Poll on salvation. Eternal security (osas) vs. works and grace are both required.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 2, 2020

Phil W said:
Especially if you ignore John 10:27, where it says "His sheep follow Him".
Those sheep NOT following Him are lost.

The lost sheep in Joh 10 are NOT His sheep. Of course they are unsaved.

Once they become His sheep, through entering through the gate (v.9), they are saved and His sheep forever. And shall never perish.

TibiasDad · Jul 2, 2020

Gregorikos said:
There are a MULTITUDE of verses that state a Christian can apostatize, such as John 15:6, Romans 11:22, Colossians 1:22-23, 1 Timothy 1:19-20, 2 Timothy 2:12, Hebrews 3:14-15, 2 Peter 2:1, 20-21.
But the clearest of all is Hebrews 6:4-6.

Of this passage the New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge says: The following five-fold description of the true believer is scarcely if ever equaled elsewhere in the pages of Scripture as to detail or extent, and most certainly can apply only to persons who were once genuinely saved. If such a description were to occur in any other context but this, there would be no question as to its application to true believers. This text furnishes a near-perfect measure of one’s theological system: if you must work strenuously to avoid the clear implication of the text in an effort to prove these were not true believers, your system stands convicted as incorrect at this point, and the effort to explain this passage away is the hallmark of those who are guilty of mishandling the word of God in order to maintain their preconceived doctrinal system (NTSK) Hebrews 6:4

And yes, I also believe John 10:28. No one can snatch me out of the Lord's hand. But I can leave him if I choose to.

I would add Rom 8:12-13: Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

And I see you missed the Heb 10:19-ff passage in you lost as well!

Doug

Phil W · Jul 2, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"Actually, 1 John 1:8 says that anyone who claims to be sinless is self deceived and the truth is not in them.
And John did mean anyone who makes that claim."
I'm sorry that you don't understand that "anyone" is a synonymous for "anybody.
Everyone and everybody knows that. I was explaining what John meant when he said "If WE....".

Alright, I can stipulate to that rewording of what is actually written, but that way also changes the intention of John's writing.
So, which "we" is walking in the darkness, and which "we" is walking in the light?
The "we" walking in darkness cannot say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin, or that they never have committed a sin..
The "we" that is walking in the light has had ALL their sins washed away by the blood of Christ, can say they have fellowship with God, and can say they have no sin.

Yet, "those walking in the light" are NOT God. So your statement is factually wrong.

I didn't say they "were" God, I quoted the scripture saying they walked "in" God..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (v5)
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (v7)

That is your opinion. John was writing to believers. And believers can either be IN fellowship, or OUT OF fellowship, but you've already demonstrated that you don't understand what they means.

I don't believe that those who fear God would ever leave the fellowship we enjoy in Him.

And John was clear: those who say they are without sin are self deceived and have no truth in them.

If they are walking in darkness, sin, they cannot say they have no sin.
On the other hand, what of those who walk in the light-God?
As there is no sin in God, in the light, they cannot have sin in themselves either...or they forfeit fellowship with God.

No verse says that.

Is there sin in God?
Is there sin in the light?
Remember, "God is light".
There can be no sin in the light or those who are in the light.

Only beginning when the believer leaves earth and enters eternity.

My eternal life started when I was killed with Christ. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

John clearly communicated that if he OR any other believer claimed to be without sin, he or they would be self deceived and have no truth in them.

If true, then there is sin in God...God is light, and if there is sinners or sin in the light there must also be sin in God.

Your brand of believer doesn't believe in rebirth or our crucifixion with Christ prior to our being raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
They continue to walk in oldness of life.

Phil W · Jul 2, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
The lost sheep in Joh 10 are NOT His sheep. Of course they are unsaved.

Correct.
But we can also call the "lost" sheep "non-followers" of the Good Shepherd.

Once they become His sheep, through entering through the gate (v.9), they are saved and His sheep forever. And shall never perish.

And shall never quit following Him.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 3, 2020

Phil W said:
Alright, I can stipulate to that rewording of what is actually written, but that way also changes the intention of John's writing.

You can "stipulate" whatever you desire, but that doesn't change FACTS.

