Temporal Salvation?

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WordSword

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The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?
 

eleos1954

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The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?

Taking a few verses and pitting them against one another is not advisable ... the context is in His entire word ... eternal salvation doesn't fully manifest itself totally/absolutely until the Lord returns .... and a lot can happen during ones earthly life (temporary life) that can effect the final outcome of that final event ... one way or the other.

Our life on earth is temporary. After His return ... Life with Him will be eternal. Nothing oxymoron about that.

Eternal salvation is in Jesus for those who hear and believes.

Believing involves much much MUCH more than just acknowledging God/Jesus exists.

Acts 4:12 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
 
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hedrick

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Eternal salvation almost certainly refers to salvation in the final judgement. There is a kind of temporal salvation I think. If you look at how Jesus uses the term salvation, he uses it two ways: (1) for final salvation, (2) for people who change from God's enemies to his friends. (e.g. Luke 19:9).

The commentary I checked notes that the phrase "eternal salvation" occurs nowhere but Hebrews. (They're apparently not counting Mark 16:8, as it's not in the original text.) They believe it may be a reference to Is 45:17, where it does appear to be salvation that starts now and continues forever. But enough other places in the NT talk about the possibility of falling away that I wouldn't take this passage as the only answer, particularly since Hebrews itself sees the possibility of falling away (10:26).

It's possible, of course, to use the typical Calvinist approach, and say that people who fall away weren't saved in the first place. I guess it's possible that the author of Hebrews has that in mind, but I don't see any sign of it. The difficulty is that 10:29 says that these people who fall away were sanctified.

I'm willing to accept the Reformed perspective in a certain sense. When you look at a life from the end, or from God's perspective, you may see that something that looked like salvation was just a temporary episode. So in terms of God's plan, they were never elect, if you accept that concept. But for those of us who aren't God and are in the middle of history, we can't tell the difference. Not even the person can.

It's really difficult to use logic to describe the Christian life. The Kingdom has both a present and a future. We are genuinely in the Kingdom now, even though it won't be fully visible until the end. John uses eternal life the same way: we can enter it now, and it continues.

Still, it's pretty clear that some people don't continue. Did they enter eternal life and then leave it? Or were they never really in it? I don't think either answer is fully satisfying. The whole concept of eternal life doesn't allow for leaving. But saying people who are, as far as anyone including them can tell, living in the Kingdom really weren't in the Kingdom after all, seems kind of like a legal fiction. There may be no good answer to something that shouldn't happen in the first place (even though it does).

The one answer that I think is clearly wrong is that once someone does some specific thing (prays the sinners prayer or does something else to indicate that they're born again) they're permanently saved no matter what their life is like later.
 
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WordSword

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Taking a few verses and pitting them against one another is not advisable ... the context is in His entire word
Hi, and thanks for your reply and interesting comments! I would like to comment but not sure I understand you enough here to do so.
Same here:
eternal salvation doesn't fully manifest itself totally/absolutely until the Lord returns
I'll try to include the rest of your reply after seeing what you mean in these two comments.

God bless!
 
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WordSword

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Eternal salvation almost certainly refers to salvation in the final judgement.
Hi and and agree with some of your comments, though I believe that what we choose in this life is everything that determines all judgement which is passed in the next.

God's blessing to you!
 
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eleos1954

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Hi, and thanks for your reply and interesting comments! I would like to comment but not sure I understand you enough here to do so.
Same here:
I'll try to include the rest of your reply after seeing what you mean in these two comments.

God bless!

oxymoron -

An oxymoron is a figure of speech containing words that seem to contradict each other. It's often referred to as a contradiction in terms. ... A common oxymoron is the phrase "the same difference." This phrase qualifies as an oxymoron because the words "same" and "difference" have opposite meanings.

His word does not contradict itself ... if something "seems" to present itself that way ... then one needs to widen their scope of research/study on the topic/subject .... and that scope should be His entire word.

Context
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

sometimes the context is found within the chapter itself ... other times ... one may need to research and compare many many verses.

While we are alive on earth ... we still have choice ... and can fall away ... or walk away from the faith ... some do ... sadly.

Some put forth OSAS (once saved always saved) ... I do not find this to be the case .... study this out for your self .... if needed.

John 3:16

Berean Study Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This of course is a true statement ... however spend some time and study out what it means .. to believe. Believing does not just mean I believe God Exists ... no .... there is much much more involved in being a believer.

