Bible literalism.

BobRyan

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What point? How many stars are there...stars were included in day 4, were they not?

Nope they are noted as ruling the night but we do not find "then God made the stars" on day 4.

I find that "instructive".

Stars were not made on day 4. Only "two lights" on day four and they are the sun and moon.

Very helpful to get that detail for the number of lights made on day 4.
 
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BobRyan

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Claiming verse 2 begins day 1 does not agree at all with the passage. .

vs 2 gives the context .. the starting conditions within which we understand the action taken on day 2.

"2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

in fact even after creating light - the water still cover the surface of the deep, the Spirit of God still moves over the surface of the waters and the "evening" of the first day most certainly includes that first 12 hours of "darkness".

the point remains.

What point? No where is there a verse that has God commanding the creation of the earth...you even said it was the "starting point"...so when and what timeframe?

asking about events outside the timeframe of the 7 day creation week in Genesis 1-2 gets you no specific time frame as the answer from the text - because the text is not dealing with that subject other than to tell the reader God is the Creator of all the universe..

Not very surprising
 
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Jamsie

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vs 2 gives the context .. the starting conditions within which we understand the action taken on day 2.

"2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

in fact even after creating light - the water still cover the surface of the deep, the Spirit of God still moves over the surface of the waters and the "evening" of the first day most certainly includes that first 12 hours of "darkness".

the point remains.

hint: More than 2.

I suppose your point is still unclear, is it your interpretation that Genesis 1:1-2 is within the context of day 1? If yes then that would include the universe as well as specifically the earth, correct? (Perhaps the confusion arises from when you stated verses 1 & 2 as a starting point though you might have meant a "created" starting point with Genesis 1:1-5 as actually continuous thought) If continuous as noted then not only the earth but the universe was created on day 1 ...and what comprises the universe but stars, planets, galaxies, etc....................
 
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BobRyan

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Claiming verse 2 begins day 1 does not agree at all with the passage. .

vs 2 gives the context .. the starting conditions within which we understand the action taken on day 2.

"2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

in fact even after creating light - the water still cover the surface of the deep, the Spirit of God still moves over the surface of the waters and the "evening" of the first day most certainly includes that first 12 hours of "darkness".

the point remains.

What point? How many stars are there...

hint: More than 2.

I suppose your point is still unclear

I think a lot of readers will be able to distinguish between 2, and a zillion-and-2.

Genesis 1 points out that it is the number '2' that corresponds to the number of lights made on day 4 of creation week.

This is irrefutable

I. is it your interpretation that Genesis 1:1-2 is within the context of day 1?

No. Vs 1 is the "zillion-and-2" of the entire univers.

I keep saying that (as is often the case in scripture) the first statement is a broad summary of the entire creation, creation of the entire universe in vs 1,, and then starting with vs 2 a specific focus on Earth and the 7 day creation week where Earth is formatted for life, and all life is created on it, and our solar system is created having "the sun" for example.

If yes then that would include the universe as well as specifically the earth, correct?

Yes - but vs 1 is the much more general statement about God being the creator of the universe - which includes Earth but is not limited to Earth.

vs 2 begins the detail focus on our solar system (with its sun) and Earth specifically.

(Perhaps the confusion arises from when you stated verses 1 & 2 as a starting point though you might have meant a "created" starting point with Genesis 1:1-5 as actually continuous thought) If continuous as noted then not only the earth but the universe was created on day 1 ...and what comprises the universe but stars, planets, galaxies, etc....................

For clarity - I am not claiming that the universe was made in that 7 day creation week that begins in vs 2.
 
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Jamsie

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For clarity - I am not claiming that the universe was made in that 7 day creation week that begins in vs 2.

OK, this is clearer upon reading a few times for clarity. So Gen.1:1-2 are prior to verse 2 (day 1) which begins the "And God said, ..." focused of our solar system/earth. Correct?
 
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BobRyan

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OK, this is clearer upon reading a few times for clarity. So Gen.1:1-2 are prior to verse 2 (day 1) which begins the "And God said, ..." focused of our solar system/earth. Correct?