So, which "we" is walking in the darkness, and which "we" is walking in the light? The "we" walking in darkness cannot say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin, or that they never have committed a sin..

Your so-called "stipulation" is phony.

When John said "If we say..." he means anyone who says... But you can't accept that because it refutes your own claims.

The "we" that is walking in the light has had ALL their sins washed away by the blood of Christ, can say they have fellowship with God, and can say they have no sin.

I've proven to you from the Bible that believers still sin. Even Paul, the greatest evangelist ever.

I didn't say they "were" God

Just look at what you actually wrote.

I quoted the scripture saying they walked "in" God..."This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (v5)

No, you never wrote "walked in God". So you're just changing your tune in light of the fact that you've been exposed.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (v7)

This is about fellowship.

And the "we" in v.7 is the same "we" in v.8. John is simply showing different scenarios to the SAME PEOPLE.

I don't believe that those who fear God would ever leave the fellowship we enjoy in Him.

Your "beliefs" don't line up with Scripture.

If they are walking in darkness, sin, they cannot say they have no sin.
On the other hand, what of those who walk in the light-God?
As there is no sin in God, in the light, they cannot have sin in themselves either...or they forfeit fellowship with God.

Since you were never able to explain fellowhsip or describe how a believer achieves fellowship, you have no grounds to say anything about it.

Is there sin in God?

No.

Is there sin in the light?

No.

Remember, "God is light".

Yes.

There can be no sin in the light or those who are in the light.

When in fellowship, there is no sin. But you have falsely claimed there is no sin in a true believer. And I have proven that false. From Scripture.

My eternal life started when I was killed with Christ. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)

Uh, no, it did not. Are you now over 2,000 years old? Please don't be absurd.

Eternal life begins WHEN one believes in Christ.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

You have shown how little of the Bible you know.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 3, 2020

Once they become His sheep, through entering through the gate (v.9), they are saved and His sheep forever. And shall never perish.

Phil W said:
And shall never quit following Him.

Except you have NO Scripture that makes this claim.

Even Jesus doesn't believe what you think.

Luke 8:12,13
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

v.12 teaches that one is saved when they believe, but stated in the opposite. "not believe and not be saved".

v.13 teaches that believers can believe "for a while" and then "fall away".

JLB777 · Jul 3, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
That's right. Just keep your head low and keep charging. But you'll not see the wall coming right at you!!

Perfect sinless Jesus IS separate from imperfect sinners. Of course He is. There is no question about it.

Romans 3 PROVES that everyone else is a sinner.

But you keep ignoring my question. Do you claim to be without sin?

A sinner is someone who is disconnected, separated from Christ.

A wicked person.

Because sinners are defined as wicked.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"

Sinner — Strongs G268 - hamartōlos

devoted to sin, a sinner
1. not free from sin
2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
  1. all wicked men
  2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
    1. tax collectors, heathen

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50

JLB

JLB777 · Jul 3, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
The lost sheep in Joh 10 are NOT His sheep. Of course they are unsaved.

Once they become His sheep, through entering through the gate (v.9), they are saved and His sheep forever. And shall never perish.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

OSAS is a false.

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Jul 3, 2020

JLB777 said:
A sinner is someone who is disconnected, separated from Christ.

No need to keep repeating yourself. Paul was crystal clear that every human being is a sinner. Romans 3-
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But it appears that you don't agree with Scripture. Why would anyone who claims to be a Christian not agree with Scripture?

A wicked person.
Because sinners are defined as wicked.

You say a lot of things that the Bible does not say.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"

That's right. Jesus is God, sinless. That sure qualifies as being separate from sinners.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 3, 2020

I said:
"The lost sheep in Joh 10 are NOT His sheep. Of course they are unsaved.

Once they become His sheep, through entering through the gate (v.9), they are saved and His sheep forever. And shall never perish."

JLB777 said:
“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Why bring in a different context to the discussion of the sheep in John 10?

OSAS is a false.

Gee. I guess you'd better let Jesus know that. He said those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Why do you think you know more than Jesus?

TibiasDad · Jul 3, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
You can "stipulate" whatever you desire, but that doesn't change FACTS.

Your so-called "stipulation" is phony.

When John said "If we say..." he means anyone who says... But you can't accept that because it refutes your own claims.