Here are a couple of resources that come in handy to run searches and help with studying.

www.biblehub.com

What Does the Bible Say About False Doctrines?

at the top you can change your query to any topic you may want to look at. Not all verses will necessary apply exactly .... but it will provide many verses that do.

God Bless.
 
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WordSword

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oxymoron - An oxymoron is a figure of speech containing words that seem to contradict each other.
I agree, that's why Scripture never actually contradicts itself, but many read it and often seem to think it does (because of the way it is often worded), but their merely misunderstanding it. This is also why essential doctrine (scripture relating to receiving salvation) is plain enough not to be confusing. It's the nonessential doctrines that many do not sufficiently understand.

God's blessings to your Family!
 
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fhansen

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The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?
Not really; we can be justified, or placed in a state of justice/righteousness as new creations, and then be expected to continue in that vein. Or, we can, alternatively, walk away from it, returning to a life lived in the flesh, and therefore losing that free gift of justice, that state of justification. This is why salvation is also said to be "worked out", because the human will is increasingly drawn and coaxed to participate, to persevere, to make our calling and election sure. In this way we can be tested and refined and actually increase in holiness, or we can also go the other direction.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Eternal salvation almost certainly refers to salvation in the final judgement. There is a kind of temporal salvation I think. If you look at how Jesus uses the term salvation, he uses it two ways: (1) for final salvation, (2) for people who change from God's enemies to his friends. (e.g. Luke 19:9).

The commentary I checked notes that the phrase "eternal salvation" occurs nowhere but Hebrews. (They're apparently not counting Mark 16:8, as it's not in the original text.) They believe it may be a reference to Is 45:17, where it does appear to be salvation that starts now and continues forever. But enough other places in the NT talk about the possibility of falling away that I wouldn't take this passage as the only answer, particularly since Hebrews itself sees the possibility of falling away (10:26).

It's possible, of course, to use the typical Calvinist approach, and say that people who fall away weren't saved in the first place. I guess it's possible that the author of Hebrews has that in mind, but I don't see any sign of it. The difficulty is that 10:29 says that these people who fall away were sanctified.

I'm willing to accept the Reformed perspective in a certain sense. When you look at a life from the end, or from God's perspective, you may see that something that looked like salvation was just a temporary episode. So in terms of God's plan, they were never elect, if you accept that concept. But for those of us who aren't God and are in the middle of history, we can't tell the difference. Not even the person can.

It's really difficult to use logic to describe the Christian life. The Kingdom has both a present and a future. We are genuinely in the Kingdom now, even though it won't be fully visible until the end. John uses eternal life the same way: we can enter it now, and it continues.

Still, it's pretty clear that some people don't continue. Did they enter eternal life and then leave it? Or were they never really in it? I don't think either answer is fully satisfying. The whole concept of eternal life doesn't allow for leaving. But saying people who are, as far as anyone including them can tell, living in the Kingdom really weren't in the Kingdom after all, seems kind of like a legal fiction. There may be no good answer to something that shouldn't happen in the first place (even though it does).

The one answer that I think is clearly wrong is that once someone does some specific thing (prays the sinners prayer or does something else to indicate that they're born again) they're permanently saved no matter what their life is like later.
Given all that you posted, what about the very straightforward statement by Jesus in John 10:28? He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

We know eternal life is described as a gift in Rom 6:23. And we know from John 5:24 and 6:47 that believers possess (in the present tense) eternal life, so we know WHEN Jesus gives the gift; when a person believes.

So, John 10:28 is a promise from the MOMENT one believes; they shall never perish.

That cannot mean that eternal life is anything but permanent.
 
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WordSword

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Not really; we can be justified, or placed in a state of justice/righteousness as new creations, and then be expected to continue in that vein. Or, we can, alternatively, walk away from it, returning to a life lived in the flesh, and therefore losing that free gift of justice, that state of justification.
My understanding differs a bit, in that there are two groups of people professing Christianity. Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness; and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly. Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into.
 
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hedrick

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Given all that you posted, what about the very straightforward statement by Jesus in John 10:28? He said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

We know eternal life is described as a gift in Rom 6:23. And we know from John 5:24 and 6:47 that believers possess (in the present tense) eternal life, so we know WHEN Jesus gives the gift; when a person believes.

So, John 10:28 is a promise from the MOMENT one believes; they shall never perish.

That cannot mean that eternal life is anything but permanent.
I think this is an example of using statements to answer questions the author never envisioned. Just because you're on a cross-country train, there's no reason you can't get off in Chicago.

