Aliens of Israel

ralliann · Jul 1, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) Eph 2:12
that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise, and covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.

Alienated from promise, and covenants, with no expectation, without Elohim? This is terrible!

(CLV) Eph 2:13
Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ.

Become near to what?

Gods tabernacle where he dwelt among them.

Nu 1:53 But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.
To receive forgiveness, and blessing by the aaronic blessing of the sons of Aaron, the high priest.

HARK! said:
Yahshua was commissioned only for Israel.

No, he is high priest to both Jew and Gentile.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
YHWH's covenant is with Israel.

No it is not only for the circumcision.

HARK! said:
(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

If not for making a new covenant with Israel and Judah, the first covenant would not have been made old.....
Mt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

HARK! · Jul 1, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
i may have this wrong but if i understand it:

There is Israel meaning all who saved in Yeshua/Jesus. this body (the church/thr bride) comprises of both ethnic jewish believers and ethnic gentile believers (we are ONE in Christ)

AND

There is a nation of Israel, comprised of 12 tribes (the 144 000 of Revelation). I believe this means the Jewsih race which has been scattered all over the earth Ithe Diaspora) and there are many of Jewsih lineage living al over the world. They claim their true homeland as Israel...some of them have left the countries which they reside in to live in the state of Israel. Jews, because Yah/G_d) scattered them (diaspora) are a diverse people coming from many nation sin the world. That is why Jews can have many skin tones, hair textures etc because many of them intermarried with the gentiles in the nations they were living in. But what is interesting is that geneticists have identifed DNA in different Jewish groups from different parts of the world and they all, be they white or black, have fragments of DNA from the middle east. which suggests there is such a thing as a Jewish nation.

This subject has enough facets that it is really deserving of its' own thread.

I'll add this:

(CLV) Ro 9:6
Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;

(CLV) Ro 9:7
neither that Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac shall your seed be called."

(CLV) Ro 9:8
That is, that the children of the flesh, not these are the children of God, but the children of the promise is He reckoning for the seed.

(CLV) Re 3:9
Lo! I have granted to those of the synagogue of Satan, (who are saying that they themselves are Jews, and are not, but are lying)—Lo! I shall be making them that they will be arriving and worshiping, before your feet, and they may know that I love you.

HARK! · Jul 1, 2020

ralliann said:
Gods tabernacle where he dwelt among them.

That's not what this verse says.

Nu 1:53 But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.
To receive forgiveness, and blessing by the aaronic blessing of the sons of Aaron, the high priest.

This passage wasn't addressed to the Ephesians.

ralliann said:
No, he is high priest to both Jew and Gentile.

Nope. Only to Israel, as it is written

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jews follow Judaism not Yahshua. Gentiles, are of the nations. They are not Israel.

ralliann said:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Should be is future tense. Believers aren't gentiles anymore.

Are we going in circles?

Ephesians 2

11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Not anymore!

12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

Not anymore! Hmmm...covenants, plural.

13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ."

Citizens of Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier"

No difference between those who were born into the false dogma of Judaism, and those who were born into the false teaching of Paganism. All of those in Yahshua are in the truth of YHWH's perfect Torah.

15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, (dogma, Talmud) that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;"

Israel!

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it."

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (FOREVER) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

17 And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near, 18 for through Him we both have had access, in one spirit, to the Father." 19 Consequently, then, no longer are you guests and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family,

(CLV) Num 15:16
One law and one custom, it shall come to be for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you.

(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

(CLV) Lv 24:22
The same judgment shall you come to have; for the sojourner as well as the native shall it be: for I, Yahweh, am your Elohim.

(CLV) Num 15:29
For the native among the sons of Israel and for the sojourner sojourning in their midst, one law shall apply for you, to anyone doing it through inadvertence.

ralliann said:
No it is not only for the circumcision.

Here is what YHWH says:

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law i within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

I'll take his word for it.

ralliann said:
If not for making a new covenant with Israel and Judah, the first covenant would not have been made old.....
Mt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Originally, Israel was one. They split, when Israel broke covenant. Then Judah followed. YHWH will make covenant with both, in one covenant, with Israel. That is the context of the passage. It mentions both; then it mentions Israel alone. In the end we will all be one with YHWH. YHWH reunites his people in the renewed covenant.