I've proven to you from the Bible that believers still sin. Even Paul, the greatest evangelist ever.

Just look at what you actually wrote.

No, you never wrote "walked in God". So you're just changing your tune in light of the fact that you've been exposed.

This is about fellowship.

And the "we" in v.7 is the same "we" in v.8. John is simply showing different scenarios to the SAME PEOPLE.

Your "beliefs" don't line up with Scripture.

Since you were never able to explain fellowhsip or describe how a believer achieves fellowship, you have no grounds to say anything about it.

No.

No.

Yes.

When in fellowship, there is no sin. But you have falsely claimed there is no sin in a true believer. And I have proven that false. From Scripture.

Uh, no, it did not. Are you now over 2,000 years old? Please don't be absurd.

Eternal life begins WHEN one believes in Christ.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

You have shown how little of the Bible you know.

Eternal life begins WHEN one believes in Christ.

Possession of Eternal Life begins when one believes.
Possession of Eternal Life continues as one continues to believe.
Eternal Life begins at the start of Eternity, that being either after death or at the return of Christ.
Possession of Eternal Life is contingent on belief, and is therefore impeccable during this life. To preclude the loss of Eternal Life you must prove the impossibility of the cessation of belief, which I believe you've already stipulated in another post where you referenced the parable of the seeds, where the seed in the shallow soil takes root for a short while, but withers away in the heat of the sun.

Jesus and the Apostles after him had repeated admonitions to "remain" in the vine and do not forsake our faith in Christ. (And the scriptures for these have been repeatedly stated by other posters, so I won't waste bandwidth by unnecessary redundancy.)

Doug

FreeGrace2 · Jul 3, 2020

TibiasDad said:
Possession of Eternal Life begins when one believes.

Correct.

Possession of Eternal Life continues as one continues to believe.

Incorrect. Jesus very clearly stated that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

If you can find any wording that indicates a condition based on behavior for "never perishing" in John 10:27 or 28, please share.

Eternal Life begins at the start of Eternity, that being either after death or at the return of Christ.

Correct.

Possession of Eternal Life is contingent on belief, and is therefore impeccable during this life.

Incorrect. Please quote the single clearest verse that teaches this.

To preclude the loss of Eternal Life you must prove the impossibility of the cessation of belief, which I believe you've already stipulated in another post where you referenced the parable of the seeds, where the seed in the shallow soil takes root for a short while, but withers away in the heat of the sun.

On the contrary, to prove that loss of belief results in loss of salvation, you must quote any verse that says so. And I mean clearly.

Jesus and the Apostles after him had repeated admonitions to "remain" in the vine and do not forsake our faith in Christ.

Correct. However, did Jesus or any other Apostle include the condition of salvation on "remaining/abiding" in Him? No.

The point of abiding in Him in John 15 is for bearing fruit, not for staying saved.

(And the scriptures for these have been repeatedly stated by other posters, so I won't waste bandwidth by unnecessary redundancy.)
Doug

Yes, there are many verses about remaining/abiding in Christ, or continuing in the faith.

Yet, NONE of the many verses link these things with staying saved.

Phil W · Jul 3, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
You can "stipulate" whatever you desire, but that doesn't change FACTS.

Do you mean the fact that John is describing two different kinds of walk?

When John said "If we say..." he means anyone who says... But you can't accept that because it refutes your own claims.

I do accept it, but his words are from two perspectives...one from in darkness and one from in the light.

And the "we" in v.7 is the same "we" in v.8. John is simply showing different scenarios to the SAME PEOPLE.

Were that true, verses 7 and 9 would be lies.
We wouldn't ever have "ALL" our sins washed away by the blood of Christ, v7, nor have ALL our unrighteousness cleansed, v9.
The different "scenarios" are the two perspectives I mentioned in my last entry.
One pertaining to those who walk in darkness and the other to those who walk in the light.

When in fellowship, there is no sin.

Agreed.

But you have falsely claimed there is no sin in a true believer. And I have proven that false. From Scripture.

From the reverse perspective of what you stated, we can also see that there is no sin in those in fellowship.
They are the ones walking in the light, and CAN say they have no sin.
If they are in sin, they cannot say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.