Jesus is reassuring the sheep that no one else can take them from Jesus' hand. I don't see any reason to think that this is about whether someone can fall away, when the NT is full of warnings about that.
 
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fhansen

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My understanding differs a bit, in that there are two groups of people professing Christianity. Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness; and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly. Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into.
For me the question comes down to our not being abbe to predict with 100% certainty who will persevere to the end and who will not, whose names are definitively written in the Book of Life and whose are not. That is Gods's province, alone. And wile He is uncompromisingly trustworthy and true, we're still the wildcard in it all. And I believe that Scripture, taken in its fullest context, supports this position well.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I think this is an example of using statements to answer questions the author never envisioned. Just because you're on a cross-country train, there's no reason you can't get off in Chicago.
Do you think that is what Jesus had in mind when He said what He did in John 10:28?

Jesus is reassuring the sheep that no one else can take them from Jesus' hand.
Why did you add the word "else" to what Jesus said? He didn't say "no one else can snatch them from My or My Father's hand."

Are you suggesting that the believer themself can do that?

I don't see any reason to think that this is about whether someone can fall away, when the NT is full of warnings about that.
I don't think John 10:28 is about that either. Regardless, when Jesus says recipients of eternal life shall never perish, that's a very straightforward claim.

It can be stated this way:

If one is given the gift of eternal life, that person shall never perish.

If Jesus' words don't mean this, please explain clearly why they don't.

Thanks.
 
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FreeGrace2

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For me the question comes down to our not being abbe to predict with 100% certainty who will persevere to the end and who will not, whose names are definitively written in the Book of Life and whose are not.
Why would this even be a question? Jesus was very clear about recipients of eternal life. He said "they shall never perish". So there is no issue about who 'perseveres to the end" or whose names are definitely written in the Book of Life.

It should be obvious that those given eternal life HAVE their names written into the Book of Life. And "persevering to the end" is, in context, about the 7 year Tribulation and has no relevance to general life other than the Tribulation. And the word "saved" there refers to physical deliverance, not eternal deliverance.

That is Gods's province, alone. And wile He is uncompromisingly trustworthy and true, we're still the wildcard in it all.
This suggests that you believe that God is not omniscience, if any human being could be a "wildcard" in it all. That is preposterous.
 
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fhansen

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Why would this even be a question? Jesus was very clear about recipients of eternal life. He said "they shall never perish". So there is no issue about who 'perseveres to the end" or whose names are definitely written in the Book of Life.
Of course there's a question. Because we can't know who they are in any absolute sense. But whoever they are, will not perish. Meanwhile scripture continuously warns, admonishes, and encourages believers, to remain in Christ, live by the Spirit, refrain from sin, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, strive, persevere, be holy, be perfect, be vigilant, invest ones talents, etc., etc, generally with loss of salvation at stake.
It should be obvious that those given eternal life HAVE their names written into the Book of Life. And "persevering to the end" is, in context, about the 7 year Tribulation and has no relevance to general life other than the Tribulation. And the word "saved" there refers to physical deliverance, not eternal deliverance.
This is redundant. Yes, the elect will be saved.
This suggests that you believe that God is not omniscience, if any human being could be a "wildcard" in it all. That is preposterous.
Again, God knows; we don't.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Of course there's a question. Because we can't know who they are in any absolute sense.
That's not relevant. God DOES know. That's the point. It's not ours to determine. God alone determines. And His determination is based on His rules, not yours, mine, or anyone else's.

But whoever they are, will not perish.
If you really don't know who "they" are, I'll tell you. Jesus said, "My sheep". They are believers; no one else. You're welcome.

Meanwhile scripture continuously warns, admonishes, and encourages believers, to remain in Christ, live by the Spirit, refrain from sin, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, strive, persevere, be holy, be perfect, be vigilant, invest ones talents, etc., etc, generally with loss of salvation at stake.
hold on there. You can't just throw out phrases like "generally with loss of salvation at stake" without clear evidence. So, where is your evidence? I'm talking about ANY verse that very plainly teaches that salvation can be lost.
 
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WordSword

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For me the question comes down to our not being abbe to predict with 100% certainty who will persevere to the end and who will not, whose names are definitively written in the Book of Life and whose are not. That is Gods's province, alone. And wile He is uncompromisingly trustworthy and true, we're still the wildcard in it all. And I believe that Scripture, taken in its fullest context, supports this position well.
I'm pretty close to agreement with this reply, except I believe God wants believers to know that they are saved, otherwise there is no encouragement in wondering. We can't have this certainty about others (would require knowing them as God knows them), but each can be certain concerning themselves (Rom 8:16); and Christ did say He never losses anyone He saves.

