BLM leader denounces icons of "white Jesus"

ArmyMatt

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tz620q

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I understand slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, and other past wrongs occurred and made life hell, but there has to come a point where the Thomas Sowells, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomases, Thurgood Marshalls, Ben Carsons become more the norm and less the exception.
At some point racism complaints and white privilege excuses need to be replaced with industry, prayer, fortitude, and cohesion.

I agree. This is truly the point where ideology pushes the wrong heroes. I remember watching a speech that Colin Powell gave at Tuskegee University at the unveiling of a statue dedicated to the "buffalo" soldiers, the nearly all black 9th and 10th Calvary Regiments that fought in the West right after the Civil War. The assembled crowd was mainly Tuskegee students and I am sure that they came that day to hear Powell offer liberal rhetoric on the awful oppression that these men had overcome. Powell started by looking at the statue, looking at the seated crowd and saying, "I want you all to remember that you are sitting in that seat today, because of the sacrifices of these men." It set the tone for the rest of his speech where he made those there remember to have gratitude for those who had fought for their freedom. Freedom that is given can be taken away. True freedom must be won and the buffalo soldiers understood that to belong to a country meant being willing to give that last ounce of life for it. The history of America is checkered; but it is also a history where the accomplishments of black Americans are truly vital to how this nation created itself. So perhaps we should embrace the truly great black Americans, the soldiers, the statesmen, the intellects, the poets, etc. and hold their accomplishments up as worthy of imitation and not the unworthy and often tragic lives of those whose death is more notable than their life.
 
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RDKirk

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Yes, but, i have seen Jesus depicted very differently depending on the location and culture.

The difference would only matter to those like that BLM leader.

All God is concerned about is what is in a persons heart and soul.

Shaun King is not a leader. He's just someone currently holding a microphone.

Black people actually ridicule Shaun ("Talcum X") King.
 
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RDKirk

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That is not a fair comparison. This is not "everyone" or just some chap who wears a BLM shirt or puts their flag on his or her avatar. This is someone who is cited on the BLM Wikipedia description as a leader in the movement.

There is a "True Scotsman Fallacy" that you are committing here and elsewhere. You are suggesting that you know better than more objective sources such as Wikepedia who is part of "the BLM movement". It seems rather convenient that when someone clearly identified with the movement says something you find embarrassing, you minimise their role.

Google "Talcum X" to see what black people have thought of Shaun King for the last several years. We don't even consider him black.

It may require perusing "black Twitter" to determine who or what is trending among blacks at any given moment, but I'm sure you're aware that Wikipedia is not necessarily authoritative. It can often give you a good place to start investigation, but it's rarely the place to stop.
 
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RDKirk

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Last I checked all that stuff was still up on the U.K. BLM site.
I went to the BLM website to quote their goal of abolishing the "nuclear family", but it seems they decided to take that part down, along with all the militaristic stuff they used to endorse.

It seems hard for folks to wrap their heads around the fact that BLM is a virtual entity. Anyone can put up a website and claim "BLM." Yes, there were four women who originated the hashtag and put up a website, but their control is no greater than that.

BLM physical events (such as marches) are essentially "flash mobs." Someone--anyone, anywhere--can set up a BLM event, put it on social media, and if it catches the sentiment of the local crowd it happens or it doesn't.

Anyone can grab a microphone or start a tweet with a BLM stance, and the black community (largely black Twitter, because BLM is a virtual entity) will respond according to the prevailing sentiment. They'll either support it, or ignore it, or tweet it out of its virtual existence.
 
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RDKirk

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What was George Floyd supposedly doing when the cops came? Trying to pass a fake $20 bill. What was Philando Castille doing? Selling loose cigarettes. Does anyone see a problem rooted in economics, or am I completely out to lunch?

I agree with the gist of your post, but I'd point out that George Floyd likely didn't realize the 20 he was passing was counterfeit (that's not how counterfeiters launder their work), and Philando Castille was not selling loose cigarettes. Philando Castille had done absolutely nothing remotely illegal before he was killed. You're thinking of Eric Garner.
 
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RDKirk

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I have no doubt that there are those within BLM that are trying to manipulate things for nefarious purposes. I also have no doubt that there are those in power who are using this virus - which I believe is real - as a cover to conduct truly evil social experiments. Soon we will all be commanded to take the vaccine. But, the vaccine is made with cells from an aborted fetus. So, how can we take the vaccine without making ourselves complicit in the evil that is abortion. I have said before - I will say again - evil is never content to merely be tolerated. It must make us complicit.

