Trump drops it -ICE: Foreign students must attend in-person classes to remain legally in the US

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,215
36,534
Los Angeles Area
✟828,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
The cruelty is the goal.

(I can certainly many students desperately wanting to be back in NZ or Canada rather than in the US, but making it mandatory is hardly considerate to people with their own individual circumstances.)

International students must take classes in person to stay in the country legally this fall, ICE announces

University officials scrambled Monday to adapt to new federal guidance that does not allow international students to stay in the country if they are taking classes online only. It also left some students expressing fears on social media that they risked being suddenly deported.

“Our institutions right now are struggling to figure out what the fall is going to look like, how best to serve their students, while keeping everybody safe,” said Sarah Spreitzer, director of government relations for the American Council on Education. “This is just going to make things more complicated. ”

When universities rapidly shut down this spring in response to the coronavirus pandemic — many in response to governors’ orders — federal agencies granted flexibility to existing requirements that international students must take classes in person. The major associations of universities had asked federal officials to extend that flexibility into the fall, as the continued spread of the disease has led many schools to offer classes online only in an effort to prevent further spread of the disease.

On Monday, the federal Student and Exchange Visitor Program announced, “The U.S. Department of State will not issue visas to students enrolled in schools and/or programs that are fully online for the fall semester nor will U.S. Customs and Border Protection permit these students to enter the United States."

“Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status,” the announcement said. “If not, they may face immigration consequences including, but not limited to, the initiation of removal proceedings.”

University leaders have many questions, including what this might mean for graduate students, several people said.

“If their labs close and they’re not able to work full time on dissertation research … do they have to leave the country?” Boroughs asked. “We know there are many PhD candidates who are involved in critical research to respond to this covid pandemic.”

spiffy

---

Harvard and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology on Wednesday sued the Trump administration over its guidance not allowing foreign students to take online-only courses in the US this fall semester.

Harvard announced earlier this week that all course instruction will be delivered online, including for students living on campus. In a statement provided to CNN, the university said the guidance stands to affect approximately 5,000 international students.

"The order came down without notice—its cruelty surpassed only by its recklessness. It appears that it was designed purposefully to place pressure on colleges and universities to open their on-campus classrooms for in-person instruction this fall, without regard to concerns for the health and safety of students, instructors, and others," Harvard University President Larry Bacow said.

--

ETA2

The Trump administration has rescinded its policy that would bar international students who only take online courses from staying in the US, a federal judge announced Tuesday in Boston.

The decision comes a little over a week after Immigration and Customs Enforcement announced that students at schools offering only online courses due to the coronavirus pandemic would need to either leave the US or transfer schools.

One person familiar with the matter told CNN the White House has felt the blowback to the proposal and that some inside the West Wing believe it was poorly conceived and executed.

Cruel, poorly conceived and executed. There's an epitaph for 2016-2020.

 
Last edited:

Arc F1

Let the righteous man arise from slumber
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
3,735
2,156
Kentucky
✟146,863.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The cruelty is the goal.

(I can certainly many students desperately wanting to be back in NZ or Canada rather than in the US, but making it mandatory is hardly considerate to people with their own individual circumstances.)

International students must take classes in person to stay in the country legally this fall, ICE announces

University officials scrambled Monday to adapt to new federal guidance that does not allow international students to stay in the country if they are taking classes online only. It also left some students expressing fears on social media that they risked being suddenly deported.

“Our institutions right now are struggling to figure out what the fall is going to look like, how best to serve their students, while keeping everybody safe,” said Sarah Spreitzer, director of government relations for the American Council on Education. “This is just going to make things more complicated. ”

When universities rapidly shut down this spring in response to the coronavirus pandemic — many in response to governors’ orders — federal agencies granted flexibility to existing requirements that international students must take classes in person. The major associations of universities had asked federal officials to extend that flexibility into the fall, as the continued spread of the disease has led many schools to offer classes online only in an effort to prevent further spread of the disease.

