Ran77
Senior Contributor
Previously, Phoebe Ann spoke out against cherry-picking. That's when a person quotes a single verse and bases their argument on an interpretation of that verse without regard to what the surrounding text has to say. My challenge is to move away from that practice and discuss the topic in context.
I'm going to start by pointing out the obvious. This is cherry-picking. Three verses. Quoted out of context. Having more verses doesn't make it any less cherry-picking. It just means we have more cherries.
I'm going to address the first cherry-picked verse because that eliminates any selection bias on my part. Here are the surrounding verses from Romans 4.
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
This is a great source to explain the whole grace vs. works doctrine. It also does a great job of explaining what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe on the matter. Let's get started.
Verse 2, IF Abraham was justified by works, he would have nothing to glory before God.
This verse is clearly speaking out against our being justified by works. Which is what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Our belief on this matter is: 2 Nephi 25:23, "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
The verse is very clear that we believe that it is grace that saves us - not works. And Romans 4 explains why. Does works have an impact on what happens to us? Absolutely, but it isn't what saves us. Anyone that tells you we belive differently than that is just inserting their own words and ajenda into the discussion.
Verse 3, points out that Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness.
Verse 4, points out that those who work for the reward, the reward is reckoned of debt.
These two verses, I believe, are key to understanding this chapter. They set the groundwork for grace vs. works. Abraham acted because he believed God. He did what he did because God told him to and Abraham wanted please God. Because of Abraham's belief, he was counted as righteous. Then the following verse talks about works. People who work for their reward. In that situation, their reward is reckoned of debt. The focus here is on our motivation. Do we love God? Or are we just afraid of being thrown into the fiery pit?
Faith is the keystone of our journey with God. And that is why we are saved by grace.
Verse 5, points out that those who have faith but do not work, have that faith counted as righteousness. What does that mean? What does having your faith counted as righteousness look like in non-abstract terms? The members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has an answer to that. Our view of heaven has those in have no faith in God living out eternity in Telestial kingdom. And those who have faith in God are rewarded with life in the Terrestrial Kingdom. This second kingdom requires only faith in God. Their faith is counted as righteousness. But without works, it isn't enough to enjoy the full reward that Heavenly Father offers. (There are plenty of verses in the Bible that clearly point out that works are necessary for reward. Not to be saved, but further rewards.)
Verses 6-8, point out that faith is enough to have our sins forgiven. I agree. It is enough to separate us from the sinners, those who reject God.
Verses 9-10, point out that Abraham received the reckoning of his righteousness in his uncircumcised state. That fits with the verses that precede.
Verses 11, is where I see support for how members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints understand this doctrine. It points out that indeed the belief he had in his uncircumcised state led to him receiving the "seal of circumcision", which is a seal of righteousness. And this seal was necessary for him to be the father of all that believe. Faith imputes righteousness. Then circumcision was necessary to move forward. Abraham received a seal of righteousness before those additional benefits/rewards were granted to him.
Verses 12-13, point out that the promises listed are made to the uncircumcised. We are right back to faith being the essential component for righteousness. The uncircumcised have faith and are counted as righteousness.
Verse 14, points out why this chapter keeps pounding away on the topic of faith and righteousness. Those of the law make faith void. The promise of righteousness is made through faith and not the law.
And why is that the case?
Verse 15, points out that where there is no law, there is no transgression. How can people who have never had the opportunity to hear the doctrines of the Bible be reasonably expected to be judged by them? They can't. That would be an unfair system and Heavenly Father is a just and loving God.
Verse 16, just clarifies the point made in verse 15. We are saved by grace so that all of mankind might have access to God's promises. It is faith that it might be by grace and it is of grace so that all of mankind has access to it.
That's what this chapter is all about. It isn't telling us that works are unimportant. See verse 11 for support of that idea. It is giving us a beautiful insight into God's motive. It is a testimony of His love for us. And it settles the argument of whether we are saved by grace or works. It's grace.
I'm going to start by pointing out the obvious. This is cherry-picking. Three verses. Quoted out of context. Having more verses doesn't make it any less cherry-picking. It just means we have more cherries.
I'm going to address the first cherry-picked verse because that eliminates any selection bias on my part. Here are the surrounding verses from Romans 4.
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
This is a great source to explain the whole grace vs. works doctrine. It also does a great job of explaining what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe on the matter. Let's get started.
Verse 2, IF Abraham was justified by works, he would have nothing to glory before God.
This verse is clearly speaking out against our being justified by works. Which is what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Our belief on this matter is: 2 Nephi 25:23, "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."
The verse is very clear that we believe that it is grace that saves us - not works. And Romans 4 explains why. Does works have an impact on what happens to us? Absolutely, but it isn't what saves us. Anyone that tells you we belive differently than that is just inserting their own words and ajenda into the discussion.
Verse 3, points out that Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness.
Verse 4, points out that those who work for the reward, the reward is reckoned of debt.
These two verses, I believe, are key to understanding this chapter. They set the groundwork for grace vs. works. Abraham acted because he believed God. He did what he did because God told him to and Abraham wanted please God. Because of Abraham's belief, he was counted as righteous. Then the following verse talks about works. People who work for their reward. In that situation, their reward is reckoned of debt. The focus here is on our motivation. Do we love God? Or are we just afraid of being thrown into the fiery pit?
Faith is the keystone of our journey with God. And that is why we are saved by grace.
Verse 5, points out that those who have faith but do not work, have that faith counted as righteousness. What does that mean? What does having your faith counted as righteousness look like in non-abstract terms? The members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has an answer to that. Our view of heaven has those in have no faith in God living out eternity in Telestial kingdom. And those who have faith in God are rewarded with life in the Terrestrial Kingdom. This second kingdom requires only faith in God. Their faith is counted as righteousness. But without works, it isn't enough to enjoy the full reward that Heavenly Father offers. (There are plenty of verses in the Bible that clearly point out that works are necessary for reward. Not to be saved, but further rewards.)
Verses 6-8, point out that faith is enough to have our sins forgiven. I agree. It is enough to separate us from the sinners, those who reject God.
Verses 9-10, point out that Abraham received the reckoning of his righteousness in his uncircumcised state. That fits with the verses that precede.
Verses 11, is where I see support for how members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints understand this doctrine. It points out that indeed the belief he had in his uncircumcised state led to him receiving the "seal of circumcision", which is a seal of righteousness. And this seal was necessary for him to be the father of all that believe. Faith imputes righteousness. Then circumcision was necessary to move forward. Abraham received a seal of righteousness before those additional benefits/rewards were granted to him.
Verses 12-13, point out that the promises listed are made to the uncircumcised. We are right back to faith being the essential component for righteousness. The uncircumcised have faith and are counted as righteousness.
Verse 14, points out why this chapter keeps pounding away on the topic of faith and righteousness. Those of the law make faith void. The promise of righteousness is made through faith and not the law.
And why is that the case?
Verse 15, points out that where there is no law, there is no transgression. How can people who have never had the opportunity to hear the doctrines of the Bible be reasonably expected to be judged by them? They can't. That would be an unfair system and Heavenly Father is a just and loving God.
Verse 16, just clarifies the point made in verse 15. We are saved by grace so that all of mankind might have access to God's promises. It is faith that it might be by grace and it is of grace so that all of mankind has access to it.
That's what this chapter is all about. It isn't telling us that works are unimportant. See verse 11 for support of that idea. It is giving us a beautiful insight into God's motive. It is a testimony of His love for us. And it settles the argument of whether we are saved by grace or works. It's grace.
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