First, there isn't a vaccine yet. Second, no, it won't be made from the cells of aborted fetuses. Unless that's what you call a chicken egg.

I sincerely doubt Jesus looked like the inbred slack jaw yokel in that picture. The skin color isn't the problem- it's no darker than the skin color in many of our icons - it's the slack jawed slightly cross eyed expression on the face. I find this picture to be offensive and anti-semetic.

I do agree that the expression put on the face is hostile artistic intent.
 
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gzt

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The assembled crowd was mainly Tuskegee students and I am sure that they came that day to hear Powell offer liberal rhetoric on the awful oppression that these men had overcome.
Why would you assume that about them? This says more about you than anything else.
 
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Aldebaran

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Google "Talcum X" to see what black people have thought of Shaun King for the last several years. We don't even consider him black.

Does it matter what you consider his skin color to be? Or is that how we are to judge people?
 
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I agree. The history of America is checkered; but it is also a history where the accomplishments of black Americans are truly vital to how this nation created itself. So perhaps we should embrace the truly great black Americans, the soldiers, the statesmen, the intellects,


One of the most distinguished units in American history was the Massachusetts 54th Regiment. Formed at the beginning of the Civil War by a professor at Harvard who was an abolitionist. Notably it was an all black, all volunteer unit. The history revisionists like to keep pointing out that the Civil War was not just about slavery and that may be true- except for some it was.

I will keep this short, but the 54th saw combat almost immediately in the opening days of the war and a third of the men -including the colonel who was the only white person- were buried in a mass grave together. There is a bronze plaque mural type of commemorative statue on the Boston Common, just across the street from the Boston Garden, as indeed there should be.

Naturally it immediately became a target for the mob that defaced and damaged it because it looks like something whitey might have put or something. I am not going to try to find a rationale for it.

Shaking my head.. first to the left...then to the right......then left, right, left, right.

Shaw 54th Regiment Memorial defaced during protests
 
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dzheremi

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I agree with the gist of your post, but I'd point out that George Floyd likely didn't realize the 20 he was passing was counterfeit (that's not how counterfeiters launder their work), and Philando Castille was not selling loose cigarettes. Philando Castille had done absolutely nothing remotely illegal before he was killed. You're thinking of Eric Garner.

Good points concerning both, and I've gone back and edited my post accordingly. I need to be more careful with my wording and fact-checking. Thank you.
 
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rusmeister

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You can say “BLM is a virtual entity”, but it doesn’t matter. Ideas and associations still carry over into virtual reality, and very real money has been given to the concrete controllers of the virtual organization by virtual means. They developed a very specific logo; there is a member here who displays it, you can take a look and see that it is intended identification with the organization that came up with that logo. Whether or not you consider Shaun King representative of you really doesn't matter much, except insofar as some people point out egregious things he has said. The media are paid to give him a loud megaphone to speak with, so that we are sure to hear what he says, and that he identifies with BLM. Heck, I live in Russia, and I get his name shoved in my face. He’s not a lone operator. He serves as a pawn for a much larger system, and I get that you don't think of him as your pawn. That’s fine, as far as that goes. In the end, it’s not the vast majority of good and decent blacks (who don’t subscribe to BLM’s platform of sexual anarchy) who are swaying events; it is the noisy minority like King and the violent rioters tearing down statues who the media owners are handing the megaphone to, and broadcasting loud and clear. The voices of the decent majority of blacks, like the decent majority of whites and other groups, can hardly be heard, because the wealthy plutocrats pulling the strings don’t want us to hear them.
 
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tz620q

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Why would you assume that about them? This says more about you than anything else.
That is fair. It was an assumption on my part made by observing the smiling faces that were looking at him suddenly becoming rather uncomfortable when he launched into a somewhat forceful exhortation on their need to remember the ancestors that had paved the way for them and whose backs and sometimes whose graves formed that road. What did you think about the rest of my post? I truly just want people to come out from behind lines of protestors with bullhorns and lines of policemen and talk to each other and work toward fixing the problems we have. Constructive discourse with a willingness to compromise is one of the things the founding fathers said was necessary to keep a democracy from devolving into anarchy.
 