On Monday, the federal Student and Exchange Visitor Program announced, “The U.S. Department of State will not issue visas to students enrolled in schools and/or programs that are fully online for the fall semester nor will U.S. Customs and Border Protection permit these students to enter the United States."

“Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status,” the announcement said. “If not, they may face immigration consequences including, but not limited to, the initiation of removal proceedings.”

University leaders have many questions, including what this might mean for graduate students, several people said.

“If their labs close and they’re not able to work full time on dissertation research … do they have to leave the country?” Boroughs asked. “We know there are many PhD candidates who are involved in critical research to respond to this covid pandemic.”

spiffy

That makes sense to me. If the classes are online you don't need to be here. If that bothers them it's probably because school isn't the reason for coming.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,215
36,534
Los Angeles Area
✟828,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
If that bothers them

Don't you think it's a bit of an imposition, financial and otherwise, to force people to relocate to another country due to something beyond their control? Wouldn't it bother you to suddenly have to uproot yourself at the cost of thousands of dollars?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

Arc F1

Let the righteous man arise from slumber
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
3,735
2,156
Kentucky
✟146,863.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Don't you think it's a bit of an imposition, financial and otherwise, to force people to relocate to another country due to something beyond their control? Wouldn't it bother you to suddenly have to uproot yourself at the cost of thousands of dollars?

We are in the middle of a pandemic. Everyone is inconvenienced at the moment. Why should they be any different?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: LostMarbels
Upvote 0

PloverWing

Episcopalian
May 5, 2012
4,395
5,089
New Jersey
✟335,665.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It makes a kind of coldly logical sense, if the goal is to minimize the number of foreign nationals in the US. If the course is online, then you could connect to the course from your parents' home in India. Assuming your Internet service at home is good. And assuming you don't mind that the course is meeting at midnight local time, because it's a midday class US time.

In terms of the spread of the disease, well. Wikipedia tells me that there are about a million international students in the US. (I didn't realize it was so many.) So we'll be sending a million people out from the US -- where our infection rate is high -- to other countries around the world, potentially carrying the virus. They'll stay there a few months, maybe till January, then return to the US, possibly bringing the virus back with them. Really the opposite of our stay-at-home restrictions.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
It makes a kind of coldly logical sense, if the goal is to minimize the number of foreign nationals in the US. If the course is online, then you could connect to the course from your parents' home in India. Assuming your Internet service at home is good. And assuming you don't mind that the course is meeting at midnight local time, because it's a midday class US time.

In terms of the spread of the disease, well. Wikipedia tells me that there are about a million international students in the US. (I didn't realize it was so many.) So we'll be sending a million people out from the US -- where our infection rate is high -- to other countries around the world, potentially carrying the virus. They'll stay there a few months, maybe till January, then return to the US, possibly bringing the virus back with them. Really the opposite of our stay-at-home restrictions.
It's possible that some of them may not be allowed to return to their home countries. What would ICE do then?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,215
36,534
Los Angeles Area
✟828,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
We are in the middle of a pandemic. Everyone is inconvenienced at the moment. Why should they be any different?

Yes, everyone (including these students) is inconvenienced by the disease and the response to it. Why should the government add an additional burden?
 
Upvote 0

trunks2k

Contributor
Jan 26, 2004
11,369
3,520
41
✟270,241.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We are in the middle of a pandemic. Everyone is inconvenienced at the moment. Why should they be any different?
There's a difference between an unnecessary inconvenience and a necessary one. There are necessary inconveniences that come about as part of the pandemic. Making student who are already in the country go back to their country of origin because they suddenly have to (or are suddenly opting to for their own safety) seems like an unnecessary one to me.

If you want to argue that INCOMING students should be prevented if their classes are all online, that's a different argument to make.

