New PreWrath Chart

shilohsfoal

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The desolation is not placed any where. The desolation of the temple took place in 70 AD as Jesus predicted.

You are misreading the scripture and seeing, 'the desolation' ,as an entity, a thing, a person perhaps. That is not what Jesus was saying. Jesus said to those in Judea to flee to the mountains, don't try a go back into Jerusalem. This is not an instruction to other nations to flee to the mountains.

If it is the end of days and Jesus is saying to pray that it's not winter, when you fleeing. What sense does that make? It is the end of the world so why would anyone flee?

We are in the age of the Gentiles now and the age of the temple is long gone. Try reading Luke 21 and getting on top of that chapter. Matthew and Mark's account compress these two events into one event. No wonder you think the temple will be rebuilt. No wonder you believe that Israel will go back under the law of Moses.

I struggle with the way that people are taught to understand the scripture.

How many times you are wrong, let me count the ways. I don't believe a temple will be rebuilt. I don't believe Israel keeps the laws of Moses.

What I said was, the resurrection takes place when the armed forces set up the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.
You believe the resurrection took place in 70 AD?
 
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klutedavid

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How many times you are wrong, let me count the ways. I don't believe a temple will be rebuilt. I don't believe Israel keeps the laws of Moses.

What I said was, the resurrection takes place when the armed forces set up the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.
You believe the resurrection took place in 70 AD?
What does 'set up the abomination of desolation' mean to you? It sure does not make any sense to me.

How can you, 'set up', a destruction, a desolation?

Where in Jerusalem is this going to happen, the setting up of a desolation?
 
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shilohsfoal

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What does 'set up the abomination of desolation' mean to you? It sure does not make any sense to me.

How can you, 'set up', a destruction, a desolation?

Where in Jerusalem is this going to happen, the setting up of a desolation?

Would it make more sense to you if I said the armed forces shall "place" the abomination that causes desolation?
Daniel 11:31 KJV: And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
You still have not answered my question. Scripture shows that the resurrection takes place when the armed forces place the abomination of desolation. Do you honestly believe the resurrection took place in 70 AD?
 
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klutedavid

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Would it make more sense to you if I said the armed forces shall "place" the abomination that causes desolation?
Daniel 11:31 KJV: And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
You still have not answered my question. Scripture shows that the resurrection takes place when the armed forces place the abomination of desolation. Do you honestly believe the resurrection took place in 70 AD?
Of course I don't believe the resurrection took place in 70 AD.
Scripture shows that the resurrection takes place when the armed forces place the abomination of desolation
Are you sure that is what the scripture states?

If your interpretation is correct, then how do you explain the following verse?

Mark 13:30
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
 
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5thKingdom

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I like it, but it suffers from the same problem that some posters on here suffer from, they reshuffle the order because they don't know how the pieces fit.

The 2 witnesses 1260 days occur after the 6th Trumpet war. The 1260 days occur during the 2nd woe.

I was just going to sit on this chart for a few more weeks, but why wait.

fractal.png

Daniel 9 is a fractal & Revelation is extrapolating all the permutations of meanings from it.

There appears to be 2 different 'tracks', why this is I don't know. But in just a few weeks, we should be seeing the start of the 70 weeks that lead up to the 2 witnesses being anointed. In Daniel 9:24, the 'prophet' is 'sealed', which we know from 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, means the same thing as 'anointed'.

On the one hand, Daniel 9:24 starts off with Daniel apologizing, begging for mercy, saying, the Deuteronomy curses for disobedience have been poured out.

On the other hand, Daniel 9:24 starts off with the 'call to rebuild Jerusalem'. Contextually, this is the upcoming 'Peace to Prosperity' Trump treaty, which concerns itself with 'rebuilding Jerusalem'. Also, the 'Peace to Prosperity' treaty is a reference to 'when they say 'peace & safety' then sudden destruction. The 'sudden destruction' would be construed as the Deuteronomy curses being poured out. What's it mean? We will find out soon enough, since this has to occur sometime around July 18 through dusk July 25, 2020. Dusk July 25, 2020 leading up to 24 Kislev then 1260 days, then 3.5 days to get us to May 14, 2025, the 1st day of Noah (17 Iyyar) and the 77th anniversary of Jerusalem's desolations.

