And it wasn't east, and yet, I was often just a vessel. I didn't really do anything.
But some Christians are harder to talk to and make listen than any other I have experienced.
But what I learned was, when you meet a Fred Phelps, meet their condrmnation with mercy. Forgive the harshness in their heart as they may have never known the gentleness in yours. Just as when a child cries loudly, you speak softly and bring the volume down. When the act defensive, show them friendliness, and bring them up. Let the Spirit guide you. Be the vessel and let the Spirit speak to them through you. And humble yourself before them, remember that they are a child of God, too.
Oh...and it's gonna hurt a little.
I am talking about those who mock anyone who acts with kindness, gentleness, forgiveness, mercy. They can't just love their neighbor. They need to put a tagline on it - I love you, just hate your sin - the backhanded compliment, the insult dressed up like a compliment. They have a tendency to repel people away from them and Christianity, perceiving that the religion must turn you into an arrogant, self righteous meanspirited person. And the Christian will say, "I must being doing some right. The world hated Jesus, so the will also hate me." The world also hates Hitler. Food for thought. And such people act as if they are the judge of judgement, deciding who is and isn't going to hell.
Ever try to talk to a Fred Phelps kind of guy?
And I said, "Seriously, God? You want me to go in to the vipers' den? These peopke are viscious, and proud of it.
The Spirir told me he knew. I said, "I don't even know what I could say."
He told me he would give me the words, the Spirit would weigh on their hearts.
So, stuff kind of flowed out of my fingers, and I often said, "Wow. I wish I had written that."And it wasn't east, and yet, I was often just a vessel. I didn't really do anything.
But some Christians are harder to talk to and make listen than any other I have experienced.
But what I learned was, when you meet a Fred Phelps, meet their condrmnation with mercy. Forgive the harshness in their heart as they may have never known the gentleness in yours. Just as when a child cries loudly, you speak softly and bring the volume down. When the act defensive, show them friendliness, and bring them up. Let the Spirit guide you. Be the vessel and let the Spirit speak to them through you. And humble yourself before them, remember that they are a child of God, too.
Oh...and it's gonna hurt a little.
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Hello Tradidi, if that's what you've been told, then I'm afraid that you've been lied to (please take note of my signature line quote below from John Calvin .. the very same thing was said by Luther, just FYI).
There are "some" Protestants who believe this, though these are VERY few (and I know of no Protestant churches/denominations that teach this). The VAST majority of born again Protestants do not. Rather, we believe that someone who has come to true, saving faith, who God made His workmanship (as a wholly new creature), is created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works (NOT because of them, of course .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5, 8-10, Titus 3:5), just like the Bible says!
Our choice as believers to do good works, to live a holy, rather than sinful lifestyle, etc., is the fruit or result of our salvation (and a big part of the evidence that demonstrates or justifies our claim of salvation), NEVER the cause (neither are any of the things that ~accompany~ our salvation the reason for our remaining saved). Rather, we are saved, from first to last, because of God's mercy and by His grace, alone .. Romans 11:6.
After all, we receive "eternal (not probationary) life" from the moment that we first believe (the moment that we come to true, saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ). As He tells us plainly,
John 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
On the other hand, CINO* Protestants, just like CINO* Catholics (at least all of the ones who I've come to know over the years anyway), believe that they will go to Heaven principally because they are a "good people" who, for the most part, do "good things" (which is hardly what the Bible teaches us, of course .. e.g. Mark 10:18; Romans 3:10-12, 23).
God bless you! (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24)
--David
p.s. - our justification** is the work of God alone, though He does allow us to come alongside and work with Him in our sanctification (as we are able to anyway), and that from the moment that we are saved/justified, all the way to Glory .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:12-13.
Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
* CINO = Christian In Name Only
**It should perhaps be noted (for the sake of understanding) that Protestants differentiate between justification and sanctification, while Roman Catholics generally do not
.
Hello David,
Thank you for your effort.
The problem I see with your reply is that it is not based on Scripture at all, but on your Protestant traditions. I am referring in particular to the sola scriptura and sola fide traditions, which are not based on Scripture but rather forced or twisted into the Scriptures by men like Luther and Calvin.
I'd love to discuss the sola scriptura fallacy with you, but since you mentioned sola fide I will stick to that for now.
