Civil Rights Law Protects L.G.B.T. Workers, Supreme Court Rules

RestoreTheJoy · Jul 5, 2020

46AND2 said:
What is a pastor who has lost his faith to do? He has spent countless years in college and seminary, started a family, bought a house. All he knows how to do is preach. I also highly suspect that that website, which I have not looked at yet, has a lot of information for these people on what they CAN do; resources to help them transition OUT of the church; advice on how to "come out of the closet" to their congregation. Heck, how to come out to their family!

I think you have the wrong idea about this. We aren't saying that there are atheists who purposely choose to go become a pastor. I can't say that never happens, but I'm sure it is exceedingly rare. These are people who started out as believers, and lost their faith along the way, during their pastoral employment. And that involves a lot of fear. Fear of losing friends, fear of losing family, fear of being unable to provide for their family. The ones who remain in their position don't WANT to be deceptive, they are just afraid not to be, and worse, they don't believe anymore that there is a god to help them through that fear.

He is supposed to be HONEST. Get OUT if you can't fulfill this calling in good conscience. An unbelieving pastor is sort of like a husband or wife who doesn't want to be married to you, in a sense.

I don't believe many atheists would become an unbelieving pastor on purpose, but if that's where you have ended up, you get out. You don't dare keep leading people and lying to them. And anyone who actually has the Spirit of God would know you were faking it pretty soon, especially spouses and kids.

The Bible says that those who teach are that much more held to account (one should know this even if you don't believe it).

RestoreTheJoy · Jul 5, 2020

Quartermaine said:
the school board eventually apologized and reinstated him and in their apology admitted that he was fired just because he was gay

"On behalf of the MESD Board and administration, I acknowledge and apologize to those who were impacted by discriminatory actions, on the basis of sexual orientation, that occurred in the past and reaffirm the agency’s commitment to an ongoing practice of dismantling these harmful and inhumane actions.
We apologize to Mr. Brett Bigham. No one should have to endure the discriminatory actions that Mr. Bigham describes experiencing at MESD. They were wrong when they occurred, just as they would be wrong today."
Helen L. Ying Board Chair Multnomah ESD 6/16/20

...

Yes millions of gays and lesbians have lost thier jobs just because they are who they are. Fortunately that sort of sick hate and discrimination are illegal now

Millions? Yeah, right. Not even close. You trotted out a few rare examples, in reality.

And some of those were undoubtedly fired on other grounds, as were the ones I found when digging into the facts.

RestoreTheJoy · Jul 5, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
I doubt Jesus would be bothered all that much by atheist clergy as much as he would be by his followers who more closely resemble the pharisees who put him to death.

Both would be problematic.

FireDragon76 · Jul 5, 2020

RestoreTheJoy said:
Both would be problematic.

According to the Gospel of Mark, the earliest Gospel we seem to have, Jesus last words before his death were "My God, My God... why have you forsaken me?" Which would seem to suggest that Jesus doesn't have that much against atheists.

46AND2 · Jul 5, 2020

RestoreTheJoy said:
He is supposed to be HONEST. Get OUT if you can't fulfill this calling in good conscience. An unbelieving pastor is sort of like a husband or wife who doesn't want to be married to you, in a sense.

I don't believe many atheists would become an unbelieving pastor on purpose, but if that's where you have ended up, you get out. You don't dare keep leading people and lying to them. And anyone who actually has the Spirit of God would know you were faking it pretty soon, especially spouses and kids.

The Bible says that those who teach are that much more held to account (one should know this even if you don't believe it).

Easier said than done when the consequences may be losing your wife and other family and friends.

Caliban · Jul 5, 2020

46AND2 said:
Easier said than done when the consequences may be losing your wife and other family and friends.

Check out The Clergy Project. It happens all the time.

FireDragon76 · Jul 5, 2020

Caliban said:
Check out The Clergy Project. It happens all the time.

I understand fully how painful it is to walk away from ones religion. It must be even worse if your livelihood and sense of community are deeply tied up in it. People like that deserve compassion, not scorn.

Quartermaine · Jul 5, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
Why do you keep bringing up the gay thing? We're talking about lifestyles I disagree with.

No you didn't you asked about lifestyles that I disagree with. Do you understand the difference?

