God has to be sovereign or else there is no God.

BobRyan

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It wasn't Adam who fell.
Indeed it was...

Lucifer fell first...
1/3 of the angels fell next.
Eve fell next
Adam fell next.

But if Adam had not fallen - as Romans 5 points out - mankind would not have fallen

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

You have switched from "fell" to "deceived" - Adam was not deceived - he knew full well the pit he was stepping in to, he chose to "fall into sin" anyway.

I haven't changed I used your word in the first message and provided scripture in my second.

You did not quote me when you said that Adam did not fall... I never claimed he did not fall.
You did not quote me when you switched to "Adam was not deceived" ... I never claimed Adam was deceived.
 
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Oseas

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"WHOSOEVER WILL" may come.. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17)
"How I WANTED..but YOU were not WILLING" Matt 24.

"What MORE could I do than what I have already done? " Isaiah 5.
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

Sorry, but you did not answer the question correctly, or rather, everything you cited as a biblical reference refers after man sinned and became a prisoner of sin. Any discussion of the supposed free will must be proved before man sinned, that is, when he was created (Genesis), and not after his uncontrolled sinful state, right?

Many people believed in the name of JESUS when they saw the miracles He performed, but He did not trust in them or did not commit himself to them, for He knew what people are like, that is, He didn’t need anyone to inform Him about a person, because He knew what was in the person’s heart. John 2:23-25

That said, I renew the question I asked above as follows: Free will? Based on what Scripture are you discussing free will? Where is this written, I wonder? Does anyone have the answer to this question?
 
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messianist

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Indeed it was...

Lucifer fell first...
1/3 of the angels fell next.
Eve fell next
Adam fell next.

But if Adam had not fallen - as Romans 5 points out - mankind would not have fallen



You have switched from "fell" to "deceived" - Adam was not deceived - he knew full well the pit he was stepping in to, he chose to "fall into sin" anyway.



You did not quote me when you said that Adam did not fall... I never claimed he did not fall.
You did not quote me when you switched to "Adam was not deceived" ... I never claimed Adam was deceived.
I didn't say Adam was deciveved, hence the scripture I provided.

I took the word fall from your post you wrote.

I understand what you are saying in regards to Adam as he would have seen the affects from eve beeing deceived.
 
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BobRyan

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I didn't say Adam was deciveved, hence the scripture I provided.

And neither did I as I pointed out. I am glad we can agree on something.

I took the word fall from your post you wrote.

Yes.. I keep saying that Lucifer fell, Adam fell, 1/3 of the angels fell. That is true .. I do keep posting that.

I understand what you are saying in regards to Adam as he would have seen the affects from eve being deceived.

Not only that - but Eve had encountered " a talking serpent" at the forbidden tree which was probably a pretty stunning event. Whereas Adam encountered "talking Eve" which was not too unusual for Adam to see so he would not be amazed or dazzled by some sign/wonder/miracle/ as she had been.

For him it was more like "God said not to do it and now you did it ,,, and though you claim to have met a talking serpent that said you would be like God if you ate it - I don't see you being like God..".

For Adam the "temptation" was not that the serpent was too convincing.. for him the temptation comes in the form of "a captain goes down with his ship". He was in charge, the buck stops here, does he just let Eve "take the hit" or does he decide they are a team and whatever fate is to befall the one that God gave him to take care of -- should also befall him.

It was at first a noble idea - but in the larger picture -- his decision was going to doom all of mankind - her decision would only have doomed her. Satan was watching closely to see what he would decide.

In Luke 4 when Satan tempts Christ he offers Christ planet Earth and says "It has been handed over to me and I give it to whomever I wish" -- Adam handed it over by choosing Satan's plan over God's. In 2Cor 4:4 satan is called "the god of this world"
 
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Neostarwcc

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Sorry, but you did not answer the question correctly, or rather, everything you cited as a biblical reference refers after man sinned and became a prisoner of sin. Any discussion of the supposed free will must be proved before man sinned, that is, when he was created (Genesis), and not after his uncontrolled sinful state, right?