True believers, those walking in the light, can say they have no sin.
Sinners are false believers, and they walk in darkness, and they cannot say they have fellowship with God.
Nor can they say they have no sin.

Phil W · Jul 3, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
Once they become His sheep, through entering through the gate (v.9), they are saved and His sheep forever. And shall never perish.
Except you have NO Scripture that makes this claim.
Even Jesus doesn't believe what you think.
Luke 8:12,13
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
v.12 teaches that one is saved when they believe, but stated in the opposite. "not believe and not be saved".
v.13 teaches that believers can believe "for a while" and then "fall away".

It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)
That is a true believer.
All others are posers.
Children of the devil. (1 John 3:10)[/QUOTE]

JLB777 · Jul 4, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
No need to keep repeating yourself. Paul was crystal clear that every human being is a sinner. Romans 3-
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But it appears that you don't agree with Scripture. Why would anyone who claims to be a Christian not agree with Scripture?

All have sinned and need a Savior.

That Savior is Jesus Christ.

Those who are justified, and cleansed and declared to be righteous.

Unlike sinners who are separate from Christ, and are sinners.

It’s sad that you don’t know even the most elementary things about Christ and what He taught.

Sinner is a reference to an unbeliever, a wicked person, a person who practices sin.

A saint refers to a holy person, who is righteous, being justified in which they practice righteousness.

The KJV translates Strong's G40 in the following manner: holy (161x), saints (61x), Holy One (4x), miscellaneous (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

most holy thing, a saint

to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place -- both theirs and ours: 1 Corinthians 1:2

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"

Sinner — Strongs G268 - hamartōlos

devoted to sin, a sinner
1. not free from sin
2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
  1. all wicked men
  2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
    1. tax collectors, heathen

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50

JLB

JLB777 · Jul 4, 2020

FreeGrace2 said:
I said:
"The lost sheep in Joh 10 are NOT His sheep. Of course they are unsaved.

Once they become His sheep, through entering through the gate (v.9), they are saved and His sheep forever. And shall never perish."

Why bring in a different context to the discussion of the sheep in John 10?

Gee. I guess you'd better let Jesus know that. He said those He gives eternal life shall NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Why do you think you know more than Jesus?

Those sheep who do not continue to follow the Lord but wander away and become lost are called sinners, in need of repentance.

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

If Jesus is our Lord, then we must follow Him, and obey His voice or we may end up becoming lost.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Jul 4, 2020

Phil W said:
Do you mean the fact that John is describing two different kinds of walk?

Ah, now you're catching on! Yes, different kinds of walk, but the SAME PEOPLE.

Believers are either IN fellowship with the Lord, or they are OUT OF fellowship with the Lord.

I do accept it, but his words are from two perspectives...one from in darkness and one from in the light.

I agree. But what we disagree on is that John was speaking to believers. Challenging them to walk in the light, and not in darkness.

I said:
"And the "we" in v.7 is the same "we" in v.8. John is simply showing different scenarios to the SAME PEOPLE."

Were that true, verses 7 and 9 would be lies.

Wrong. This is about one's walk, remember? Just read your first quote above. It's not about different people, but about different walks.

v.8 is as clear as can be stated. ANY believer who claims to be without sin is self deceived and has no truth in them. That is exactly what John said and meant.

We wouldn't ever have "ALL" our sins washed away by the blood of Christ, v7, nor have ALL our unrighteousness cleansed, v9.

No. It's just that you don't understand what "washed away" means. It means the debt of sin has been taken care of. Jesus paid the debt. That's the ONLY REASON God offers the free gift of eternal life to humans. Their debt has been paid.

The different "scenarios" are the two perspectives I mentioned in my last entry.

Exactly! Different scenarios of one's walk. Not different scenarios of different people.

One pertaining to those who walk in darkness and the other to those who walk in the light.

Again, SAME PEOPLE but different perspectives, different walks.

From the reverse perspective of what you stated, we can also see that there is no sin in those in fellowship.
They are the ones walking in the light, and CAN say they have no sin.

That is a temporary condition only. Paul made that clear from his own current testimony in Romans 7, which you do not understand.

If they are in sin, they cannot say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.