Junia · Jul 6, 2020

HARK! said:
This subject has enough facets that it is really deserving of its' own thread.

I'll add this:

(CLV) Ro 9:6
Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;

(CLV) Ro 9:7
neither that Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac shall your seed be called."

(CLV) Ro 9:8
That is, that the children of the flesh, not these are the children of God, but the children of the promise is He reckoning for the seed.

(CLV) Re 3:9
Lo! I have granted to those of the synagogue of Satan, (who are saying that they themselves are Jews, and are not, but are lying)—Lo! I shall be making them that they will be arriving and worshiping, before your feet, and they may know that I love you.

Rev 3: 9

who are the synagogue of satan? I would hae thought it meand false believers. nothing to do with race or nation.

Love of the Truth · Jul 6, 2020

Genesis 17:7-14 " 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.4 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.5 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

HARK! said:
Can you support the assertion, that Abraham became a Jew, with scripture?

By the way, it seems that you neglected to define the word "Jew."

I would reject the assertion that Abraham became a Jew on the prima facie evidence alone; that the word "Jew" didn't exist until a few hundred years ago.

Love of the Truth · Jul 6, 2020

Messianic Jews follow Adonai Yehoshua HaMashiach (The Lord Jesus The Messiah) and they are still Jews and there is still Jews and Gentiles in the body of Messiah, just like there is still men and women in the body of Messiah.

Don't tell anyone that you are a Bible teacher because you do not know what you are talking about and you are an anti-Semite.

HARK! said:
This passage wasn't addressed to the Ephesians.

Nope. Only to Israel, as it is written

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jews follow Judaism not Yahshua. Gentiles, are of the nations. They are not Israel.

Should be is future tense. Believers aren't gentiles anymore.

Are we going in circles?

Ephesians 2

11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations (Gentiles) in flesh - who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands -"

Not anymore!

12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world."

Not anymore! Hmmm...covenants, plural.

13 Yet now, in Christ Jesus, you, who once are far off, are become near by the blood of Christ."

Citizens of Israel.

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

14 For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier"

No difference between those who were born into the false dogma of Judaism, and those who were born into the false teaching of Paganism. All of those in Yahshua are in the truth of YHWH's perfect Torah.

15 (the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees, (dogma, Talmud) that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;"

Israel!

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

16 and should be reconciling both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in it."

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (FOREVER) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

17 And, coming, He brings the evangel of peace to you, those afar, and peace to those near, 18 for through Him we both have had access, in one spirit, to the Father." 19 Consequently, then, no longer are you guests and sojourners, but are fellow-citizens of the saints and belong to God's family,

(CLV) Num 15:16
One law and one custom, it shall come to be for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you.

(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

(CLV) Lv 24:22
The same judgment shall you come to have; for the sojourner as well as the native shall it be: for I, Yahweh, am your Elohim.

(CLV) Num 15:29
For the native among the sons of Israel and for the sojourner sojourning in their midst, one law shall apply for you, to anyone doing it through inadvertence.

Here is what YHWH says:

(CLV) Jer 31:33
For this is the covenant which I shall contract with the house of Israel after those days, averring is Yahweh: I will put My law i within them, And I shall write it on their heart; I will become their Elohim, And they shall become My people.

I'll take his word for it.

Originally, Israel was one. They split, when Israel broke covenant. Then Judah followed. YHWH will make covenant with both, in one covenant, with Israel. That is the context of the passage. It mentions both; then it mentions Israel alone. In the end we will all be one with YHWH. YHWH reunites his people in the renewed covenant.

Love of the Truth · Jul 6, 2020

Revelation 2:8-9 " 8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." [KJV]

The synagogue of satan are those who say they are Jews but are not.

Saying you are Israel when you are not is the same thing. It is also very offensive to Jewish people and to Jewish believers in Messiah Yehoshua when Gentile believers call themselves Israel, because Gentile believers in Messiah Yehoshua have not replaced the Jewish people (Israel).

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
Rev 3: 9

who are the synagogue of satan? I would hae thought it meand false believers. nothing to do with race or nation.

HARK! · Jul 6, 2020

Love of the Truth said:
Genesis 17:7-14 " 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.4 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.5 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."

This passage is devoid of the word Jew.

Love of the Truth · Jul 6, 2020

HARK! said:
This passage is devoid of the word Jew.