Many people believed in the name of JESUS when they saw the miracles He performed, but He did not trust in them or did not commit himself to them, for He knew what people are like, that is, He didn’t need anyone to inform Him about a person, because He knew what was in the person’s heart. John 2:23-25

That said, I renew the question I asked above as follows: Free will? Based on what Scripture are you discussing free will? Where is this written, I wonder? Does anyone have the answer to this question?

The answer is nowhere. The very few verses that Arminians twist that apparently say that people have a free will have been explained in their greek definitions time and time again by Reformed theologians from ages past,present , and future. The fact of the matter is Reformed Theology is actually biblical and taught all throughout Genesis to Revelation. Arminians use very little of scripture to support what they're saying.

Instead scripture says that all things happen and are done according to God's will and purpose (Ephesians 1:1, Jeremiah 10:23, Jeremiah 29:11, Proverbs 16:4, 9, Philipians 2:13 ...etc) You got the high paying job because God willed and allowed it. You didnt because it wasnt God's chosen plan for you. You got married to the woman (or man) you did because God chose themfor you. Especially if shes an unbeliever that you have a whole lifetime to pray and work on. I'm talking for believers anyway and believers who engage in heterosexual marriages. God only allows homosexual behavior and sins alike because it's a part of his purpose and maybe to punish them *shrug*. God also allows the devil to tempt and torment people so who are not we to question his ways? Sometimes things are tests that we pass or fail.

If you didnt get married than God called you to something else probably better. There is nothing that happens without God's permission (Lamentations 3:37). Nothing. You might think that you have freewill but the fact of the matter is, you don't. Every second of our lives was planned and foreordained by God (Psalm 139:16). And everything that comes to pass is from God and ALWAYS at God's perfect timing. He makes no mistakes.
 
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Oseas

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I understand what you are saying in regards to Adam as he would have seen the affects from eve beeing deceived.
[B said:
"BobRyan,[/B] post: 75138058, member: 235244"]Not only that - but Eve had encountered " a talking serpent" at the forbidden tree which was probably a pretty stunning event.

Hi BobRyan, and all

You know that the subject you are discussing is not so superficial, but very profound, as it is a very old event, some 6000 years old.
You know also that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Actually,
the material things are figures of spiritual things; the parables of our Lord JESUS are good examples.

That said, we must understand that
the "serpent" is the former Cherub who ruled the inhabitants of Eden. It is important to know who was Satan before the fall of him in Eden. God revealead who him was: Ezekiel 28:v.14-15 and 18-19 reveal:
14 Thou art (was)the anointed Cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
till iniquity was found in thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a FIRE from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ASHES upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:
thou shalt be a TERROR, and never shalt thou be any more.

Speaking of the old "serpent", remember that what is generated by a serpent, is also a serpent, of course. JESUS said to the multitude, and to the scribes and the Pharisees: Matt.23:v.33 - Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Why did JESUS called the Jews of serpents? JESUS gives us the answer of this question by His own words: John 8:v.44 - 44 Ye are of your father the Devil(the old Serpent), and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. What is generated by a serpent, is also a serpent, of course.

Revelation 12:v.3-4and 7&9:
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven
(what heaven? the heaven where you/we are now-Eph.1:v.3 and Phil.3:v.20-21); and behold a Great red Dragon, having (7)seven heads and (10)ten horns, and (7)seven crowns upon his (7) heads.
4 And his TAIL (
TAIL of the Dragon? Who are them? Isaiah 9:v.15-16 give us the answer) yeah, his TAIL drew the third part of the stars of heaven(the heaven where you/we are now), and did cast them to the earth ...

7 And there was WAR in heaven
((what heaven? the heaven where you/we are now-Eph.1:v.3 and Phil.3:v.20-21)): Michael and his messengers fought against the Dragon-Satan;(the Dragon having (7)seven heads and (10)ten horns, and (7)seven crowns upon his (7)heads), and the Dragon fought and his messengers(2Cor.11: v.13-15-check it out)
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the Great Dragon was cast out,
that old SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers (2Cor.11:v.13-15) were cast out with him.
 
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1213

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Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt....

Sorry, I don’t think those mean God plans negative things. And, in the pharaoh case, God hardened his heart by ending plagues, is that negative thing in your opinion?
 
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martymonster

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Sorry, I don’t think those mean God plans negative things. And, in the pharaoh case, God hardened his heart by ending plagues, is that negative thing in your opinion?