Vs 1 covers all of time.
vs 2 covers some unknown time before day 1 and the conditions it identifies persist into at least half of day 1 since "evening and morning" were the first day.
 
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Jamsie

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Vs 1 covers all of time.
vs 2 covers some unknown time before day 1 and the conditions it identifies persist into at least half of day 1 since "evening and morning" were the first day.

My view is quite simple on the details ... any interpretation of the creation account is ultimately opinion. I say this only because OT scholars, theologians, Hebrew professors, etc. disagree on the details with substantive support ... but not on God as creator. There are disagreements on the meaning of "evening" and "morning" - not being a Hebrew/Greek Scholar I simply try and digest to consider. So the consecutive waw indicates that we have - God's command - evening as command conclusion - and the morning starts a new day... again not a Hebrew scholar, but it was written by one.

So one considers Gen. 1:1-2 as part of day 1, while another disagrees and points, for example, to "bara" - which is only used in Gen.1:1. Subsequent to Gen.1:1 other terms are used asaph, yatzar (which is parenthetical), and kun. Further, Gen.1:1-2 is in the perfect tense and from Gen. 1:3 on the imperfect tense is used- thus ongoing action, and perhaps that could be argued. Further still, there are arguments surrounding chronological consequence and logical consequence based on "evening and morning...I will leave that for others to debate.

Then too there exist distinctions as to the nature of Genesis 1 purely historical, allegory, poetry. As an example there are Hebrew scholars that argue Gen.1 is not typical Hebrew poetry but neither is it normal Hebrew prose. Thus to some scholars there are some elements/fragments of poetry though overall it is predominately, but not normal, prose.

As to 6 days - Exodus 20:11, etc. - one can call it a "week" (which nowhere is stated as such in the Bible) or one could easily call it a model for the term "week". Agreeing that the sole operative agency was "And God said,..." so that these commands/fiats required no further action or agency therefore obviously anything that would follow the command must be explanatory. So we see in Genesis that God commands agency to the land/water to produce-bring forth....only in verse 3 is immediacy stated "And God said, let there be light and there was light". Subsequent to that one will note that all commands become mediate... thus for example in verse 24 the fiat is directed to the land. Note that the passage states "And God said, Let the land produce ..." what the passage does not say is "And God said, Let there be living creatures, and there were living creatures". Clearly the command is directed to the land, a mediate agency empowered by God, and so the designated day is reference to the command/fiat. Thus the Genesis account for the most part (sans vs. 3) does not force a time element on the command...because it doesn't. (Of course the creation of fish and birds is also questioned as to Ge. 1:20)

Again, the simple point should be humility and not entrenched dogma because God did not choose to offer us an incontrovertible narrative. I suppose the only reason I approached this thread was because I simply can not believe that people actually believe in the "appearance of age"/Omphalus thing...when it first came out not only was it soundly rejected by scientists but Christians too overwhelmingly dismissed it as nonsense.

We know "In the beginning God created..." and beyond that the specifics are a very murky affair ... fun to discuss, defend one's perspective, and debate but ultimately foolish to be too dogmatic.
 
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Jipsah

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A rock is not a rock without age...
God created rocks in an instant with age.
Just like He made good wine in an instant from water.
This is the "God created the universe last Thursday" position.
 
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Jamsie

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Since when do we turn to science to tell us what He did or didn't do ???

Since the Bible is silent on myriad aspects of the universe/earth/nature. Science reveals God through the "things that he has made"- The heavens declare and "night after night display their knowledge". The true problem arises when Christians are incapable of separating the metaphysical claims of naturalism and therefore denigrate the evidence which questions their dogma. In reality nothing in the scientific arena disposes of the belief in God...
 
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BobRyan

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Since when do we turn to science to tell us what He did or didn't do ???

