Anti-Christ update

jgr

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The 144k are not all Jews. Only 2 of the 12 tribes are Jewish.
The other 10 are the Western peoples, now the majority of the Christians.
John sees them all in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9 and Jesus selects the 144k out of them in Revelation 14:1-5
They go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom. Rev 14:6-7, Isaiah 66:19

Are they members of the Church?
 
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shilohsfoal

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Well his was teh first of four gentile kingdoms. Israel is not Babylon! As you have alleged prior. Part of teh fourth beast relies on the power of Nebuchadnezzar in his day but no the fourth beast is not Babylon.

Babylon the great is a religious system established long before Nebuchadnezzar and the rebuilt city of Babylon right now has 6,000,000 bricks from the original Babylon.

It's Nebuchadnezzar statue that stands on those two feet with ten toes. You better believe it's his kingdom.
 
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Timtofly

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Are they members of the Church?
Yes, but not the same. The disciples were not part of a church, until Christ was taken away. It depends on your definition of Church though. Jesus made a distinction between a comforter who would come, but could not come, until Jesus left. John 16:7

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”

That did not mean that when the disciples during Jesus' ministry did not have the Holy Spirit power. This congregation of 144K will be under the Lamb's direct ministry. Revelation 14:4-5

4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb;
5 on their lips no lie was found — they are without defect.

When they were sealed it was a call to directly minister with the Lamb. Revelation 7:3

“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads!”

Servants of God, going where ever the Lamb goes. They are the last of the church, like the original 12, were the first of the church. The Holy Spirit not a distinction at this time, but still at work in them.
 
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Timtofly

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It's Nebuchadnezzar statue that stands on those two feet with ten toes. You better believe it's his kingdom.
It was God's statue, given to Nebuchadnezzer in a dream. It is whoever God sets up as a government.
 
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jgr

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Yes, but not the same.

There is only one Church. Dispensationalism claims that it has already been raptured. Thus, dispensationally, the 144,000 cannot be part of the Church.

However, Revelation 7:1-3 reveals that the Church is still on the earth, performing and/or having performed her work of evangelism, and obviating any role for Jewish or any other evangelists. The 144,000 signify that Church.

The disciples were not part of a church

Christ was already building His Church (Matthew 16:18), of which His disciples were its first NT members.

When they were sealed

Ref. my original post. Only the Church is sealed. If they are sealed, then they are part of the Church, whose members are distinguished exclusively not by physical DNA, but by the spiritual DNA of faith and obedience.
 
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shilohsfoal

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It was God's statue, given to Nebuchadnezzer in a dream. It is whoever God sets up as a government.

I would not say the statue is God seeing the scripture says Nebuchadnezzar is the head of that statue.Its more Nebuchadnezars kingdom throughout the centuries beginning with him down to the devided kingdom it is today (ten toes).

It doesn't have anything to do with other governments such as China or the USA.
Just his kingdom.
 
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Timtofly

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However, Revelation 7:1-3 reveals that the Church is still on the earth, performing and/or having performed her work of evangelism, and obviating any role for Jewish or any other evangelists. The 144,000 signify that Church.
No, the church is not those in verses 1-3. The 144k did not go up to the throne. They were called out after those in Revelation 7:9

9 After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands;

This group, too large for any one to count, were not on earth. They were at the throne of God. Revelation is not about the church, after the first 4 chapters. Yet the church did go through the 4 seals. Now before the 7th seal is opened the church is around the throne. The throne of God that all on earth can now see. Saying that at the opening of the 7th seal, any church is on earth would be wrong. Except the 144K. They are not the church, yet are apart of the church. They are now the Lamb's disciples on earth. Now the harvest of sheep and goats, wheat and tares begins. From the 7th seal on, saints are not from the church age. Saints are those who come directly to the Lamb and harvested. They are not raptured. They do die. They are resurrected after, the end of the harvest, the first day of the last 1000 years.

The Day of the Lord Resurrection, eternally sets up those saints, from the 7th seal to the final harvest, to live on earth, and then into the new earth. Those damned on that day, from the final harvest are those of Death. Death is judged differently. Revelation 20:12-13

12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done.

At the beginning of the 1000 years was the resurrection. Revelation 20:4-5

They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.