So, let's start with looking at the quote from St. Paul's letter to the Romans (Romans 4:5) you gave to support the sola fide theory.
A text without a context is a pretext. When trying to understand what St. Paul was saying, and more importantly, what he was not saying, we need to look at the context and answer a few questions first. Who was St. Paul writing to? Why was he writing to them? Were there any particular problems he was trying to straighten out?
St. Paul was writing to the Christians in Rome, some of whom were converts from paganism and some of whom were former Jews. The former Jews among them still held to some very Jewish beliefs, which they tried to incorporate into their newfound religion and which they sometimes tried to impose on the other Christians. It was these Jewish beliefs that St. Paul was trying to correct. In the example we're looking at, it was the Jewish notion that salvation comes through "works of the law", which these former Jews understood to be things like circumcision, food laws, Sabbath laws, the ceremonial laws, etc. To a Jew under the old covenant, in order to be saved, one had to observe what they called "the works of the law". A Christian under the new covenant was no longer bound by those "works of the law", but their salvation was based on faith in Christ and a new kind of works, i.e. repentance, baptism, declaring with our mouths, perseverance, etc.. in short, being "doers of the word and not hearers only" (James 1:22).
So, to interpret Romans 4:5 (and others) to mean that St. Paul was condemning (or declaring as non essential) "works" in general is simply false. In fact, in the same epistle to the Romans, we see St. Paul teaching the exact opposite, i.e. that works justify us (Romans 4:13) and that we will be rewarded according to our works (Romans 4:6).
There's an excellent presentation by Steve Ray on sola fide, which I highly recommend to anyone who loves the truth: By Faith Alone
Steve Ray's talk also deals nicely with the error you make in referring to John 5:24 in order to try and justify sola fide. You manage to read the word 'believe' but you fail to understand what it means. The devils believe as well, yet their belief avails them nothing. Believing is a verb, something we do, not once but habitually. St. James is very clear about this, which is why Luther didn't like that book and wanted to rip it out of his Bible.
James 2:14: What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
James 2:17: So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
James 2:24: Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
It is beyond me how an honest truth seeker can read these verses and come to the opposite conclusion.
Now I realise that this discussion does not directly deal with my initial statement that Protestants "believe on the Son and then do whatever they like", but at the end of the day, that's what it boils down to when you throw out some books of the Scriptures, prune the ones that are left, add a word here or there, twist the meaning of words and most important of all, ignore and despise the Church that God Himself founded and authorised to "teach all nations". At the end of the day, Protestantism is just a smorgasboard religion, where each and every man has to pick and choose his own menu according to his own fancies. Some people may pick a lot of healthy veges, some may pick just the fried potatoes, some pick just the dessert, but only Catholics take the whole menu.
God bless,
Tradidi
PS: Here's an excellent short article on the context of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans:
Historical Context and Overview of St. Paul’s Letter to Romans
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Those verses were spoken to the Jews, specifically to the Rabbis and false teachers (modern-day pastors) who were (and still are) leading people astray by their false teachings.
While works are evidence of the existence of true faith (James 2:18) it is faith that is the requirement for salvation (John 6:28-29). We cast all our cares upon Him (I Peter 5:7). That is the faith false teachers lack, specifically, to teach John 6:28-29.
They often think doing x, y, and z will save them, but Jesus said no, the work of God is singular, to believe in the One WHO was sent.. Our Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation. It is HIS work that saves, not your own.. your work is out of a heart of love for what He's already done for you.
The Pharisees and Sadducees were always picking apart the minutiae of the law, but they failed with the heart of it...
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The name of Jesus causes demons to flee, not those using it. The exorcisms are real but the exorcists many times are not saved according to fruits they bear.
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God have mercy on me. A sinner! Reading that verse section of Revelations always makes me get apprehensive about my standing with Jesus Christ. I am such an imperfect sinful person and it pains me that I can't just consistently get it right with God!! Anybody else who does that? Is it the normal Christian walk to feel this way? I struggle with certain sins often and they trip me up often too!
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Soyeong
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The Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to express His nature so that we can know and be known by Him, or in other words, so that we can know how to grow a relationship with Him. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they had not known God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness. In 1 John 2:3, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is defined as the transgression of God's law and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen or known him.