At the end of the 70 weeks, the 'most holy' is anointed & the 'prophet' is 'sealed'. These are the 2 witnesses. The 'most holy place' is the 'temple of God' mentioned in Revelation 11:1. The war that is mentioned in Daniel
26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”​

Immediately segues into the covenant.

The war that ends immediately before the covenant is the 6th Trumpet war. Then the covenant is made, triggering the 2 witnesses.

If we just look at the timeline from the start of Israel, this gives us the end of the 62nd week as dusk Dec. 18, 2020 (for the end of the 6th Seal war).

Subtract 5 months/ 150 days (Genesis 7:24) for the flood leading up to the destruction of the city, that puts us at July 18 (solar calendar) or July 21, 2020 (150 days).

So, the start of the flood triggers the call to repentance of Daniel 9:24 (dusk July 25, 2020).

In Hosea 5 (Ephraim/ Israel is the USA; Judah is nation state Israel/ 'Jews')
5The pride of Israel testifies to his face;a
Israel and Ephraim shall stumble in his guilt;
Judah also shall stumble with them.
6With their flocks and herds they shall go
to seek the Lord,
but they will not find him;
he has withdrawn from them.
7They have dealt faithlessly with the Lord;
for they have borne alien children.
Now the new moon shall devour them with their fields.

8Blow the horn in Gibeah,
the trumpet in Ramah.
Sound the alarm at Beth-aven;
we follow you, O Benjamin!
9Ephraim shall become a desolation
in the day of punishment;

among the tribes of Israel
I make known what is sure.

10 The princes of Judah have become
like those who move the landmark;
upon them I will pour out
my wrath like water.

July 21 is the new moon/ Rosh Chodesh. You can see the Judean annexation in verse 10 and the explicit reference to the 'flood'/ 'wrath like water'. And this connects with Judea in Matthew 24:15-16. It looks tome like the false Christs that could deceive the elect starts this winter.


The 1260 days of the "woman" [church] being protected [Rev 12]
during the Great Commission and the "Two Witnesses [church]
giving "testimony" during the Great Commission [Rev 11] are both
BEFORE the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast.

.
 
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Dave L

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Only unbelievers are under God's wrath.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.’” John 3:36 (NCPB)

The Rapture happens at the end of the world according to Paul.
“Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.” 2 Thessalonians 1:6–10 (KJV 1900)

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV 1900)
 
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shilohsfoal

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Of course I don't believe the resurrection took place in 70 AD.Are you sure that is what the scripture states?

If your interpretation is correct, then how do you explain the following verse?

Mark 13:30
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

The generation Jesus is speaking of will not pass till all these things take place.Obviously all these things have not come to pass.

Mark 13:26 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

If you say this thing has come to pass, who witnessed Christ coming in the clouds with great power and glory? I would like to read the witnesses account of the coming of Christ. Thanks in advance.
 
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klutedavid

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The generation Jesus is as peaking of will not pass till all these things take place.
Correct, very good. That single verse causes a problem for some interpretations.

Obviously, Jesus is referring to the destruction of the temple and the sacking of Jerusalem. During the lifetime of the very generation that Jesus was speaking to.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Correct, very good. That single verse causes a problem for some interpretations.

Obviously, Jesus is referring to the destruction of the temple and the sacking of Jerusalem. During the lifetime of the very generation that Jesus was speaking to.

Mark 13:26 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Also there are no witnesses to say these things have come to pass. Josephus never said he witnessed these things nor has anyone else. Not even the Romans who were there witnessed these things.Why some people want to believe Christ returned in 70 AD without a single witness is crazy.
 