What did I say that gave you this impression?

"IMO if they have to live in fear, that is a good thing; perhaps they will get out and start living a healthy lifestyle."

Quartermaine · Jul 5, 2020

Swag365 said:
Well, would it be OK to fire a teacher if he posted a picture of himself as a member of the KKK, or with a biz Nazi tattoo on his chest? I think most people would say that the teacher can be fired because he does not represent the morality that school expects its teachers to exhibit towards its students.

I think it is essentially the same principle on which the teacher in a same-sex marriage is fired - that the teacher does not represent the morality that the school expects its teachers to exhibit.

And before anyone has a hissy fit, let me clarify that racism and same-sex marriage are not moral equivalents.

then why did you equate the two?

Swag365 · Jul 5, 2020

Quartermaine said:
then why did you equate the two?

I did not equate them. Try again.

Quartermaine · Jul 5, 2020

RestoreTheJoy said:
Millions? Yeah, right. Not even close.

evidence?

And some of those were undoubtedly fired on other grounds, as were the ones I found when digging into the facts.

the ones you brought up here were fired or denied jobs for being gay

Quartermaine · Jul 5, 2020

Swag365 said:
I did not equate them. Try again.

you said: "would it be OK to fire a teacher if he posted a picture of himself as a member of the KKK, or with a biz Nazi tattoo on his chest?"

and then said:
"I think it is essentially the same principle on which the teacher in a same-sex marriage is fired"

if two things are essentially the same then you are equating them.

Swag365 · Jul 5, 2020

Quartermaine said:
you said: "would it be OK to fire a teacher if he posted a picture of himself as a member of the KKK, or with a biz Nazi tattoo on his chest?"

and then said:
"I think it is essentially the same principle on which the teacher in a same-sex marriage is fired"

if two things are essentially the same then you are equating them.

I did not state that the two are essentially the same. Try again.

Quartermaine · Jul 5, 2020

Swag365 said:
I did not state that the two are essentially the same. Try again.

"I think it is essentially the same"

RestoreTheJoy · Jul 6, 2020

Quartermaine said:
evidence?

I didn't make the ridiculous assertion that "millions" have been fired. It cannot be defended.

And false. The ones I saw were fired largely for other reasons. There were some exceptions, which I pointed out.

RestoreTheJoy · Jul 6, 2020

RestoreTheJoy said:
I didn't make the ridiculous assertion that "millions" have been fired. It cannot be defended.

46AND2 said:
Easier said than done when the consequences may be losing your wife and other family and friends.

Impossible to continue as an imposter. Out yourself or you will be outed; I can't imagine anyone is so little known that no one -not even those closest to him- realizes anything is seriously wrong. Or else that is one dead church.

RestoreTheJoy · Jul 6, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
According to the Gospel of Mark, the earliest Gospel we seem to have, Jesus last words before his death were "My God, My God... why have you forsaken me?" Which would seem to suggest that Jesus doesn't have that much against atheists.

And if you read further, you will understand why He said those words.

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN · Jul 6, 2020

SummerMadness said:
Civil Rights Law Protects L.G.B.T. Workers, Supreme Court Rules

Good, they shouldn't be fired for being L.G.B.T.

KCfromNC · Jul 6, 2020

Arc F1 said:
My only claim is that I don't agree with homosexuality

Yeah, I get that. I was just exploring the idea that none of the rationalizations presented for this disagreement seem to make and sense at all.

KCfromNC · Jul 6, 2020

Swag365 said:
Well, would it be OK to fire a teacher if he posted a picture of himself as a member of the KKK, or with a biz Nazi tattoo on his chest? I think most people would say that the teacher can be fired because he does not represent the morality that school expects its teachers to exhibit towards its students.

I think it is essentially the same principle on which the teacher in a same-sex marriage is fired - that the teacher does not represent the morality that the school expects its teachers to exhibit.

If you don't already see a difference between who a person dates and endorsing an ideology that wants to kill people who are the wrong type of minority I'm not sure I'd be able to explain that difference to you in this forum.

And before anyone has a hissy fit, let me clarify that racism and same-sex marriage are not moral equivalents.

And yet you felt a need to resort to the comparison.

Civil Rights Law Protects L.G.B.T. Workers, Supreme Court Rules

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