This is the resurrection of John 5:22-29

22 The Father does not judge anyone but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever fails to honor the Son is not honoring the Father who sent him.
24 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life — that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!
25 Yes, indeed! I tell you that there is coming a time — in fact, it’s already here — when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who listen will come to life.
26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given the Son life to have in himself.
27 Also he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
28 Don’t be surprised at this; because the time is coming when all who are in the grave will hear his voice
29 and come out — those who have done good to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to a resurrection of judgment.

These verses apply during the Second Coming ministry, just like the first coming ministry. Two times, one that had already happened when John wrote the Gospel. One still in the future. Jesus taught of the coming harvest, both the end of the OT, and the final one at the end of the church age. The only thing that was not taught: that it would be another 1990 years.

The Cross event was the first Resurrection of the church age. The only one actually. The next resurrection will be the first one of the final 1000 years. The first resurrection placed the OT saints in Paradise. The first one in Revelation will place them in restored Jerusalem on earth, for the last 1000 years of this reality.

The OT Saints are the church, but not on earth. The Millennium saints are the church, but only on earth. The church after the 6th seal, per Revelation 7, will always be in the temple of God, Paradise. When the New Jerusalem comes down in the Next reality, they will be in that new Paradise. Those on earth at the GWT, will be the "church" on the New earth.

Paul preached that the living church is always alive in Christ. Even those who die in Christ are not dead, or in Death. They are alive with Christ. There will never be a resurrection for the church that is alive or passed on to glory.
 
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Timtofly

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I would not say the statue is God seeing the scripture says Nebuchadnezzar is the head of that statue.Its more Nebuchadnezars kingdom throughout the centuries beginning with him down to the devided kingdom it is today (ten toes).

It doesn't have anything to do with other governments such as China or the USA.
Just his kingdom.
So the Greeks, Romans, and Europe all descendants of Nebuchadnezzer?
 
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shilohsfoal

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So the Greeks, Romans, and Europe all descendants of Nebuchadnezzer?

Doesn't have anything to do with Greeks, Roman's or Europe. Some people assume it does but that is just thier assumption. When you look at the area of land given to the saints after the beast is killed, you would find the saints dwelling in the promised land. Not in Rome. So why even bring Rome into the conversation? The saints will be dwelling in Jerusalem after the beast is destroyed. Not Rome.

Revelation 20:9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

You believe Rome, Greece and Europe is the beloved city?
 
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Timtofly

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Doesn't have anything to do with Greeks, Roman's or Europe. Some people assume it does but that is just thier assumption. When you look at the area of land given to the saints after the beast is killed, you would find the saints dwelling in the promised land. Not in Rome. So why even bring Rome into the conversation? The saints will be dwelling in Jerusalem after the beast is destroyed. Not Rome.

Revelation 20:9 And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

You believe Rome, Greece and Europe is the beloved city?
Because Greece and the Roman Empire ruled all that land that Nebuchadnezar ruled over. That is why. You do not even know the extent of Nebuchadnezzer's Rule, do you? You do not know the extent of the Greeks, do you? Each time it changed hands, it got smaller, not larger.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Because Greece and the Roman Empire ruled all that land that Nebuchadnezar ruled over. That is why. You do not even know the extent of Nebuchadnezzer's Rule, do you? You do not know the extent of the Greeks, do you? Each time it changed hands, it got smaller, not larger.

I know the extent of the Greeks rule but they were not of Nebuchadnezars kingdom.I'm. Looking at the extent of Nebuchadnezars kingdom, not the Greeks. Mongals or Russia.or Great Britton.
 
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Timtofly

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I know the extent of the Greeks rule but they were not of Nebuchadnezars kingdom.I'm. Looking at the extent of Nebuchadnezars kingdom, not the Greeks. Mongals or Russia.or Great Britton.
The extent of Nebuchadnezzer's kingdom was given to the Medes and Persians. Daniel 5:28 "‘P’res’ — your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and Persians.”
 
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shilohsfoal

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The extent of Nebuchadnezzer's kingdom was given to the Medes and Persians. Daniel 5:28 "‘P’res’ — your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and Persians.”

Yea but even though the Greeks was given The promised land, the promised land is not in Greece.
You understand? Greece was not of the promised land.Nevermind.
 