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Dave L

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Mark 13:26 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Also there are no witnesses to say these things have come to pass. Josephus never said he witnessed these things nor has anyone else. Not even the Romans who were there witnessed these things.Why some people want to believe Christ returned in 70 AD without a single witness is crazy.
I'm not a Preterist, but the historic Christian view of the two witnesses =
e. By two witnesses he meaneth all the preachers yt shulde buylde up Gods Church, alluding to Zorubbabel and Jehoshua which were chiefly appointed for this thing, and also to this saying, In the mouthe of two witnesses standeth everie worde.

Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 2, p. 118). Geneva: Rovland Hall.
 
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shilohsfoal

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I'm not a Preterist, but the historic Christian view of the two witnesses =
e. By two witnesses he meaneth all the preachers yt shulde buylde up Gods Church, alluding to Zorubbabel and Jehoshua which were chiefly appointed for this thing, and also to this saying, In the mouthe of two witnesses standeth everie worde.

Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 2, p. 118). Geneva: Rovland Hall.

I would think if Christ came in 70 AD, John would have filled us in. He didn't.
 
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tranquil

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Would it make more sense to you if I said the armed forces shall "place" the abomination that causes desolation?
Daniel 11:31 KJV: And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
You still have not answered my question. Scripture shows that the resurrection takes place when the armed forces place the abomination of desolation. Do you honestly believe the resurrection took place in 70 AD?

My approach to Daniel 11 is that if the verse does not have an explicit reference to a particular person, it is applicable to all three people: the King of the South, King of the North, & wicked Prince of the Covenant. 3 'antichrists' if you will.

For example, Russia is doing its best to fulfill Daniel 11:38 with its new cathedral dedicated to 'armed forces' Main Cathedral of the Russian Armed Forces - Wikipedia

I agree with your position that a nuclear device is part of this equation.
 
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Dave L

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My approach to Daniel 11 is that if the verse does not have an explicit reference to a particular person, it is applicable to all three people: the King of the South, King of the North, & wicked Prince of the Covenant. 3 'antichrists' if you will.

For example, Russia is doing its best to fulfill Daniel 11:38 with its new cathedral dedicated to 'armed forces' Main Cathedral of the Russian Armed Forces - Wikipedia

I agree with your position that a nuclear device is part of this equation.
So where does scripture say ANYTHING about Russia?
 
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shilohsfoal

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My approach to Daniel 11 is that if the verse does not have an explicit reference to a particular person, it is applicable to all three people: the King of the South, King of the North, & wicked Prince of the Covenant. 3 'antichrists' if you will.

For example, Russia is doing its best to fulfill Daniel 11:38 with its new cathedral dedicated to 'armed forces' Main Cathedral of the Russian Armed Forces - Wikipedia

I agree with your position that a nuclear device is part of this equation.

According to Daniel 11,the armed forces of the king if the north occupies Jerusalem for 42 months. I don't believe Israel would allow Russia to occupy Jerusalem. Whoever the king of the north is, would have to be a very close ally.
Do you agree?
 
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Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

.....................................................

The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.
 
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tranquil

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The 1260 days of the "woman" [church] being protected [Rev 12]
during the Great Commission and the "Two Witnesses [church]
giving "testimony" during the Great Commission [Rev 11] are both
BEFORE the Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast.

.

The 2 witnesses are during the beast and before the beast comes up.

That is the main problem the pre-wrath position has: there are 2 times that people 'go into wrath' - tempted into worshipping the abomination.

the typical pre-wrath position has to ignore the fact that there are 2 'gatherings' (not 'raptures') & 2 different times that people fall into wrath. The 2 'gatherings' are at the 7th Seal & after the 2 witnesses 1260 days when they are told to 'come up here'. It really couldn't be more explicit or obvious?

If one believes in a whisked away 'rapture', then the real pre-wrath position would be at the 7th Seal 'rapture' because they would not be around for the 2nd 'gathering' which occurs after the 2 witnesses 1260 days. That's why the link chart misplaces the 2 witnesses as occurring before the Trumpets - they can't wrap their head around being 'gathered' without being 'whisked away', but they have to account for the 2 witnesses being gathered, so they just rearrange the furniture til it fits.

