Hawk Newsome BLM "If this country doesn't give us what we want we will burn down the system.."

ZNP

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The probationary process is, in my view, a form of due process. Performance is assessed, management is involved, there is paperwork. The bar for letting people go is lower than for established personnel, but it's not completely arbitrary.
Then you agree that dismissing cops based solely on bad press is "due process" if they have not gotten through the probationary period yet?
 
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ZNP

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OK, suppose I run a pizza joint, I hire a worker to help deliver my pizza's, but it turns out this person makes the news doing something that would incite people to protest in front of my pizza joint and put me out of business. Is that a fair reason for me to let this guy go?
 
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RDKirk

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OK, suppose I run a pizza joint, I hire a worker to help deliver my pizza's, but it turns out this person makes the news doing something that would incite people to protest in front of my pizza joint and put me out of business. Is that a fair reason for me to let this guy go?

Not the same thing.

Even with everything above board and proper, a police officer can get "bad press," and even a good police department understand that.

OTOH, the pizza store owner depends on continuous "good press" to bring customers into the store. Very different situation.
 
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ZNP

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Not the same thing.

Even with everything above board and proper, a police officer can get "bad press," and even a good police department understand that.

OTOH, the pizza store owner depends on continuous "good press" to bring customers into the store. Very different situation.
I prefer to keep it simple. Pizza owner is in business to make money. This new employee will not in any way compensate for the loss. Second, dismissing him is fully justified, if he had seen the embarrassing photos/video prior to hiring him he never would have, that is the point of a probationary period.

Likewise the police department has to run according to a return on investment. Will an officer who causes a riot ever be worth it? What is the cost of keeping him versus the cost of firing him? What is the point of having a probationary period if not for this? Finally, who are the "customers" of the police department, aren't they the tax payers who have just been insulted by this policeman's video?
 
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RDKirk

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I prefer to keep it simple. Pizza owner is in business to make money. This new employee will not in any way compensate for the loss. Second, dismissing him is fully justified, if he had seen the embarrassing photos/video prior to hiring him he never would have, that is the point of a probationary period.

Likewise the police department has to run according to a return on investment. Will an officer who causes a riot ever be worth it? What is the cost of keeping him versus the cost of firing him? What is the point of having a probationary period if not for this? Finally, who are the "customers" of the police department, aren't they the tax payers who have just been insulted by this policeman's video?

"Bad press" and "riot" are two different things. "Bad press" rarely causes a riot.
 
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Aldebaran

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They certainly seem to be acting just like America's founding fathers, don't they?

Nope! They were God-fearing.

"you guys"??? I'm not the one advocating for looting and violent revolt - that would be YOU guys.

Yes, you guys--as evidenced by your next statement.....

Yeah, same situation in Syria... Glad you recognize that the American government destroyed them in a racist way also.

^_^
 
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Aldebaran

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MLK did acknowledge that riots are the voice of the unheard. A lot of people want to think that MLK went no further than "...I have a dream" and don't want to look at his calls for economic justice.

Yes, he did go further than "I have a dream". He went on to say something about judging people based on their character rather than their skin color. When will BLM and other such groups start talking that way instead of whining and moaning about how their feeling are hurt because all they can think about is how to be offended?
 
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Aldebaran

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ZNP

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"Bad press" and "riot" are two different things. "Bad press" rarely causes a riot.
You have cops mocking a person who was killed by cops taking them into custody and you have that on video. You don't think that will cause BLM protests, calls to defund the police, and possibly even riots and looting? If you were the chief and you decided to hold on to these cops it is your job that is on the line if there is a riot.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Nope! They were God-fearing.
Which god? They were occultists/masons.

Yes, you guys--as evidenced by your next statement.....
How so? Empty accusation. You are the one supporting the looting and rioting and armed, violent, bloody rebellion of the colonists.
 
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RDKirk

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Yes, he did go further than "I have a dream". He went on to say something about judging people based on their character rather than their skin color. When will BLM and other such groups start talking that way instead of whining and moaning about how their feeling are hurt because all they can think about is how to be offended?

You haven't even gotten past that one speech.
 
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RDKirk

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You have cops mocking a person who was killed by cops taking them into custody and you have that on video. You don't think that will cause BLM protests, calls to defund the police, and possibly even riots and looting? If you were the chief and you decided to hold on to these cops it is your job that is on the line if there is a riot.

Let's first see if there is a riot.

Let's also see if those cops wouldn't have been guilty of violating police standards anyway.

A cop can get "bad press" without having violated police standards...the optics of the moment may have merely been bad.
 