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Timtofly

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Yea but even though the Greeks was given The promised land, the promised land is not in Greece.
You understand? Greece was not of the promised land.Nevermind.
Sorry.

It really was not about one king. It was about God setting up a worldly kingdom. A kingdom that would be a thorn in the side of His chosen people.
 
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Douggg

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Sorry.

It really was not about one king. It was about God setting up a worldly kingdom. A kingdom that would be a thorn in the side of His chosen people.
Timtofly, care to make a stand in my thread?

Where do you fit ?
 
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shilohsfoal

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Sorry.

It really was not about one king. It was about God setting up a worldly kingdom. A kingdom that would be a thorn in the side of His chosen people.

It's not about the world. It's just about one area of land. There are alot of people who believe the beast is Rome. They believe that is the kingdom spoken of that will be destroyed. But scripture says the kingdom that is destroyed is then given to the saints.
Well, as it turns out the saints are seen living in Jerusalem after the beast is destroyed. Not Rome. And Rome was never promised to the saints(Abraham's seed).

Why would Rome be destroyed when God has promised the land now governed by the Israeli government and its Muslim neighbors, to the saints(Abrahams seed)?
 
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Timtofly

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It's not about the world. It's just about one area of land. There are alot of people who believe the beast is Rome. They believe that is the kingdom spoken of that will be destroyed. But scripture says the kingdom that is destroyed is then given to the saints.
Well, as it turns out the saints are seen living in Jerusalem after the beast is destroyed. Not Rome. And Rome was never promised to the saints(Abraham's seed).

Why would Rome be destroyed when God has promised the land now governed by the Israeli government and its Muslim neighbors, to the saints(Abrahams seed)?
I never said it was Rome. Europe lost control of the middle east. Unless you accept it was part of the British Empire. But the UK was never a part of the EU, until after Israel was handed back to the Jews. Nebuchadnezzer never set up a throne in Jerusalem.

This area of land still has nothing to do with Babylon or a world kingdom. It was just, "trodden under foot". Meaning the world never let Israel succeed as a nation.
 
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keras

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However, Revelation 7:1-3 reveals that the Church is still on the earth, performing and/or having performed her work of evangelism, and obviating any role for Jewish or any other evangelists. The 144,000 signify that Church.
Right. Proved by Isaiah 66:19, where those young undefiled people go out in pairs to proclaim the coming Kingdom. As the 72 did in Luke 10:1-10
Only the Church is sealed. If they are sealed, then they are part of the Church, whose members are distinguished exclusively not by physical DNA, but by the spiritual DNA of faith and obedience.
Again right. We Christians receive the Seal of God, those who follow the false Anti-Christ will get his mark.
9 After this, I looked; and there before me was a huge crowd, too large for anyone to count, from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing in front of the throne and in front of the Lamb, dressed in white robes and holding palm branches in their hands;
This group, too large for any one to count, were not on earth. They were at the throne of God.
Wrong. The vast multitude are on earth. God will allow His Throne to be seen then. Also we see the Jesus will stand on Mt Zion then, Revelation 14:1
 
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5thKingdom

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Right. Proved by Isaiah 66:19, where those young undefiled people go out in pairs to proclaim the coming Kingdom. As the 72 did in Luke 10:1-10

Again right. We Christians receive the Seal of God, those who follow the false Anti-Christ will get his mark.

Wrong. The vast multitude are on earth. God will allow His Throne to be seen then. Also we see the Jesus will stand on Mt Zion then, Revelation 14:1


The Mt Zion is spiritual as are the 144,000, representing all saved.
Please tell me you don't think verses 14-20 are physical?

.
 
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keras

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The Mt Zion is spiritual as are the 144,000, representing all saved.
Please tell me you don't think verses 14-20 are physical?.
Revelation 14:14-20 is the metaphorical story about the Sixth Seal disaster, which will more seriously affect the Middle East region. Zephaniah 2:4, Isaiah 17:1, +

Millions will die; Isaiah 63:1-6 The Lord comes from the nations, His garments splashed with blood, His Day of vengeance had come and He tramped on them and spilled out their blood.
This verse is also proof that the Lords Day of fiery wrath is years before His Return, when He come with garments already splashed with blood. Revelation 19:13
 
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