The problem is that people can still obey the Mosaic Law while neglecting to expressing steadfast love, justice, righteousness, and other aspects of God's nature, and thus neglect to know and be known by God, such as in Matthew 23:23, where Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. This is why the people in Matthew 7:21-23 were doing good things that were in accordance with the Mosaic Law, yet Jesus still said that he would tell those who were workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.
In John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you suppose that in them you have eternal life. It is these that testify about Me. 40 Yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life!
In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus said that if we want to enter life, then obey the commandments, so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures and the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, however, they needed needed to come to Christ through recognizing that the goal of everything in the Scriptures is to testify about how to grow in a relationship with him. In Philippians 3:8-9, Paul was in the same boat as the Pharisees, where he had been obeying the Mosaic Law without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted it all as rubbish. In Romans 10:4, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so the whole goal of obeying the Mosaic Law is to grow in a relationship with Christ for righteousness and eternal life.
In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to do good works in obedience to His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation, and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it looks like to receive it. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God’s law looks like. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so if we believe in the grace of Jesus on the cross, then we will become zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Acts 21:20) and will not diminish what he did for us by returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from. So while we do not earn our salvation by obeying the Mosaic Law, it is also true that we are not saved from living in disobedience to it while refusing to repent and obey it through faith.
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SeekingGloryOnThisJourney
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Works say something about salvation but are not themselves salvation.
This is confusing, but here:
If we have faith and believe that Jesus Christ died for us, then the next day we just go and sin more and more, without a doubt, but say “We are Christians! Christ died for us!”
Say a prayer, but sin more without a care, are they really a Christian?
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LER_Berean
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Hey Alan650, I believe that ultimately you need to examine yourself according to the Scriptures.
However, the fact that you have this concern is a good sign. Did you believe in the redemption work of Jesus Christ on the cross? Jesus gave his life to pay our debt, to free us from the slavery of sin. God raised Him from the dead and made a way for all of us to have a new life, free from the bondage of sin. We have the possibility now to let the Holy Spirit who is dwelling inside of us to give us strength to do all that God commanded, including mortify the flesh.
You mentioned that you “can’t consistently get it right with God”. If you have the Holy Spirit inside of you, ask Him to give you guidance and strength. The scripture says that God will not let us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. 1Cor 10:13. Do not keep trying with the strength of the flesh. The Holy Spirit inside of you is the way.
Hope this understanding blesses you, as it has been a blessing to me.
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Imho, you are falling into a trap that many churches and Christians set up for you. They make the Gospel and walk with Jesus all about sin, and not about love. Then, the will expect you to be sinless, and feel bad that you are imperfect.
Christ didn't command us to be perfect, but to love our neighbor as ourselves, and when you love your neighbor, you have loved God, and obeyed God, because all of the commandments are fulfilled in these two laws.
Christ thanks the sheeo for feeding him when hungry and ckothing him when poir, not being perfect, not obeying the commandments (which people pick and choose, usually to condemn or burden others.) He doesn't give kudos to the Pharisees for knowing how much of their herbs to tithe because they don't focus on mercy, love and forgiveness.
Here's some good news - everyone has flaws. Someone, even a friend, may lash out in anger and hurt you - sin. And only through his sin would you learn forgiveness, and understand being forgiven.
You are more use to God approaching a nonbeliever, acknowledging that you sin, although you try your best, by humbling yourself before them, rather than acting self righteous.
What good will it do on judgement, when God says, "what did you do with your life" if all you can say is "*I didn't steal, I didn't kill, I didn't lie" rather than, "I shopped for elderly neighbors during Covid19. My family spent a vacation building Habitat for Humanity. I comforted someone going through a tough time. I loved others as you loved me as a way of saying thank you "
That is what it is all about. One must become like a child to enter the kingdom because if how easy it is to do, by acting in love.
I can already hear the response "so you are saying it is ok to so sin?" Ugh. Ask yourself, is lying to my neighbor loving them - do I want to be loved?" But if all one does is refrain - thou shalt not" and does not focus on love, mercy, forgiveness and grace, they have missed the entire point
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Unfortunately, most Christians will tell you is what you will want to hear in regards to Matthew 7:21-23.
But in the same chapter, Jesus said,
“Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:14).