We don't turn to "science" we turn to "scienTISTS" and whatever goofy idea they may have on the doctrine of "origins" at the time - whatever is popular with them... and of course they reserve the right to toss it all out the window tomorrow if something else gains critical-mass popularity among them by then. After all - it is not like the origins of life or of formatting planet earth for life - is a "reproducible experiment".
 
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BobRyan

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My view is quite simple on the details ... any interpretation of the creation account is ultimately opinion.

One "could" make that claim about all of the Bible including the virgin birth - but usually we don't go down that route for establish Bible fact. (And as noted earlier the 7 day creation week is a Bible fact admitted to by both atheist scholars and Christians). Some Bible facts "don't get any easier than that"

I say this only because OT scholars, theologians, Hebrew professors in all world-class universities appear to agree on the 7 day week as an historic account in Genesis whether they believe the account is correct or not.

So then - that's the easy part.

We know "In the beginning God created..." and beyond that the specifics are a very murky affair ... .

Turns out the text is incredibly easy to read and understand as all OT scholars, theologians, Hebrew professors in all world-class universities appear to agree on the 7 day week as an historic account in Genesis
 
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hedrick

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We don't turn to "science" we turn to "scienTISTS" and whatever goofy idea they may have on the doctrine of "origins" at the time - whatever is popular with them... and of course they reserve the right to toss it all out the window tomorrow if something else gains critical-mass popularity among them by then. After all - it is not like the origins of life or of formatting planet earth for life - is a "reproducible experiment".
As you surely know, this is a misrepresentation. Scientific developments do occur, but they virtually always include previous models. Relativity still has Newtonian physics as a special case for normal speeds. Quantum theory is different at very small sizes. We aren't going to go from the big bang to the earth created 6000 years ago. There's just too much evidence. There are open issues with the big bang, so I'm sure there will be other models, but they'll still have to include the things that led to the big bang. For example, I think there's some uncertainty about inflation, but that's the first small fraction of a second.
 
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Jamsie

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One "could" make that claim about all of the Bible including the virgin birth - but usually we don't go down that route for establish Bible fact. (And as noted earlier the 7 day creation week is a Bible fact admitted to by both atheist scholars and Christians). Some Bible facts "don't get any easier than that"

No one is making any claim about the virgin birth...we are talking about Genesis/Creation. Your belief that if one has a different interpretation regarding Genesis therefore they dismiss the entire Bible...that is so blatantly wrongheaded. (As you well know the arguments and disagreements concerning theology are myriad...just peruse the multitude of threads in General Theology among many others) You further failed to understand what was written...it wasn't a claim against the 6 creative days, it was an assertion regarding the timeframe and disagreements by scholars on interpretation of various aspects/details.

I say this only because OT scholars, theologians, Hebrew professors in all world-class universities appear to agree on the 7 day week as an historic account in Genesis whether they believe the account is correct or not.

So then - that's the easy part.

OK, where exactly was it suggested in any of my posts that the 6 days of activity were false? So, not sure what the point is of this?

Turns out the text is incredibly easy to read and understand as all OT scholars, theologians, Hebrew professors in all world-class universities appear to agree on the 7 day week as an historic account in Genesis

You are harping on something that is not being asserted, so what is the point. It is in the details of those 6 creative activity days that OT scholars, theologians, and Hebrew professors disagree... that is a fact as you were shown.
 
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hedrick

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No one is making any claim about the virgin birth...we are talking about Genesis/Creation. Your belief that if one has a different interpretation regarding Genesis therefore they dismiss the entire Bible...that is so blatantly wrongheaded. (As you well know the arguments and disagreements concerning theology are myriad...just peruse the multitude of threads in General Theology among many others) You further failed to understand what was written...it wasn't a claim against the 6 creative days, it was an assertion regarding the timeframe and disagreements by scholars on interpretation of various aspects/details.
There are, I think three possible approaches to Gen 1
  • The earth was created in 6 24 hour days around 6000 years ago
  • It wasn't created in 6 24 hour days, but the Bible is inerrant. There are lots of approaches to this, from day age theory to long pauses between the days.
  • It wasn't created in 6 24 hour days, and the Bible is simply wrong.
The third approach rejects inerrancy but need not (and usually does not) reject the Bible as a source of historical information. It does, however, involve using it the same way we use other sources of historical information, which is to say carefully, comparing with what else we know of the period, and taking into account the kinds of biases we can see in the work.