John 18:9 "of them which thou gavest Me have I lost none"; which though it has a peculiar respect to the apostles, is true of all the elect of God; who are given to Christ, and shall none of them be lost, neither their souls nor bodies; for Christ's charge of them reaches to both: both were given to Him, both are redeemed by Him, and both shall be saved in Him with an everlasting salvation" (Gill).
 
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fhansen

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I'm pretty close to agreement with this reply, except I believe God wants believers to know that they are saved, otherwise there is no encouragement in wondering. We can't have this certainty about others (would require knowing them as God knows them), but each can be certain concerning themselves (Rom 8:16); and Christ did say He never losses anyone He saves.

John 18:9 "of them which thou gavest Me have I lost none"; which though it has a peculiar respect to the apostles, is true of all the elect of God; who are given to Christ, and shall none of them be lost, neither their souls nor bodies; for Christ's charge of them reaches to both: both were given to Him, both are redeemed by Him, and both shall be saved in Him with an everlasting salvation" (Gill).
It's just that it's not an either/or proposition. We can have a very strong level of assurance, based on His trustworthy promises and our responses to them, how well we remain faithful evidenced by our fruits, the most important of which is love. But the words of Scripture can be hyperbolic encouragement balanced by warnings and admonitions. We cannot assume that everyone who's heard John 18:9, whether when those words were first read or down through the centuries thereafter, and applied them to themselves, were/are necessarily saved. We're supposed to retain a certain level of wondering and anticipation and doubt about ourselves that causes us to strive, to persevere, to be vigilant, as per even Paul in Phil 3:
"I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus."

Either way any gospel that relieves man of the obligation to be righteous himself is a false gospel. God did not creature sinners. He forgives our sin; He removes it, and empowers us to sin no more to the extent that we remain in Him and He in us, which means to be under grace, living by the Spirit. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). That's all man has needed to learn ever since Eden. And when the time was ripe, when humanity had become sufficiently prepared by God, Jesus made this union, which constitutes the right and just order of things for man, possible.
 
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WordSword

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We can have a very strong level of assurance, based on His trustworthy promises and our responses to them, how well we remain faithful evidenced by our fruits, the most important of which is love.
Like your comment here; and surly there is no greater "assurance" than the Holy Spirit (Ro 8:16).
 
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fhansen

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That's not relevant. God DOES know. That's the point. It's not ours to determine. God alone determines. And His determination is based on His rules, not yours, mine, or anyone else's.
No argument whatsoever; He knows, and He's the Boss.

If you really don't know who "they" are, I'll tell you. Jesus said, "My sheep". They are believers; no one else. You're welcome.
Sheep can be found; sheep can go astray again. You're welcome. Now, yes, His sheep ultimately end up in His fold either way. And He alone knows who they are.

hold on there. You can't just throw out phrases like "generally with loss of salvation at stake" without clear evidence. So, where is your evidence? I'm talking about ANY verse that very plainly teaches that salvation can be lost.
You're familiar with the bible and should know not only the passages but that sentiment in general, expressed throughout the bible, that man is obligated and expected to do his part, with more demanded from those given more. But, anyway:

Well, first of all even Paul tells us in Phil 3 that he’s striving to attain to the resurrection. And John reveals that we can be branches grafted in and later cut back off, Heb 6 that we can taste of the heavenly fruit then reject it for life turned back to the flesh. Or everywhere we see that faith, alone, doesn’t make the grade:

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 11:6

“To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

“Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:19-20

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” the man asked.Jesus answered, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
Matt 19:17-19

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Mt 5:48

We’re forgiven washed, cleansed: justified, made new creations. From there we’re to keep our robes clean, or wash them even cleaner. We’re to live and to love as new creations, realizing that we’ll slip at times but always rising again to press onwards and upwards overall. Then the Just Judge will render His determination. We can’t know anything with perfect certainty beyond that. I’ve come to appreciate a teaching I’m familiar with, quoting a 16th century believer:

“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

That statement sums up the workings of the new Covenant in a nutshell, made possible only by grace as we then persevere in working out our salvation with He who works in us. To go beyond that is to put the cart ahead of the horse in terms of what we can know.

And that, love, is the primary definition of man’s righteousness which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are. This is what faith is meant to lead to: union with God and the love that naturally blossoms and flows from that contact.
 
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