Most today teach that you can sin and still be saved on some level all because you have a belief alone on Jesus for salvation. This runs contrary to the narrow way.
Jesus said we need to do the will of the Father in Matthew 7:21.
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).
What is the will of the Father?
Well, I am sure some will quote John 6:29 (and this is true), but they also need to quote 1 Thessalonians 4:3 that also says,
“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).
So the will of God or the Father is our Sanctification. This is to live holy by the power of God working through us because it is referring to “abstaining from fornication” as a part of the context.
Matthew 7:26-27 says,
26 “And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:26-27).
Okay, this passage is also in context to Matthew 7:23. It says that the person who does not DO what Jesus says is like unto a foolish man who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Here is a picture to give you an illustration of this.27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:26-27).
Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. So sure, we need to first believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior, believing that He died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later, and we need to seek forgiveness with Jesus by way of prayer towards Him (Romans 10:13) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9), but we also need to enter the Sanctification Process afterwards. For God has chosen us to salvation by two things according to
2 Thessalonians 2:13.
#1. A belief in the truth.
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (living holy by God's power).
For in Matthew 13:41-42, it essentially says that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of...
HIS KINGDOM all who offend (make others to stumble into sin) and or who work iniquity (lawlessness), and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). For if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die (in the second death), but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin), we will live (live eternally) (See: Romans 8:13). For a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
Side Note:
Most are confused on this topic because they are unaware that Paul was arguing against “Circumcision Salvationism” (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1, etc). “Circumcision Salvationism” is the heresy or false belief that said that a male believer had to be circumcised in order to be initially saved. If they believed this false belief, they would be making Law Alone Salvationism the basis of their salvation and not God's grace through faith in Christ. So when Paul mentions how we are not saved by works in Ephesians 2:3, he is referring to the 1st aspect of the salvation process in being saved by God's grace and he is referring to how that aspect of salvation is not based on Works Alone (without His grace). The same is true for Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:3-5. These verses are again referring to the 1st aspect of salvation of being saved by God's grace (Which is without the deeds of the Law), and they are not referring to the Sanctification Process that follows after being saved by God's grace. Also, we are not under the 613 Laws of Moses, but we are New Covenant believers and follow the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. So Paul was also speaking about how we cannot be justified by following the Old Testament Law of Moses, too. Sure, many laws between the two covenants (or two testaments) appears to be the same, but there are also many differences between them, as well.
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It may be the point of other scripture, but this one is definitely a warning against lawlessness, or not living obediently to Christ. Yes we are saved by grace, yes we are not saved by our works, but there are those of whom the apostles says:
2Pe 2:1-22 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
There is a warning in scripture against, having the lusts of the flesh, and promising liberty while in them, i.e. the cross is here so I can sin and not be judged for it. The cross is there to offer us forgiveness, not for us to live in lusts.
Now I am not saying you are living in the lusts of the flesh, that I do not know. But the bible is clear:
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
I was raised Lutheran and before Communion, our pastor read this:
1 John: 1
[8] If we say that we have no sin, wedeceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
There was time to ask forgiveness for things we have done, and things we have left undone, as well as those we need to reconcile with and ask forgiveness, and those who have sinned against us that we need to forgive.
I have been in an argument and said something very cruel to a friend. I later told them how sorry I was, how I was acting selfishly and childish. My friend forgave me. Does that mean I can't trash talk my friend?
If I think it does, I don't treat that person as a friend.
But when you say, "ok, I forgive you, no one says wooooohoooo I'm going to do it again! No one.
So I don't understand how thinking one is forgiven gives you a license to sin, or why you would want to become a Christian to sin. I think it isn't a thing.
Then there are those that are forgiven, then point fingers at another and say, "you sin!" When you say that as much as we try, all fall short of the glory of God, they admit they sin, but it is unintentional. I believe that is a lie, it is the believer refusing to admit the have free will, and choose to lue, for example, but rather, do it by accident, against their will, or blame the devil.
And finally, there are those who claim the do not sin, as the bible commands. I have a very hard time believing any human being has reached sinlessness, and if it is true, he no longer needs Christ. My concern is such believers now see themselves as righteous, oerfect, as others as unrighteous, imperfect. They will never say they are sorry because they never sin against another.