I agree with Barr that the second approach is untenable, but to claim that every scholar agrees you have to be selective about who you count. If someone restricts it to scholars at major universities, they may want to think carefully, since those same scholars are going to have views on other areas of the Bible that are they probably won't like.
 
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BobRyan

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No one is making any claim about the virgin birth

actually we make the claim that the Bible gives us the details for it. (See the Gospel accounts - for example)

...we are talking about Genesis/Creation.

And the statement in legal code in Ex 20:11 that confirms what all the scholars in Hebrew and OT studies in all the world-class universities regarding the "kind of literature" that Genesis 1-2 is... a historic account. Regardless if they agree with the accuracy of the account or not - they all agree it is a 7 day week - like our own today. Not a lot of "fancy foot work" going on with Moses as he conveys the very simple and direct account to the newly-freed slaves from Egypt.

People that were not about to "insert darwinism" into everything that Moses wrote - as all scholars agree.

In other words - the easy part.

Your belief that if one has a different interpretation regarding Genesis therefore they dismiss the entire Bible

I don't make that claim - rather I argue that if one says that Bible details no matter how simple and obvious should not be accepted as fact but rather as personal preference - then a lot of Bible details get caught up in that kind of net.
 
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BobRyan

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There are, I think three possible approaches to Gen 1
  • The earth was created in 6 24 hour days around 6000 years ago
  • It wasn't created in 6 24 hour days, but the Bible is inerrant. There are lots of approaches to this, from day age theory to long pauses between the days.
  • It wasn't created in 6 24 hour days, and the Bible is simply wrong.
The third approach rejects inerrancy but need not ....

A simpler model is

1. What does the Bible say.
2. Do you agree with it or not.

Regardless of which of the three options you provide above - it still gets to these two basics.

In the first case

1. The Bible says it all happened in a 7 day week - Ex 20:8-11 the same as our week. Gen 2:1-3
2. So then accept or reject that as the Bible being accurate.

In the second case
1. The Bible says it is merely a poetic idea and gives no actual time frame.
2. So then the bible can be as right as you wish -- and all the Hebrew and OT scholars at all world-class univ.. simply "don't know what the Bible says" - whether they agree with the text or not they simply don't know enough about that literature to know what it is saying... and the same goes for all Bible-believing Christians who think that Genesis-1-2 and Ex 20:11 "legal code" are not figurative/symbolic etc.
 
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Jamsie

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We don't turn to "science" we turn to "scienTISTS" and whatever goofy idea they may have on the doctrine of "origins" at the time - whatever is popular with them... and of course they reserve the right to toss it all out the window tomorrow if something else gains critical-mass popularity among them by then. After all - it is not like the origins of life or of formatting planet earth for life - is a "reproducible experiment".

Again, this was addressed and obviously dismissed. You confuse and misrepresent the science with the "metaphysical claims of naturalism". In fact if anything the discoveries and evidence from science, with an objective view, appears to support God. Here is an excerpt from a piece in Time years ago:

"The scientific atheists have scrambled to explain this troubling mystery by suggesting the existence of a multiverse—an infinite set of universes, each with its own parameters. In some universes, the conditions are wrong for life; however, by the sheer size of this putative multiverse, there must be a universe where everything is right. But if it takes an immense power of nature to create one universe, then how much more powerful would that force have to be in order to create infinitely many universes? So the purely hypothetical multiverse does not solve the problem of God. The incredible fine-tuning of the universe presents the most powerful argument for the existence of an immanent creative entity we may well call God. Lacking convincing scientific evidence to the contrary, such a power may be necessary to force all the parameters we need for our existence—cosmological, physical, chemical, biological and cognitive—to be what they are."


 
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