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buzuxi02

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The fact that we've disowned him means he's not our leader.
My biggest concern is the myth of a "European" Jesus. While most authentic iconography are painted by Europeans the style of the figures vary. There are various schools from different ages and so on when it comes to this sacred art form. Just today an Orthodox Church in Indonesia posted a picture of one of their icons. An Indonesian may see resemblance of his ethnic type in this image of Jesus and yet the icon is 100% Greek painted in a Byzantine style straight out of Greece:
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Phronema

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My biggest concern is the myth of a "European" Jesus. While most authentic iconography are painted by Europeans the style of the figures vary. There are various schools from different ages and so on when it comes to this sacred art form. Just today an Orthodox Church in Indonesia posted a picture of one of their icons. An Indonesian may see resemblance of his ethnic type in this image of Jesus and yet the icon is 100% Greek painted in a Byzantine style straight out of Greece:
View attachment 280301

Really the "European" Jesus you're referring to, and likely the one that BLM is referring to is the type we often see in the Catholic, and Protestant churches. I say that because in a lot of cases Christ is made to look a bit more European in those cases than in Orthodox iconography, and those cases are far more prevalent in the US. I have yet to see a European Jesus in Orthodox iconography. Maybe Russian icons, but I still don't see this as somehow racist.

That said I think anyone who's mentioned anything aside from a Middle Eastern Jesus is missing the mark entirely. Christ isn't, and will never be of African descent. He is, and will always be from an area of the world that looks different than someone who is African, or European, and more similar to someone who is Jewish, or Palestinian.

My last point though is that we were ALL created in God's image. (Genesis 1:26), and Christ died for us ALL on the life-giving cross to include people, and genders of ALL types. I really wish whoever has a problem with this would let it go because Christ isn't exclusively for any one "type/color" of people. This seems out of place when the issue of race comes up as I know many black people who pray fervently to Christ regardless of how he's portrayed here, or there. Hopefully then this isn't an attack on icons, or Christianity as a whole.
 
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rusmeister

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Really the "European" Jesus you're referring to, and likely the one that BLM is referring to is the type we often see in the Catholic, and Protestant churches. I say that because in a lot of cases Christ is made to look a bit more European in those cases than in Orthodox iconography, and those cases are far more prevalent in the US. I have yet to see a European Jesus in Orthodox iconography. Maybe Russian icons, but I still don't see this as somehow racist.

That said I think anyone who's mentioned anything aside from a Middle Eastern Jesus is missing the mark entirely. Christ isn't, and will never be of African descent. He is, and will always be from an area of the world that looks different than someone who is African, or European, and more similar to someone who is Jewish, or Palestinian.

My last point though is that we were ALL created in God's image. (Genesis 1:26), and Christ died for us ALL on the life-giving cross to include people, and genders of ALL types. I really wish whoever has a problem with this would let it go because Christ isn't exclusively for any one "type/color" of people. This seems out of place when the issue of race comes up as I know many black people who pray fervently to Christ regardless of how he's portrayed here, or there. Hopefully then this isn't an attack on icons, or Christianity as a whole.
Totally agree. I have zero problem with a black or Asian Jesus. It. Doesn’t. Matter.
 
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TheLostCoin

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I know that Orthodox value iconographic Tradition as legitimate, but do we even know what Jesus really looked like?

A lot of the earliest depictions we have of Christ have him completely beardless.

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And in the Bible, as well as in Hagiography, there's a clear theme of the small and the weak overcoming the strong and prideful, in order to manifest the Glory of God; David and Goliath; Moses and Pharaoh's Armies; King Saul trying to kill King David; Joseph and the Colored Coat, sold into slavery by his brothers; Daniel and the Lion's Den; Archangels waging war against Satan, a higher ranked angel, in the War in Heaven; etc.

Some Church Fathers, acutely aware of this theme, thought Christ was the ultimate culmination and thought he was short, ugly, even deformed, but was found worthy to become God Incarnate; that the Messiah, the Eternal King of Israel, would be the weakest of men.

Many Orthodox have tried to justify the beardless depiction of Jesus as "Adapting to Roman culture," because beardlessness in Pagan Rome was a symbol of divinity and holiness, which is why many Roman Emperors would be beardless. Well, what does that say about the necessity of "historical accurateness," considering that the Church adapted it's iconographic depictions to the pagan culture of the time in order to teach the laity about who Christ was - God incarnate
 
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TheLostCoin

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What devout Christian takes the Archbishop of Canterbury seriously anymore lol

Contemporary Anglicanism is just one big free for all, "pick and choose" Christianity.
 
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