I get that we are no under the law, but that doesn't mean we stumble and sin occasionally, and to expect others to be perfect is setting them up for failure because it is an unreal expectation.
I keep trying to improve myself, but because I can acknowledge my imperfections, I can humble myself before others, and forgive them as I am forgiven by the Father.
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Well, we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification (See: John 5:24, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and James 2:24).
Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue because even the servant who was faithful over a little was told to enter the joy of His Lord in the parable of the Talents in Matthew 25. Yet, in that same parable, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. Therefore, we do need to meet the bare minimum requirement of living holy by the power of God working in us.
1 John 5:16-17 talks about how there is a sin that does not lead unto death. While the chapter is referring to confessed sin to be forgiven of such sin and to overcome it with the prayers of his fellow believers, I believe sins unto death can extend to other minor transgressions or faults (like not being baptized in this life, or like when Paul disobeyed the Spirit in going to Jerusalem).
Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire). These sins would be the type of sins that the Bible mentions that are attached with warnings of condemnation and hellfire, etc.; This would be like: murder, lyng, hating, adultery, fornication, theft, idolatry, etc.
Many believers also want confirmation bias of things in order to believe a Christian can live holy. They want to see believers living holy in order to believe in such a doctrine that the Bible plainly teaches. But faith does not work like that. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (See: Hebrews 11:1).
I mean, do you think that maybe the unrighteous wicked people during the global flood may have taunted Noah (a preacher of righteousness) that nobody could live holy or righteous at that time, too? After all, only Noah and his family were spared. Yet, the whole world was wicked at that time and they perished on the account of their wickedness (See: 2 Peter 2:6-7). It is quite possible that the wicked men who listened to Noah preach about righteousness may have mocked him by saying that they do not know of any neighbor who lives righteously; And if so, then history would be repeating itself today.
Jesus talked about how it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Meaning, 2 Timothy 3:1-9. It's happening right now. But many believers appear to not see what this passage says (Among many other passages).
I mean, have you ever considered that Matthew 13:41-42 is a warning to believers being punished in hell fire if they live unholy and or if they justify sin on some level?
In Matthew 13:41-42, Jesus said that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend (i.e. to make to stumble or sin) and those who work lawlessness or iniquity, and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire)?
I mean, why on Earth would Jesus warn us against how sin can destroy our soul in hell fire if such a thing was not possible? (See: Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if you don't forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Stop and think. How is the popular view of salvation consistent with the whole counsel of God's Word? The Bible condemns Belief Alone-ism. For James says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue because even the servant who was faithful over a little was told to enter the joy of His Lord in the parable of the Talents in Matthew 25. Yet, in that same parable, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. Therefore, we do need to meet the bare minimum requirement of living holy by the power of God working in us.
1 John 5:16-17 talks about how there is a sin that does not lead unto death. While the chapter is referring to confessed sin to be forgiven of such sin and to overcome it with the prayers of his fellow believers, I believe sins unto death can extend to other minor transgressions or faults (like not being baptized in this life, or like when Paul disobeyed the Spirit in going to Jerusalem).
Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire). These sins would be the type of sins that the Bible mentions that are attached with warnings of condemnation and hellfire, etc.; This would be like: murder, lyng, hating, adultery, fornication, theft, idolatry, etc.
Many believers also want confirmation bias of things in order to believe a Christian can live holy. They want to see believers living holy in order to believe in such a doctrine that the Bible plainly teaches. But faith does not work like that. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (See: Hebrews 11:1).
I mean, do you think that maybe the unrighteous wicked people during the global flood may have taunted Noah (a preacher of righteousness) that nobody could live holy or righteous at that time, too? After all, only Noah and his family were spared. Yet, the whole world was wicked at that time and they perished on the account of their wickedness (See: 2 Peter 2:6-7). It is quite possible that the wicked men who listened to Noah preach about righteousness may have mocked him by saying that they do not know of any neighbor who lives righteously; And if so, then history would be repeating itself today.
Jesus talked about how it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Meaning, 2 Timothy 3:1-9. It's happening right now. But many believers appear to not see what this passage says (Among many other passages).
I mean, have you ever considered that Matthew 13:41-42 is a warning to believers being punished in hell fire if they live unholy and or if they justify sin on some level?