Are you devoid of logic and the ability to reason logically? Or are you deceived and blinded?

Junia · Jul 6, 2020

Love of the Truth said:
Messianic Jews follow Adonai Yehoshua HaMashiach (The Lord Jesus The Messiah) and they are still Jews and there is still Jews and Gentiles in the body of Messiah, just like there is still men and women in the body of Messiah.

Don't tell anyone that you are a Bible teacher because you do not know what you are talking about and you are an anti-Semite.

Sadly, I have seen a lot of Gentile Hebrew Roots people claim conspiracy theories claiming that the Jews whoa re comign back to Israel from Russia, Ukraine, Ethiopia etc are not true Israel. It makes me so angry... I am a gentile who has Jewsih ancestry (father's mother) and when I hear these Christians spout off about how Ashkenazi Jews are false Jews and tryign to run the world, are part of the ILLuminati etc i feel so angry.....My ancestors suffered pogroms in Russia... we never had that kind of power to run the world!

My anger is more than personal though....my biggest anger is that these anti-semite people invading the Hebrew Roots movement are ignoring the Bible prophecies which clearly state that in the end times, the peoples of Israel will come from all nations, all corners of the earth...this is what is happening already...it is end times beign fulfilled and these people don't even see it....."I will bring my people from the land of the North...." Where else does that refer to but the far northern hemisphere- Russia, Ukraine etc? of course the Ashkenazi Jews are part of Biblical Israel!!! even their DNA tests prove they have middle eastern blood in their veins---- so their ancestors were Israelites who were scattered...now thye are coming home....and am so glad...and the Jews in Ethiopia are also comign back to Israel.....soon we shall see Jews from all over, actually there are already American, British, Australian, Canadian Jews in Jerusalem. Israel is comign back to her rightful heritage, her rightful land! These people who deny this are basically a stumbling block to the Jewsih people..... Also the modern day HR has been corrupted by those who put burdens on gentile believers sayign we have to be under Torah to be saved... This contradicts Paul, Peter and much of the rest of the NT.... people ar ebound up in legalism- feeling they will never make heaven because their clothes are mixed fabric or they ate a bacon sandwich.....! it is crazy and causes much fear....i fell into deception myself with this movement= i live alone and am disabled and i began to think i was goign to Hell because i was unable to celebrate Passover and my low income means my clothes are from thrift sstores- I cannot afford pure linen!

Love of the Truth · Jul 6, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
Sadly, I have seen a lot of Gentile Hebrew Roots people claim conspiracy theories claiming that the Jews whoa re comign back to Israel from Russia, Ukraine, Ethiopia etc are not true Israel. It makes me so angry... I am a gentile who has Jewsih ancestry (father's mother) and when I hear these Christians spout off about how Ashkenazi Jews are false Jews and tryign to run the world, are part of the ILLuminati etc i feel so angry.....My ancestors suffered pogroms in Russia... we never had that kind of power to run the world!

My anger is more than personal though....my biggest anger is that these anti-semite people invading the Hebrew Roots movement are ignoring the Bible prophecies which clearly state that in the end times, the peoples of Israel will come from all nations, all corners of the earth...this is what is happening already...it is end times beign fulfilled and these people don't even see it....."I will bring my people from the land of the North...." Where else does that refer to but the far northern hemisphere- Russia, Ukraine etc? of course the Ashkenazi Jews are part of Biblical Israel!!! even their DNA tests prove they have middle eastern blood in their veins---- so their ancestors were Israelites who were scattered...now thye are coming home....and am so glad...and the Jews in Ethiopia are also comign back to Israel.....soon we shall see Jews from all over, actually there are already American, British, Australian, Canadian Jews in Jerusalem. Israel is comign back to her rightful heritage, her rightful land! These people who deny this are basically a stumbling block to the Jewsih people..... Also the modern day HR has been corrupted by those who put burdens on gentile believers sayign we have to be under Torah to be saved... This contradicts Paul, Peter and much of the rest of the NT.... people ar ebound up in legalism- feeling they will never make heaven because their clothes are mixed fabric or they ate a bacon sandwich.....! it is crazy and causes much fear....i fell into deception myself with this movement= i live alone and am disabled and i began to think i was goign to Hell because i was unable to celebrate Passover and my low income means my clothes are from thrift sstores- I cannot afford pure linen!

