Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Prophecy, it’s not what most think.

People assume prophecy is to foretell the future. A means to present history in advance. But this is not what Jesus says. Prophecy is so we can look back in history and see God’s hand in bringing the-once obscure event to pass.

Jesus said; “I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe” (John 14:29). And again, “From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he” (John 13:19)

Most of the prophecies about the coming of Christ were so vague, we could never base a detailed forecast on them until after fulfilment. John the Baptist stands out having said to be Elijah. Jesus stands out having when said to be the Temple. Indeed, most even today missed the Kingdom of God in the times of the Roman Empire thinking it would be physical instead of spiritual.

Robert Whitelaw says: When we analyze all these cases [of fulfilled prophecies], we find that the fulfillments may be classified into five categories as follows:

(a) Natural events, fulfilled as described by the writer; thirteen cases.

(b) Natural events, but not fulfilled exactly as described or foreseen; eleven cases.

(c) Fulfilled by events both natural and spiritual, but never exactly as described or likely foreseen: sixteen cases.

(d) Fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm only, but not as described or likely foreseen: forty-three cases.

(e) Fulfillments cited in the N. T. as the general tenor of ‘, what the prophets have said”, and always fulfilled by events in the spiritual realm: eleven cases.

Robert Whitelaw. THE GOSPEL MILLENNIUM and Obedience to Scripture.

So based on this it is hard to trust what we think a prophetic passage says until after God makes it clear by fulfilling it.

E.J. Young says; Now, it is contrary to the nature and genius of prophecy to reveal the future as detailed history. In all prophecy there is an element of obscurity and perhaps even of ambiguity. The Lord had distinctly said that He would speak to the prophets in a manner less clear and direct than that in which He would speak to Moses His Servant (Num. 12:1–8). With the prophets He would speak in dreams and visions and—so it would seem—in dark and enigmatic sayings. In revelations which were given as visions, therefore, we should expect an abundance of imagery and symbolism. There are many instances of such revelation in the prophetical books (e. g., Isa. 24–27; Joel 3:9–17; Zech. 14; Ps. 2; Amos 7–9).

Young, E. J. (1980). The Prophecy of Daniel: A Commentary (p. 21). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

Irenaeus of Lyons: “It is … more certain, and less hazardous to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for names that may present themselves.”
 

Richard T

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2018
1,461
973
traveling Asia
✟69,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Thanks for the detailed teaching on prophecy. Do any of the books/authors you reference have anything to say about dual prophecies? I would be especially interested in how common they are and how one might determine if they are meant for more than one situation.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for the detailed teaching on prophecy. Do any of the books/authors you reference have anything to say about dual prophecies? I would be especially interested in how common they are and how one might determine if they are meant for more than one situation.
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not aware of any dual fulfillment prophecies so far but have heard mention of them. If you have any examples I'd like to examine them.
 
Upvote 0

Richard T

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2018
1,461
973
traveling Asia
✟69,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not aware of any dual fulfillment prophecies so far but have heard mention of them. If you have any examples I'd like to examine them.
Sorry it took so long. Here is the best website on dual prophecy that I found. Dual Fulfilment of Prophecy
What sparked my interest in this is I Sam 2. (I have mentioned this before in threads, so if you have heard this before you can ignore this)

In I Sam 2, we have immorality, and a judgement in Samuel's time, that included "no old man left among you" and a new priesthood. It as fulfilled but perhaps we are seeing this a second time around? with no man left among you as COVID, and instead of the priesthood, the church changing, whose leaders follow the "heart and mind of God."
I also have thought this I Sam 2 judgment is possible being counterfeiting by Satan in the end times. In this case, you still have "no old man ..., a new priesthood (one from the anti-christ) and the kicker, would be I Sam 3, where instead of Samuel arising, you have the false prophet coming forth, as type of Samuel. In thinking of this, I am figuring the false prophet may embody many of the characteristics of OT prophets, including Elisha and Elijah. Why Samuel too? Because since the real one anointed King David, perhaps the false prophet will anoint the anti-christ?

I know this is a real stretch, but I have to think it is worth watching. I respect your wisdom on this, so let me know if you have any thoughts. God bless!
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0

Jonathan Walkerin

Well-Known Member
Feb 12, 2019
3,720
2,772
44
Stockholm
✟72,396.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Prophecy is so we can look back in history and see God’s hand in bringing the-once obscure event to pass.

So what prevents us from looking at everything and then cherry picking the right events that fit any said prophecy especially when they are vague as mist ?

Like earthquakes, volcanoes, pandemics, whatever. Things that have always happened, but by your definition you can just pick any one of those and it exactly what was prophecies about ?

Also how do you verify prophecies happening in “spiritual realm “ have happened ?
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So what prevents us from looking at everything and then cherry picking the right events that fit any said prophecy especially when they are vague as mist ?

Like earthquakes, volcanoes, pandemics, whatever. Things that have always happened, but by your definition you can just pick any one of those and it exactly what was prophecies about ?