So Joseph's brothers thinking evil against Joseph, isn't negative?
Also, it says that God meant it for good, not "he turned it around and used it for good" or "He allowed it, and then used it for good"
It says he meant it.
 
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Oseas

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The answer is nowhere. The very few verses that Arminians twist that apparently say that people have a free will have been explained in their greek definitions time and time again by Reformed theologians from ages past,present , and future. The fact of the matter is Reformed Theology is actually biblical and taught all throughout Genesis to Revelation. Arminians use very little of scripture to support what they're saying.

Hi
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I agree, you are right, the answer is nowhere, it because "in reality, there is no real free will", as also said brother in Christ Bruce Leiter-post 74-. Things hard to be understood, many who try to interpret them unfortunately twist them unto their own destruction.

In my understand, the Word of God is very clear that there is not any "free will". Genesis 2:v.16-17 reveal us as follow:
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:...

As we can see, God ordered man: You shall not eat of it. It sounds in clear imperative voice and has nothing to do with the supposed "free will", and God allerted / warned man the why he should not eat it due the consequence of that action, saying to the man: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die. This is what I interpret by the Word of God. By the way, the Word is God.

Hi
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I agree, you are right, the answer is nowhere, it because "in reality, there is no real free will", as also said brother in Christ Bruce Leiter-post 74-. Things hard to be understood, many who try to interpret them unfortunately twist them unto their own destruction.

In my understand, the Word of God is very clear that there is not any "free will". Genesis 2:v.16-17 reveal us as follow:
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:...

As we can see, God ordered man: You shall not eat of it. It sounds in clear imperative voice and has nothing to do with the supposed "free will", and God allerted / warned man the why he should not eat it due the consequence of that action, saying to the man: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die. This is what I interpret by the Word of God. By the way, the Word is God.

Instead scripture says that all things happen and are done according to God's will and purpose (Ephesians 1:1, Jeremiah 10:23, Jeremiah 29:11, Proverbs 16:4, 9, Philipians 2:13 ...etc) You got the high paying job because God willed and allowed it. You didnt because it wasnt God's chosen plan for you. You got married to the woman (or man) you did because God chose themfor you. Especially if shes an unbeliever that you have a whole lifetime to pray and work on. I'm talking for believers anyway and believers who engage in heterosexual marriages. God only allows homosexual behavior and sins alike because it's a part of his purpose and maybe to punish them *shrug*. God also allows the devil to tempt and torment people so who are not we to question his ways? Sometimes things are tests that we pass or fail.

If you didnt get married than God called you to something else probably better. There is nothing that happens without God's permission (Lamentations 3:37). Nothing. You might think that you have freewill but the fact of the matter is, you don't. Every second of our lives was planned and foreordained by God (Psalm 139:16). And everything that comes to pass is from God and ALWAYS at God's perfect timing. He makes no mistakes.

Now unto the King Eternal, Immortal, Invisible, the only Wise God, be Honour and Glory for ever and ever. Amen.
 
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messianist

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And neither did I as I pointed out. I am glad we can agree on something.
Sorry I miss read your original post.


Yes.. I keep saying that Lucifer fell, Adam fell, 1/3 of the angels fell. That is true .. I do keep posting that.



Not only that - but Eve had encountered " a talking serpent" at the forbidden tree which was probably a pretty stunning event. Whereas Adam encountered "talking Eve" which was not too unusual for Adam to see so he would not be amazed or dazzled by some sign/wonder/miracle/ as she had been.

For him it was more like "God said not to do it and now you did it ,,, and though you claim to have met a talking serpent that said you would be like God if you ate it - I don't see you being like God..".

For Adam the "temptation" was not that the serpent was too convincing.. for him the temptation comes in the form of "a captain goes down with his ship". He was in charge, the buck stops here, does he just let Eve "take the hit" or does he decide they are a team and whatever fate is to befall the one that God gave him to take care of -- should also befall him.

It was at first a noble idea - but in the larger picture -- his decision was going to doom all of mankind - her decision would only have doomed her. Satan was watching closely to see what he would decide.