In Matthew 13:41-42, Jesus said that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth His angels and gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend (i.e. to make to stumble or sin) and those who work lawlessness or iniquity, and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire)?
I mean, why on Earth would Jesus warn us against how sin can destroy our soul in hell fire if such a thing was not possible? (See: Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if you don't forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Stop and think. How is the popular view of salvation consistent with the whole counsel of God's Word? The Bible condemns Belief Alone-ism. For James says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Hebrews 5:9 essentially says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
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UMass researcher finds most people lie in everyday conversation
I remember a number of studies like this, TEDTalks ssying most people lie at least 6 times a day, etc. There are not necessarily malicious. When you call for someone who is going to the bathroom, I will tell you they are taking a shower. When a homeless person asks if you have any spare change, many people well say, "Sorry, I don't" rather than saying they don't want to give them money because they will use it for drugs, or they don't want to give them the 67 cents in their pocket because they didn't work for it. It is fairly common.
Sometimes, people lie to gain favor. Trump said, "Nobody reads tje bible than me." He can't quote one verse. As a teacher, that's the "I didn't read it" response.
So, lying is common in most people, while People of the Lie suggested some people lie all the time to get what they want, and you can tell fron their energy. They have a tendency to contradict themselves, so must tell more lies.,
But if lying leads to the second death, all of us are going to hell.
I have heard Christians who say, "I don't sin." That's a lie.
"I don't intentionally sin." It's caed free will. That's a lie.
Scott Lively brought a Powerpoint presentation to Uganda, using debunked "facts" from Paul Cameron, thus, lying, in the form of Propaganda, which led to the criminalization of homosexuality in Uganda and a death penalty, then claims not to be responsible for the violence towards glbtq or the death penalty, despite using/misusing Leviticus, and claims he went to Uganda to preach the Gospel and love of Jesus. He tied homosexuals to masterminding the Holocaust in the Pink Swastika. And yet, calls himself Christian.
I believe the latter examples don't follow "Love your neighbor as yourself," and this, does not follow Christ. I am unclear how anyone with the Holy Spirit can work so hard to perpetuate "facts" that have been proven false that leads to great harm, even death to their neighbor, and yet, no outcry. Silence.
As a result, younger people see such Christians as liars, as cruel and unloving, judgemental yet forgiving of themselves, and using children to support discrimination (Anita Bryant's Save the Children campaign was an example to justify discrimination of glbtq in employment, housing, and healthcare.)
They misrepresent God and Christ.
So, either there is some acknowledgement that we sin, or lie for example simply by our human nature even when we do our best to be honest, thus, we are "unrepentant" so all going to hell
or we can acknowledge that we are sinners, but forgiven, putting us on the same level as others, and only enter heaven by God's mercy, ackowledging we don't deserve it
or
outspoken Christians that blatantly lie, and justify their lies, that harm others, have a hall pass because lying for Jesus, discouraging homosexuality is and emd justifying the means
or
someone like Scott Lively is an example of a goat. "Didn't I evangelize in Uganda for you?" And the HS tells me that these people suffer the worst judgement, and are enemies of God.
Another question:
Through the centuries, the bible has both been used and misused, and while one can look to the bible for guidance, should one also consult the Holy Spirit? Prayer isn't a monologue, but a dialogue.
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Works/Obedience are the fruit of salvation and not what saves us. If a Christian displays no fruit like my Calvinist brothers have said in this thread than Christ does not "know" them because he doesnt have an intimate relationship with these people. For if God had an intimate relationship with them they would display fruit because part of the Holy Spirits job in us is to guide us towards our sanctification and ultimately our glorification.
We are not saved to continue on sinning for the rest of eternity. We are saved to ultimately be Holy, sinless, servants of God. A lot of Christian's today have forgotten that point. Our goal in this life is to serve Christ through works that he planned for us to do and to grow further and further into our sanctification with each passing day. But with the free grace movement currently going on in our church today it seems like more and more Protestants are forgetting why God saves us in the first place. We are saved to be servants of God not to "do whatever we please because God died for every single one of our sins."
That is NOT what Luther meant when he came up with the idea of Sola Fide. Yes we are saved by faith and faith alone, but the faith that saves is NEVER alone. Its "Christians" like that that Christ is going to reject on the last day. I hope I cleared that up.
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