That is true of believers, yes. That is why John wrote, through the Holy Spirit, v.9 and how to restore fellowship when one sins. But you deny that a Christian can sin.

True believers, those walking in the light, can say they have no sin.

Well, there you go again. v.8 and 9 are for true believers.

Sinners are false believers, and they walk in darkness, and they cannot say they have fellowship with God.

Nonsense. Sinners are all human beings. But you'd have to read Romans 3 to know that.

Nor can they say they have no sin.

This reveals that you do not understand or accept 1 John 2:1 either.

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

If you don't understand what the red words mean, I can't help you any further.

John wants believers to not sin, but he acknowledges that believers DO sin.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 4, 2020

Phil W said:
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)
That is a true believer.
All others are posers.

Wrong. v.9 is about the FACT that the believers NEW NATURE cannot sin. But you deny the FACT that believers still have their sinful flesh (nature).

Col 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

The red words refer to the human nature, or the sin nature.

The blue words are what come from the human nature.

Why would Paul write this to believers in Colosse if they didn't need to "put to death" the things that belong to their eathly nature?? According to your theory, true believers don't have an earthly nature any more, and you quote 2 Cor 5:17 out of context.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 4, 2020

JLB777 said:
All have sinned and need a Savior.

That makes everyone a sinner. Everyone, as I have pointed out.

That Savior is Jesus Christ.

Correct.

Those who are justified, and cleansed and declared to be righteous.

And still have their "earthly nature", from which comes sin.

Col 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Unlike sinners who are separate from Christ, and are sinners.

Everyone is a sinner. Romans 3 says so. Multiple times.

It’s sad that you don’t know even the most elementary things about Christ and what He taught.

Thanks for your unenlightened opinion.

Sinner is a reference to an unbeliever, a wicked person, a person who practices sin.

So you don't believe Col 3:5 then?? Why?

A saint refers to a holy person, who is righteous, being justified in which they practice righteousness.

I'm interested in why you won't answer my question about whether you claim to be sinless now.

The KJV translates Strong's G40 in the following manner: holy (161x), saints (61x), Holy One (4x), miscellaneous (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

most holy thing, a saint

to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place -- both theirs and ours: 1 Corinthians 1:2
For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26"

Sinner — Strongs G268 - hamartōlos

devoted to sin, a sinner

not free from sin

pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked

all wicked men

specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes

tax collectors, heathen

So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:49-50

You can quote all the verses you want, but so far, nothing you've quoted supports your unbiblical views.

Col 3:5 totally refutes your so-called definitions.

Every human being is a sinner, with an earthly nature (sin nature) until physical death. At which time, believers leave their earthly nature behind in their physical bodies.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 4, 2020

JLB777 said:
Those sheep who do not continue to follow the Lord but wander away and become lost are called sinners, in need of repentance.

Please show me the verses in John 10 that teach what you think. But I know you can't because ch 10 doesn't teach that.

What you are referring to is a parable about a shepherd that loses a sheep from his flock. And you wrongly assume that refers to loss of salvation and the regaining of it again.

Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

This passage is about restoration of fellowship between the Shepherd and His sheep (believers).

That is proven by the parable of the prodigal. The father described his son as both dead and lost, yet he was neither physically dead nor lost. The son knew exactly what he was and how to get back to the father. What actually had died and become lost was fellowship between father and son.

This parable describes the condition of the believer who is out of fellowship, and I know that you have repeatedly rejected the concept of being either IN or OUT OF fellowship, so I don't expect you to accept any of this.

there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

When believers sin, they need to confess their sins (1 John 1:9) and return back to the Lord. And the prodigal did both of these things: he confessed his sin and returned to his father. A perfect example of restoring fellowship between the Lord and the believer.

If Jesus is our Lord, then we must follow Him, and obey His voice or we may end up becoming lost.

Yes, lost like the prodigal, but knowing how to restore fellowship.

Poll on salvation. Eternal security (osas) vs. works and grace are both required.

Which view of salvation is biblically correct.

OSAS you can never loose your salvation, no matter what you are eternally secure.

We are saved by grace but must walk righteously or are in jeopardy of loosing our salvation.

I have a different view on salvation. (please explain)

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Newbie

Newbie

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Similar threads