In Luke 4 when Satan tempts Christ he offers Christ planet Earth and says "It has been handed over to me and I give it to whomever I wish" -- Adam handed it over by choosing Satan's plan over God's. In 2Cor 4:4 satan is called "the god of this world"
 
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Neostarwcc

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Sorry, I don’t think those mean God plans negative things. And, in the pharaoh case, God hardened his heart by ending plagues, is that negative thing in your opinion?

Sometimes he does. Take what happened to Joseph for example. His brothers meant to kill him and threw him in a pit but instead sold him into slavery. Well you know the rest of the story, Pharoah adopts Joseph a d Joseph meets his brothers again and rescues them from the famine they suffered for and his brothers accepted Joseph into the family again. His brothers meant evil against Joseph but God meant the evil that befell him into good. Sometimes God predestines evil to turn it into a greater good.

As for the plagues against Egypt. God hardened Pharoahs heart because God wanted Pharoah to release the Israelites on God's terms. Which he hoped would make the Israrlites worship him. But instead they had the high priest make a golden calf and they worshipped that instead as their redeemer from Egypt.

But yeah. God does stuff on his own terms. It's right and proper because hes God. Hes the ruler of all.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Not to mention Jonah, or Paul, while my mind is on a nautical theme.

Psalm 197:23 Those who go down to the sea in ships,
Who do business on great waters;
24 They have seen the works of the Lord,
And His wonders in the deep.
25 For He spoke and raised up a stormy wind,
Which lifted up the waves of the sea.
26 They rose up to the heavens, they went down to the depths;
Their soul melted away in their misery.
27 They reeled and staggered like a drunken man,
And were at their wits’ end.
28 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
And He brought them out of their distresses.
29 He caused the storm to be still,
So that the waves of the sea were hushed.
30 Then they were glad because they were quiet,
So He guided them to their desired haven.
31 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
32 Let them extol Him also in the congregation of the people,
And praise Him at the seat of the elders.
 
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...Sometimes God predestines evil to turn it into a greater good.

As for the plagues against Egypt. God hardened Pharoahs heart because God wanted Pharoah to release the Israelites on God's terms. ...

But, according to the story, every time pharaohs heart was hardened, he didn’t allow them to go. He allowed it only when his heart softened, which happened when there was plague going.
 
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bbbbbbb

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But, according to the story, every time pharaohs heart was hardened, he didn’t allow them to go. He allowed it only when his heart softened, which happened when there was plague going.

I see you overlooked my post. Do you think that the storms at sea for Jonah and for Paul were just pleasant niceties created by God or that they merely happened to be coincidences?
 
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hedrick

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If you believe God isn't sovereign or completely in control of all things than you're basically an athiest. Because without his sovereignty and power there can be no God and atheists finally have indisputable proof that God doesnt exist.
You are saying that if God doesn't control everything he isn't God, because God is defined as someone who controls everything.

Biblical statements about God's power do not say that he controls everything. They say that he can control anything he wants to. You can just as easily find statements that God is surprised or changes his mind. As a result of this, there are various ideas about how God interacts with human choice. You can reasonably prefer some of these over others, but it's silly to say that if someone doesn't agree with you, they are an atheist. This posting borders on hysteria in its tone, and is unlikely to convince anyone.

In reality, if we look at what Scripture as a whole says, it says that God is powerful, that he has plans which will not be thwarted, and that we are only saved through his initiative, so we can't consider it our accomplishment. It also says that we are responsible, and speaks of him as responding to our decisions.

Traditional Reformed theology maintains divine control, and uses compatibilism to retain real human choice and responsibility. Unlike many, I think compatibilism is logically sound, even though many find it hard to grasp.

Arminianism says both God and humans have an essential role in human decisions.

Open theism and similar movements say that God does not fully determine events, either because he can't, or because he has intentionally limited his actions in order to provide room for human responsibility.

All of these approaches attempt to do justice to the range of statements we find in Scripture about God.

As far as things other than human decisions, one traditional viewpoint is that God does everything for a reason. This tends to turn into looking at everyday happenings as reward or punishments from God, although those are certainly not the only reasons God might do something. An alternative would be to see God's power in the ability to bring good out of evil, an enterprise in which he has given us a key role. Scripture sees God at work in many ways, but I believe it falls short of saying that he controls everything.
 
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