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ZNP

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Let's first see if there is a riot.

Let's also see if those cops wouldn't have been guilty of violating police standards anyway.

A cop can get "bad press" without having violated police standards...the optics of the moment may have merely been bad.
So let me get this straight, we do nothing until there is a riot, then we fire them, telling everyone they run the police, all they got to do is riot and we'll do whatever they say? Mayor is going to fire you immediately to placate the chamber of commerce. Businessmen expect the police to prevent riots, not allow riots to dictate policy.
 
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Sparagmos

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You mean the same kinds of numbers people want to use to protest and riot because of the police? You desperately want to downplay the numbers of the rioters in comparison to the good protestors, but won't give the cops the same consideration. No you want to protest against them and defund them.

Sounds to me like you being a bit hypocritical.
That’s a nonsensical comparison, as @Eight Foot Manchild has already laid out.

You don’t seem to know how many rioters there are, and don’t seem to be aware of all of the peaceful protesting that’s been going on. You’re making a lot of allegations about protesters that you haven’t backed up with any data. I propose you step away from this discussion and do some research, then come back when you can back your claims up. It’s not our job to disprove your grossly hyperbolic allegations.
 
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RDKirk

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So let me get this straight, we do nothing until there is a riot, then we fire them, telling everyone they run the police, all they got to do is riot and we'll do whatever they say? Mayor is going to fire you immediately to placate the chamber of commerce. Businessmen expect the police to prevent riots, not allow riots to dictate policy.

You investigate whether the officer properly did what procedures and policy required him to do.
 
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Aldebaran

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You haven't even gotten past that one speech.

Why should I "get past" it? It was his most famous. It's also the one black activist groups used to quote because it's what they said represented what they want. Now all they talk about is how they're offended by anything and everything.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Well, "getting rid of the current system" has always been one of their goals.

That's the issue I've had, and still have, with these "noble titled movements", that come with all sorts of unrelated baggage to the actual message in the name.

It's the same for "BlackLivesMatter" and "AntiFa".

There's a reason why if you were to ask a large group of people the following questions:

"Do you think that Black lives matter, and that disparities in the criminal justice system have disproportionately impacted Black Americans?"
and...
"Do you oppose fascism?"

vs...

"Do you support the #BLM organization and/or Antifa movement?"


You'd get very different Yes/No breakdowns in the aggregated responses.


Both the BLM organization (by admission of their co-founders, who openly stated that "we're trained Marxists"...there's video of them saying it openly)
The video has since been "unlisted" on youtube, however you can still get to it if you know the URL, which I saved a few years back when I first watched it.
upload_2020-7-4_18-31-44.png

upload_2020-7-4_18-32-12.png

(it's not a doctored video or anything, it's directly from the organization that did the interview "The Real News Network, which is a leftist group)

I can't embed the video directly due to some language, but if you type in the URL, it's an interview with BLM founder Patrisse Cullors
https://blacklivesmatter.com/our-co-founders/


...as well as the AntiFa movement, are both rooted in neo-Marxism/anarcho-communism. That's the part that people object to.

Maybe if people want others to get behind those ideas, they need to rally behind some sensible groups who oppose those things that aren't in the form of groups that are trying to use the Trojan Horse approach to inject neo-marxism or anarcho-communism into society as one of their goals on the back of their more noble sounding title.

The reality is, you don't need to embrace marxism in order to fight against police corruption, and you certain don't need to in order to combat fascism.

...and that's where the word games come in, because if you verbally oppose either of them for the marxism aspect, you're immediately met with a snarky "gotcha" response of "oh, so I guess you're pro-fascism!" or "oh, so I guess you don't think that Black lives matter!"


Several other first-world industrialized countries have been able to address issues of police accountability, racism, and a wide variety of other systemic issues without having to implement a garbage ideology like marxism (or any variation of it)

I'm more than happy to fight against race-based brutality and white nationalism...however, I refuse to endorse any group embracing communism or marxism. I don't care how noble the title sounds. There could be a group called "let's stop hitting kittens with golf clubs", if marxism was one of their other goals, I wouldn't support them.
 
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ZNP

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You investigate whether the officer properly did what procedures and policy required him to do.
The only cops I am aware of that got fired within 1 day of a video surfacing of them were those who were mocking a kid who was choked to death by the cops. It was the kid with hemophilia that was wearing a face mask. What investigation do you need to do? If these cops were already out of probation they couldn't have been fired, so these are cops on probation publicly mocking the death of an innocent kid who had done nothing wrong. What more do you need to know?
 
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