clouds and the air - the rapture

Douggg

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1Thessalonians4:13-18

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

A poster wrote.... "If he is saying that their is a rapture in which we are caught up to the clouds, then I have heard that as well and agree that this is what Paul says."


My comment is there is question about what is meant by the air. Is it inside of our atmosphere, or just outside of our atmosphere, or somewhere further out into the cosmos, maybe way out into the cosmos?

The clouds themselves seems to indicate those are in our atmosphere. But in the air - that's where the question is.

Some say there is no rapture to heaven (where God's Throne is). Traditionally, the Post-trib view is that at the end of the 7 years at Jesus's return as He is descending to earth Christians are raptured - ascend up to meet Jesus and then be a part of Jesus's triumphant Second Coming in great power and glory - never going to heaven themselves.

There is another factor/take of the Post-trib view that in Matthew 24:31, is the gathering of the elect by the angels is the rapture.

Additionally, there are some who say no human ever goes to the heaven where God's throne is.

(personally, I am not Post-trib view).
 
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mlepfitjw

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From my standpoint there is no group rapture anymore that was spoken about in that day that was always telling the people to be ready for the coming of the Lord, but individual rapture that comes up us at our death.

Of course this comes from my view that the Lord Jesus Christ has come back and done what He said he would do, and as the apostles had spoken and talked about that would happen to the believers of the first fruit of the spirit which was the bride which was a long time ago.

When you think of cloud you can see it, but when you think of air, you can not see it for it is unseen.

Could it mean the cloud of witnesses (Hebrews 12:1-2) where taken and met the Lord in the air as it says and where with the Lord just that they could not be seen? Like you mention?

And as I mentioned I believe that at our death we are going to go be with the Lord if we are believers and it only happens when we give up our last breathe.
 
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eleos1954

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The symbolism is missed by some ... caught up in the clouds .... clouds are sometimes symbolically used referring to angels.

Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:17)

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27)

Clouds of angels that are spoken of. It also appears that the angels escort Jesus from place to place:

"The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place." (Psa 68:17)

"Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:" (Psa 104:3)

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." (Dan 7:13)

The word "they" is referring to the angels ("came with the clouds" earlier in the verse).
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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From my standpoint there is no group rapture anymore that was spoken about in that day that was always telling the people to be ready for the coming of the Lord, but individual rapture that comes up us at our death.

Of course this comes from my view that the Lord Jesus Christ has come back and done what He said he would do, and as the apostles had spoken and talked about that would happen to the believers of the first fruit of the spirit which was the bride which was a long time ago.

When you think of cloud you can see it, but when you think of air, you can not see it for it is unseen.

Could it mean the cloud of witnesses (Hebrews 12:1-2) where taken and met the Lord in the air as it says and where with the Lord just that they could not be seen? Like you mention?

And as I mentioned I believe that at our death we are going to go be with the Lord if we are believers and it only happens when we give up our last breathe.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[fn]
55 “O Death, where is your sting?[fn]
O Hades, where
is your victory?”[fn]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
 
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DebbieJ

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"There is question about what is meant by the air. Is it outside of our atmosphere, or it is somewhere further out into the cosmos?"
----

The resurrected ones who will be the first ones to be caught up, will be in the clouds with the Lord waiting for those who are still on Earth. Those on Earth (Christians) who remained alive will be caught up together with them in the air. Then, they will all disappear together towards heaven perhaps in a portal. This will be instantaneous.

Imagine Superman waiting for you in the clouds, levitating in the air. If you can levitate in the air, you don't say "in the atmosphere".

Look! He is levitating in the atmosphere. It's just wrong usage of words. lol

And lastly, it's literal clouds, as in cumulus clouds.
 
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eleos1954

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1Thessalonians4:13-18

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

A poster wrote.... "If he is saying that their is a rapture in which we are caught up to the clouds, then I have heard that as well and agree that this is what Paul says."


My comment is there is question about what is meant by the air. Is it inside of our atmosphere, or just outside of our atmosphere, or somewhere further out into the cosmos, maybe way out into the cosmos?

The clouds themselves seems to indicate those are in our atmosphere. But in the air - that's where the question is.

Some say there is no rapture to heaven (where God's Throne is). Traditionally, the Post-trib view is that at the end of the 7 years at Jesus's return as He is descending to earth Christians are raptured - ascend up to meet Jesus and then be a part of Jesus's triumphant Second Coming in great power and glory - never going to heaven themselves.

There is another factor/take of the Post-trib view that in Matthew 24:31, is the gathering of the elect by the angels is the rapture.

Additionally, there are some who say no human ever goes to the heaven where God's throne is.

(personally, I am not Post-trib view).

in the Greek - strongs in that verse says this ...

Strong's Concordance
aér: air
Original Word: ἀήρ, ἀέρος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aér
Phonetic Spelling: (ah-ayr')
Definition: air
Usage: air, the lower air we breathe.
 
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Douggg

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in the Greek - strongs in that verse says this ...

Strong's Concordance
aér: air
Original Word: ἀήρ, ἀέρος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aér
Phonetic Spelling: (ah-ayr')
Definition: air
Usage: air, the lower air we breathe.
eleos1954, what do you think about the possibility of the gap between the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7:13....
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

...and the clouds here on earth, as being "the air" in 1Thessalonians4:17 ? As a general way of describing that gap.

____________________________________________________

Would you like to take part in my thread, in the opening post of it, so others could know your rapture position?

Where do you fit ?
 
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eleos1954

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eleos1954, what do you think about the possibility of the gap between the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7:13....
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

...and the clouds here on earth, as being "the air" in 1Thessalonians4:17 ?

clouds are not just air according to science -- A cloud is made of water drops or ice crystals floating in the sky.

in the greek ... defines it as breathable air ... not too far out into our atmosphere and the air is not "breathable"

I think in Daniel 7:13 clouds are referring to the angels metaphorically/symbolically
and they brought him near before him.

We do know He returns with His angels.
 
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Douggg

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By the same literal token, it doesn't say 'heaven', now does it? Are people magically whisked into the atmosphere? Wheee!
Hi tranquil, I don't think any of the rapture views are built on 1Thessalonians4:13-18, alone. Would you agree with me on that?
 
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-57

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My comment is there is question about what is meant by the air. Is it inside of our atmosphere, or just outside of our atmosphere, or somewhere further out into the cosmos, maybe way out into the cosmos?

I'm going with the sky just above our heads.

I think a key to the question and answer may be found here..

Acts 1:11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
 
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Paul4JC

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or somewhere further out into the cosmos, maybe way out into the cosmos?
There is no "cosmos" in the Bible. There are heavenly realms.

[Eph 1:3, 20 NIV] 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. ... 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
[Eph 2:6 NIV] 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
[Eph 3:10 NIV] 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,
[Eph 6:12 NIV] 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
 
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DavidPT

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And as I mentioned I believe that at our death we are going to go be with the Lord if we are believers and it only happens when we give up our last breathe.

Every time someone dies the following things happen each time, thus billions of times? God brings with Him those that sleep in Jesus, and that the dead in Christ rise first?
 
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DavidPT

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I'm going with the sky just above our heads.

I think a key to the question and answer may be found here..

Acts 1:11and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”


And we have to keep in mind that the perspective is from the earth and that the following has to apply to this coming.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him , and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
 
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