The 7 Trumpets are the 7 Levitical punishments of Leviticus 26:18. The woman is potentially the bride or the harlot. The beast receives the 7 Trumpet punishments & the 7 bowls of wrath. The woman who is to become the harlot is receiving the 3 'woes' as a placeholder of sorts until the people within the 'woman' (not exactly the church) choose the abomination & the beast kingdom or the kingdom of heaven, which will be presented at the same time. At the 7th Trumpet is the 7 bowls of wrath for the harlot, the 7 Levitical punishments.

Also, the 'appointing' of the 2 witnesses is a particular event, not an ongoing event since 30 AD. They are symbolic of the church, but they are also 2 people- new Zerubabbel & new Joshua, which Haggai 2 puts this event on 24 Kislev. 24 Kislev plus 1260 days plus 3.5 days to lie dead takes us to 17 Iyyar, the 1st day of Noah's flood.
 
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tranquil

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According to Daniel 11,the armed forces of the king if the north occupies Jerusalem for 42 months. I don't believe Israel would allow Russia to occupy Jerusalem. Whoever the king of the north is, would have to be a very close ally.
Do you agree?

If I remember correctly, you think that the king of north is Trump, which I don't agree with. I would put Trump as the wicked prince of the covenant or the king of the South (spiritual Egypt = pyramid of Illuminati Freemasonry). Contextually, he appears to be the prince of the covenant (Peace to Prosperity Treaty), who gets 'broken' (looks to me as if this happens dusk Dec 18, 2020 - after the 62 weeks (which followed 7 weeks, 70 weeks, 70 years of Daniel 9).

I take the king of the North to be the UN president (flag is from the northern POV). It is possible that Putin (worshiping his church of armed forces) becomes the leader of the UN.

Back to your question, from nation state Israel's point of view - they would be making a covenant with Death (Trump, prince of the covenant) & Hades (king of the North). The UN would be protecting them from Islamic aggression.

That is the beauty of how prophecy is written, it incorporates different points of view. Allowing the evil to be deceived. The antichrist of Israel gets a 'Satan' ruling a 'one world govt' (the king of the North). The king of the North (global govt) gets an 'antichrist' in the prince of the covenant.

The microchip fits the description of the king of Israel (prince of the covenant) allying himself with the king of the South (Isaiah 36:6) in defiance of the King of the North (the 'one world govt' which by all rights might be physical cash based for the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses.)
 
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shilohsfoal

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If I remember correctly, you think that the king of north is Trump, which I don't agree with. I would put Trump as the wicked prince of the covenant or the king of the South (spiritual Egypt = pyramid of Illuminati Freemasonry). Contextually, he appears to be the prince of the covenant (Peace to Prosperity Treaty), who gets 'broken' (looks to me as if this happens dusk Dec 18, 2020 - after the 62 weeks (which followed 7 weeks, 70 weeks, 70 years of Daniel 9).

I take the king of the North to be the UN president (flag is from the northern POV). It is possible that Putin (worshiping his church of armed forces) becomes the leader of the UN.

Back to your question, from nation state Israel's point of view - they would be making a covenant with Death (Trump, prince of the covenant) & Hades (king of the North). The UN would be protecting them from Islamic aggression.

That is the beauty of how prophecy is written, it incorporates different points of view. Allowing the evil to be deceived. The antichrist of Israel gets a 'Satan' ruling a 'one world govt' (the king of the North). The king of the North (global govt) gets an 'antichrist' in the prince of the covenant.

The microchip fits the description of the king of Israel (prince of the covenant) allying himself with the king of the South (Isaiah 36:6) in defiance of the King of the North (the 'one world govt' which by all rights might be physical cash based for the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses.)

I believe the prince of the covenant is Supreme leader Ali Khamenei whom the leaders made a covenant with.

I believe the king of the South is Iraq. (Assyria).
 
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I believe the prince of the covenant is Supreme leader Ali Khamenei whom the leaders made a covenant with.

I believe the king of the South is Iraq. (Assyria).
Dan 9? v. 26 tells us it's Christ who makes the covenant.
 
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