If your fathers mother is a Jew that makes you a Jew, because according to the Holy Scriptures Jewish lineage is passed down on both the fathers side and the mothers side, I realize that rabbinic/talmudic Jews have a tradition that says that Jewish lineage is only passed down on the mothers side, but this tradition is unScriptural and therefore false. Boaz mother was Rahab a Gentile but his father was a Jew and Boaz was considered a Jew in the Bible and Boaz married Ruth and begat Obed, Obeds mother was Ruth a Moabite (Gentile) but his father was Boaz a Jew, and so as you can see Jewish lineage is indeed passed down on the father's side as well. And so for you, your Jewish lineage is passed down to you through your father and your grandmother.

If you have believed that you are a sinner on your way to hell without Jesus and that Jesus the Messiah is YEHOVAH manifested in the flesh who died on the cross for you and your sins and rose again from the dead and you have asked Jesus the Messiah to forgive you of your sins and to live and reign in your heart as your personal Saviour, then you are saved. And I wouldn't listen to "HARK!" he seems to be an anti-Semite and a false teacher. If you are not sure about something ask The Lord Jesus The Messiah to show you in the Holy Bible. If you are looking for a very reliable English translation of the Bible, the most reliable in my opinion is the Authorised Version 1611/1769, this is the translation I stick with and it isn't missing any verses of Scripture and nothing has been changed or manipulated by "scholars". I have many Modern English translations but I do not feel comfortable with any of them.

I also have encountered these so called "Hebrew Roots People (One Law Two Sticks people)" and they stoke fear and confusion and they are anti-Semitic.

HARK! · Jul 6, 2020

Love of the Truth said:
Messianic Jews follow Adonai Yehoshua HaMashiach (The Lord Jesus The Messiah) and they are still Jews and there is still Jews and Gentiles in the body of Messiah, just like there is still men and women in the body of Messiah.

Don't tell anyone that you are a Bible teacher because you do not know what you are talking about and you are an anti-Semite.

(CLV) Ga 3:27
For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ,

(CLV) Ga 3:28
in Whom there is not Jew nor yet Greek, there is not slave nor yet free, there is not male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus.

Perhaps yo0u can then teach us what Paul was really teaching.

Yahshua rebuked placing the false doctrine of Judaism, over Torah.

You have still neglected to define the word Jew. I would pray the at you are not building an argument founded in racism.

HARK! · Jul 6, 2020

Love of the Truth said:
Don't tell anyone that you are a Bible teacher

Wouldn't think of it.

(CLV) Mt 23:8
"Now you may not be called `Rabbi,' for One is your Teacher, yet you all are brethren.

HARK! · Jul 6, 2020

Love of the Truth said:
If your fathers mother is a Jew that makes you a Jew,

Can you show me that in scripture; or is that of the traditions of men?

HARK! · Jul 6, 2020

Love of the Truth said:
Revelation 2:8-9 " 8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." [KJV]

The synagogue of satan are those who say they are Jews but are not.

Saying you are Israel when you are not is the same thing.

It's not the same thing. That's why there are two different words. Words have meaning. The word Jew didn't even exist until a few hundred years ago; and you have yet to define this word.

I suppose this verse, is either speaking of Yahudim (Yah's people and just because one is a descendant of Abraham does not mean he is Yahudi.), or those who's heritage is of the Russian Steppes, who falsely claim to be blood descendants of Abraham.

Even so:

Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;

HARK! · Jul 6, 2020

Love of the Truth said:
Are you devoid of logic and the ability to reason logically? Or are you deceived and blinded?

Are you familiar with the flawed logic of the false dichotomy?

Are you familiar with logical proof?

I look forward to a logical argument to back your assertion.

HARK! · Jul 6, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
Rev 3: 9

who are the synagogue of satan? I would hae thought it meand false believers. nothing to do with race or nation.

They are defined, even within the same verse.

(CLV) Re 3:9
|Lo~! I have granted to those o of the synagogue of Satan, (who are saying that they themselves are Jews, and are not, but are lying)—Lo! I shall be making them that they will be arriving and worshiping, before your feet, and they may know that I love you.

Aliens of Israel

Are you of Israel in Yahshua?

Yes

No

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