ETA: I'd argue it's a generally bad idea, especially in the sciences, because it makes it harder for those students to get involved in real research. By preventing them from being physically present in their, say, freshman year, you are making it less likely that they get involved in research that requires a physical presence later on. You can be missing out on some real talent.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Arc F1

Let the righteous man arise from slumber
Site Supporter
Mar 14, 2020
3,735
2,156
Kentucky
✟146,863.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, everyone (including these students) is inconvenienced by the disease and the response to it. Why should the government add an additional burden?
Because now there is absolutely no need for them to be here. It makes sense to me. We have more important things to deal with right now. Stay or not doesn't matter to me. I was just giving my opinion.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: LostMarbels
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Because now there is absolutely no need for them to be here. It makes sense to me. We have more important things to deal with right now. Stay or not doesn't matter to me. I was just giving my opinion.
There is no need for them to be elsewhere, either. Your position seems to be based on the assumption that reducing the number of foreign nationals in the country would be a good thing in itself.
 
Upvote 0

mala

fluffy lion
Dec 5, 2002
3,379
2,520
✟261,324.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
I suspect two things are behind this.
One that Miller is a bigot and this is further part of his drive to expel all foreigners from the states.
Two this is an attempt to force schools to open up in the fall so that Trump can tout that everything is fine and that the pandemic is over.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

Fantine

Dona Quixote
Site Supporter
Jun 11, 2005
37,125
13,188
✟1,089,385.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Most students would have to quarantine 14 days before being permitted to interact with others in their home countries.

And I agree, even if classes are online they might need access to labs and other facilities in order to complete their research.

In addition, if they choose to leave their school the school's income will suffer.
 
Upvote 0

Nithavela

our world is happy and mundane
Apr 14, 2007
28,133
19,575
Comb. Pizza Hut and Taco Bell/Jamaica Avenue.
✟493,304.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Another good reason not to study in the USA, you might get kicked out for no good reason because you become a pawn in high-level political games.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

istodolez

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2020
1,065
1,036
60
Washington
✟24,021.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
That makes sense to me. If the classes are online you don't need to be here. If that bothers them it's probably because school isn't the reason for coming.

MAYBE for undergrads...but if grad school existence were as simple as you imagine it your point might make sense. But that isn't how life really is for grad students. And a lot of foreigns students come here for grad school.

What was your experience as a grad student?

But more to the point: this does seem simply cruel. There's no real overt REASON to put this rule out there except to hit foreign students.

And remember, when COVID is over (and it will be over some day) these people will then need to try to GET BACK HERE in order to get into classes and quickly.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,215
36,534
Los Angeles Area
✟828,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Harvard and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology on Wednesday sued the Trump administration over its guidance not allowing foreign students to take online-only courses in the US this fall semester.

Harvard announced earlier this week that all course instruction will be delivered online, including for students living on campus. In a statement provided to CNN, the university said the guidance stands to affect approximately 5,000 international students.

"The order came down without notice—its cruelty surpassed only by its recklessness. It appears that it was designed purposefully to place pressure on colleges and universities to open their on-campus classrooms for in-person instruction this fall, without regard to concerns for the health and safety of students, instructors, and others," Harvard University President Larry Bacow said.
 
Upvote 0

Caliban

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2018
2,575
1,142
California
✟46,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Married
We are in the middle of a pandemic. Everyone is inconvenienced at the moment. Why should they be any different?
Because there is no good reason to do it. Why should they kick students out of the country and risk exposing them to financial difficulty and their host country to infection? Remember the EU imposed travel restriction on U.S. flights.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

keith99

sola dosis facit venenum
Jan 16, 2008
22,889
6,561
71
✟321,245.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I learned of this action before this thread got started from a Stanford student. That same student told me about a fellow Stanford student, A girl from Israel. She is in Stanford, her sister is at NYU. Their parents sold their home to raise the tuition costs and now live in a one bedroom apartment.

So I ask the question, just where are those 2 girls supposed to go? Home is gone. And even if it was still there are they supposed to go to class online in the middle of the night?
 
Upvote 0