Also how do you verify prophecies happening in “spiritual realm “ have happened ?
The problem is, you cannot foretell the future based on modern technology. You can only look at history to see what was prophecy. God gives us the dots, but we become false prophets when we connect them before he connects the dots in history.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry it took so long. Here is the best website on dual prophecy that I found. Dual Fulfilment of Prophecy
What sparked my interest in this is I Sam 2. (I have mentioned this before in threads, so if you have heard this before you can ignore this)

In I Sam 2, we have immorality, and a judgement in Samuel's time, that included "no old man left among you" and a new priesthood. It as fulfilled but perhaps we are seeing this a second time around? with no man left among you as COVID, and instead of the priesthood, the church changing, whose leaders follow the "heart and mind of God."
I also have thought this I Sam 2 judgment is possible being counterfeiting by Satan in the end times. In this case, you still have "no old man ..., a new priesthood (one from the anti-christ) and the kicker, would be I Sam 3, where instead of Samuel arising, you have the false prophet coming forth, as type of Samuel. In thinking of this, I am figuring the false prophet may embody many of the characteristics of OT prophets, including Elisha and Elijah. Why Samuel too? Because since the real one anointed King David, perhaps the false prophet will anoint the anti-christ?

I know this is a real stretch, but I have to think it is worth watching. I respect your wisdom on this, so let me know if you have any thoughts. God bless!
There is no millennium. It's a false doctrine of the Pharisees. So this "dual fulfillment" linked above is the false prophecy of our day.
 
Upvote 0

Richard T

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2018
1,461
973
traveling Asia
✟69,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
OK, I can see where you are coming from on that. The link has almost all the dual prophecies dependent on the end times, in many cases having to do with the millennium. They do have this one though that seems valid, though admittedly it is a bit general.
Example. Deuteronomy 28:49 prophesies of "a nation . . . from far" which God would send against Israel if they forsook Him. Note how the terms of this verse were fulfilled by Assyria (Isa. 5:26; 33:19; Hos. 8:1) and Babylon (Jer. 4:13; 5:15) as well as Rome (Mt. 24:28).
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
OK, I can see where you are coming from on that. The link has almost all the dual prophecies dependent on the end times, in many cases having to do with the millennium. They do have this one though that seems valid, though admittedly it is a bit general.
Example. Deuteronomy 28:49 prophesies of "a nation . . . from far" which God would send against Israel if they forsook Him. Note how the terms of this verse were fulfilled by Assyria (Isa. 5:26; 33:19; Hos. 8:1) and Babylon (Jer. 4:13; 5:15) as well as Rome (Mt. 24:28).
They were fulfilled. There is no millennium for a double fulfillment.
 
Upvote 0

Jonathan Walkerin

Well-Known Member
Feb 12, 2019
3,720
2,772
44
Stockholm
✟72,396.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
God gives us the dots, but we become false prophets when we connect them before he connects the dots in history.

Well plenty of those around.

However nothing would prevent you from connecting wrong dots from the history and being false prophet again ?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is no millennium.


Would it be more accurate to describe the Millennium as symbolic of the Church Age, which is a period of time between Christ's first coming and His second coming?

Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, the fire comes at the return of Christ.
We find the fire at the end of Revelation 20.

Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
We find the judgment of the dead at the end of Revelation 20.

.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Would it be more accurate to describe the Millennium as symbolic of the Church Age, which is a period of time between Christ's first coming and His second coming?

Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, the fire comes at the return of Christ.
We find the fire at the end of Revelation 20.

Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
We find the judgment of the dead at the end of Revelation 20.

.
Some do, but there is no millennium. The Pharisees created it. The 1000 years are the binding of Satan. When the 1000 years end he attacks the kingdom. Would it make sense to say he attacks the millennium? I'm already doing that.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well plenty of those around.

However nothing would prevent you from connecting wrong dots from the history and being false prophet again ?
True, but if you study those who connected them so far, they have proven reliability. The "shade tree" prophecy mechanics are blowing steam.
 
Upvote 0

Jonathan Walkerin

Well-Known Member
Feb 12, 2019
3,720
2,772
44
Stockholm
✟72,396.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
True, but if you study those who connected them so far, they have proven reliability.

How would you know their interpretation is correct ?

They are “reliable” because they figured out event that happened fits partly on some prophecies ?

Literally anyone could do that. Your logic on this is silly.

People who figure what has happened after the fact are not prophets. Better honorific would be Captain Obvious.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How would you know their interpretation is correct ?

They are “reliable” because they figured out event that happened fits partly on some prophecies ?

Literally anyone could do that. Your logic on this is silly.

People who figure what has happened after the fact are not prophets. Better honorific would be Captain Obvious.
How do you trust today's prophecy buffs? The people I refer to have the fulfilled prophecy to prove their interpretations. You don't even recognize the Antichrist and he's in every church (practically) today and been here since the dark ages. Who says this? All of the Reformers and many before their time.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jonathan Walkerin

Well-Known Member
Feb 12, 2019
3,720
2,772
44
Stockholm
✟72,396.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
How do you trust today's prophecy buffs? The people I refer to have the fulfilled prophecy to prove their interpretations.

I don’t trust prophecy buffs. So who are the people you refer to and are they all backward prophets ?
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Some do, but there is no millennium.

If the millennium is taken symbolically as a long period of time, then the Church Age is the realization of that symbol. This means it does exist.

Otherwise, John would not have recorded the time period several times in Revelation chapter 20.

There is a time period when Satan is not allowed to deceive all the nations. It is a real period of time.

It appears we may now be near the end of that time period.

.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If the millennium is taken symbolically as a long period of time, then the Church Age is the realization of that symbol. This means it does exist.

Otherwise, John would not have recorded the time period several times in Revelation chapter 20.

There is a time period when Satan is not allowed to deceive all the nations. It is a real period of time.

It appears we may now be near the end of that time period.

.
I don't think scripture backs the Pharisees in their millennial deception. But true, Satan is loosed and filling the churches with Antichrist doctrine and driving the world absolutely crazy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums