Blameless in the Law

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

  • Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.

  • No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.


Results are only viewable after voting.

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
And you clearly can't find a place where he said that all Gentiles who believed in him and had received eternal life, HAD to keep all the laws in Leviticus.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Jesus said that the 10 commandments could be summed up in 2

No he didn't. Here is what he said:

(CLV) Mt 22:40
On these two precepts is hanging the whole law and the prophets."

love your God and love your neighbour.
Loving God

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,910
NW England
✟1,041,208.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Yes, you keep saying that - and I keep saying, "that does not say that Gentiles who follow Jesus and have eternal life need to keep the law."
The law still stands, but Jesus has fulfilled it. As for Gentiles who were never under it; we have Jesus. Jesus is all we, or anyone else needs; he is THE Word of God; the Alpha and the Omega, the final Word.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,910
NW England
✟1,041,208.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No he didn't. Here is what he said:

(CLV) Mt 22:40
On these two precepts is hanging the whole law and the prophets."

Exactly. Read the verses before.
An expert of the law asked Jesus, "which is the greatest commandment?"
Jesus replied "love God with all your heart, soul and mind. The second is like it; love your neighbour as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these 2 commandments".

If there were 2 hooks on a wall, one labelled love God, and the other labelled love your neighbour; all the commands could be hung on one hook, or the other.
TWO commandments - all the others are covered by one, or the other. Or possibly both, as we show our love for God by loving our neighbour and our enemy.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

How do you define a "precept"? All the laws in Leviticus? All the words that God spoke to other people about tearing down their idols, or building the tabernacle? Or the 10 commandments?
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,115
618
65
Michigan
✟318,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And you clearly can't find a place where he said that all Gentiles who believed in him and had received eternal life, HAD to keep all the laws in Leviticus.

There is no Jew or Gentile in the Christ of the Bible. Another Jesus maybe, but not the Jesus of the Bible. The Return of the Christ, and subsequent resurrection has not yet come. So Jews or Gentiles who "Repented, turned to God, and brought forth Work's worthy of repentance" as Paul taught, have not yet received the gift.

According to Paul, Leviticus and Deuteronomy and the entire Law and Prophets were written for our admonition. "for our sake's no doubt". Your unbelief of his words do not make them untrue.

You may have been convinced by other religious voices that the Law and Prophets was only written for Jews, but if a man considers the Word of God which became Flesh, this is easily exposed as an insidious deception.

Is. 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Why?? Because there is no Jew or Gentile in the Christ of the Bible.

Rom. 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

1 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Why?? Because there is no Jew or Gentile in the Christ of the Bible.

This is why I replied to your post in the first place. You are furthering a religion in which God's Word is subject to the DNA a man was born with. This is an insidious falsehood. So I am hoping you might reconsider your views and submit to the Word of God in these matters.

Ex. 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

There is no Jew or Gentile in the Christ of the Bible. There is only One "Way of the Lord" for all men. One faith, One Spirit, One Body. God gave HIS Way to the Jews, who corrupted it. But all men are to be "grafted" into this ONE Way of the Lord.

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, (Jews) and thou, being a wild olive tree, (Gentile) wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

If you are not Grafted in to God's Holy Tree, and are not partaking of the Root "With them", then you are not part of the Tree of Life which belongs to God, not Jews.

Rom. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith (Belief). Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And what about the Jews who also didn't believe Leviticus was written for them?

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Why?? Because there is no Jew or Gentile with the Christ of the Bible.

It is my sincere hope that you might humble yourself to the Christ of the Bible, and to this Biblical Truth.


So - DO you believe that "God's word" includes ALL the promises written in Leviticus, and Exodus and Deuteronomy? And do you keep the?

Yes, I believe in the Word of God which became Flesh. All of His Word's. The Mainstream preachers of Jesus time believed like many religious men today. That there are some Word's of God which must be "omitted" from their religion, replaced by doctrines and traditions of man. But the Scriptures do not teach this.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Will you also preach to others that "ALL" Scripture doesn't include Leviticus, as you preach to others that "Every Word" of God, Jesus said to Live By, doesn't include Leviticus?

What if it is the Scriptures which are true, and it is you that are deceived? Surely a man must consider this possibility.

17 That the man of God ( Jew or gentile) may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And why would a "man of God" strive to be perfect? Because the Jesus of the Bible commanded it.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Notice again that the Jesus of the Bible doesn't play the "Gentile Card" here, and neither does Paul. You do. But Jesus does not. Why is this???? Because there is NO Jew or Gentile in the Christ of the Bible.

Am I perfect? No. I have not yet attained to that perfection. But as Paul says;

Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

How can a man of God become perfect without God? Shall I take His Word's, HE had written for my sake, and judge them as beneath me? Unworthy of my respect and reverence because I was born with a certain DNA?

My friend, I wish I could make you think about and even discuss the Word's and Instructions HE had written for your admonition. But alas, all I can do is point them out to you. It is your choice whether to believe or not.

You think about these things for awhile is you want, and get back to me. Or Not! There is no reason to continue unless you can come to terms with the Biblical truth that there is no Jew or Gentile in the Christ of the Bible, and there never has been.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Yes, you keep saying that - and I keep saying, "that does not say that Gentiles who follow Jesus and have eternal life need to keep the law."
The law still stands, but Jesus has fulfilled it. As for Gentiles who were never under it; we have Jesus. Jesus is all we, or anyone else needs; he is THE Word of God; the Alpha and the Omega, the final Word.

The word of God, the final word (I don't believe he has given us the final word yet.), says that the law stands.

Why would you say that Yahshua fulfilled the law, past tense? Yahshua said that the law and the prophets would not pass away before heaven and earth, till all be fulfilled.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
How do you define a "precept"? All the laws in Leviticus? All the words that God spoke to other people about tearing down their idols, or building the tabernacle? Or the 10 commandments?

pre·cept
/ˈprēˌsept/

noun

1. a general rule intended to regulate behavior or thought: "the legal precept of being innocent until proven guilty"

Clearly these precepts transcend the Ten Commandments, and even the 613.

Here is proof;

It is written that drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom.

(CLV) 1Co 6:9
Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,

(CLV) 1Co 6:10
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; not revilers, not extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom.

We can find no specific prohibition of drunkenness within the 10 Commandments. I can find no prohibition from drunkenness in the 613. For that matter, I can't find any specific prohibition of drunkenness, anywhere in the TaNaK; but if we have a heart for YHWH's word; if we study his word; this precept is revealed to us.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,910
NW England
✟1,041,208.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The word of God, the final word (I don't believe he has given us the final word yet.), says that the law stands.

The law still exists and is valid, but Gentile believers who are in Christ and have freedom, eternal life, forgiveness and every blessing are not told that they have to keep it - and never were.
Jewish believers don't have to keep it either.
And by "law" I mean all the instructions in Leviticus about food, clothing and social customs; not the 10 commandments.

Why would you say that Yahshua fulfilled the law, past tense?

Read Leviticus.
If the people sinned, they had to offer a sacrifice. If they were guilty, they offered a sacrifice. If they wanted to make a peace offering - another sacrifice. On some occasions they made burnt, or grain, offerings. Do we do that today? No; Christ offered his life once and for all as a sacrifice for sin, Hebrews 9:26, Hebrews 10:12. If we confess our sins, Jesus forgives us and takes away our guilt, 1 John 1:9. Christ has made peace between us and God, Romans 5:1, Colossians 1:20.
God gave the people rules on how to be holy; eat certain types of food, wear clothes of only one fabric, not touch anyone who was deemed to be "unclean", not marry anyone of another faith - and others. Paul said that it was not wise to marry a non Christian, but apart from that Jesus made us holy when he made it possible for God's Holy Spirit to live IN us.
God gave the Hebrew people certain festivals to keep - most of which were to remind them of the time that he rescued them from slavery, sin and death at the hands of the Egyptians. They had the feast of Tabernacles, the Passover, the Day of Atonement, the feast of unlevened bread, and others. Jesus, the eternal Word, became flesh and was tabernacled (dwelt) among us. He is the Passover Lamb, 1 Corinthians 5:7, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29; the spotless Lamb without sin, 1 Peter 1:19, 1 Corinthians 1:7. He atoned for us when he died on Good Friday, Matthew 26:28, Mark 10:45. And when he celebrated one final, earthly, Passover before he died, he told his disciples to "do this in memory of me."
He is the bread of life and the true vine. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the author and perfector of our faith, and all we need.

Yahshua said that the law and the prophets would not pass away before heaven and earth, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus also taught the disciples how the law and the prophets spoke about him, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:44. The prophets prophesied his coming, his ministry, his death and resurrection; he fulfilled these prophecies when he came, ministered, taught, died and was raised again.
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,115
618
65
Michigan
✟318,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So - DO you believe that "God's word" includes ALL the promises written in Leviticus, and Exodus and Deuteronomy? And do you keep the?

You are asking if I believe in the Word of God which became Flesh? Yes, Like Paul, I believe all that is written.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they (Mainstream Preachers of Paul's time) call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

You obviously don't, and the Pharisees didn't either. I think this is a pit you have fallen into and I am trying to help you out.

Do I strive to be an obedient son now that Jesus shed His Blood for my past rebellion and disobedience, Absolutely. Do I follow your words or some "other religious voice" like Eve did? No, I strive against God's definition of sin, not religious mans. Am I perfect? NO. I'll use Paul's words to describe the race that the Christ set before me.

Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Why does Paul and those who he is teaching, press toward perfection? For me, it’s because my Savior, who purchased me, gave me the command.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Shall I choose to reject these Words along with Leviticus because some religious voice tells me to do so? I think not!!! Can I follow this Jesus' instruction without God? I think not!!!

The laws that were given to the Hebrews at Mt Sinai, through Moses, were for those who had been rescued from Egypt by God. That might have included some who wanted to convert to the faith - Egyptians who wanted to escape the final plague, trusted in the God of Abraham and put themselves under the protection of the lamb's blood. But Gentiles were not under God's law and included as God's people unless they trusted in the One God and converted to the faith.

I, personally, have no Jewish ancestors. I am connected with Judaism in that the Lord Jesus and the early church were all Jews; that's it. But as they taught at the council of Jerusalem, Gentiles did not have to convert to Judaism before they could find salvation in Jesus.

You obviously don’t understand Paul when he said the Law was Spiritual.

Just as the law regarding oxen was Spiritual and made “for our sakes no doubt”, and the Word's of Jesus requiring that we "Must" eat His Flesh before we can enter eternal life is Spiritual, so also is the story of the Exodus. You are not taught this in the religions of the land, but Jesus and Paul did understand and teach this.

Egypt represents sin that has captured men and made them slaves. God sent His Prophet Moses to free them from this slavery of sin and deception, a yoke of bondage that snares men. He started by showing them the power of the God of Abraham, then HE prepared a sacrifice for them, as Paul says “While they were yet in sin” (Egypt)


Every man starts here, most never leave this servitude, but for those who have faith in the Christ of the Bible, there is Hope.

This "Exodus from sin" is the same Spiritual journey Abraham followed.

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And Abraham believed in this God.

4. So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him

This same Lord became Flesh and dwelt among us and said the very same thing to us.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The Exodus we all partake of and are "grafted into" is detailed in the Law and Prophets that you are so eager to omit. But Paul knew better, that is why He told all men, Jew and Gentile, that "ALL" Scripture is inspired by the same ONE God.

I don't understand the question.
Do you mean Zechariah? If so, which one; the prophet? The father of John the Baptist or one of the other 26 men, apparently, in Scripture who bear that name?
Why are you asking about Zechariah when you quoted from Isaiah?
Whoever this person is, what have they got to do with the Pharisees?

The following explains my question.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

My question was, what do you see as the main difference between Zacharias and the Pharisees according to the scriptures. Why did Zacharias know Jesus when HE came, but the High Priest and Pharisees didn't?

I'm not sure that you have any support for your belief that it was included; just assumption that it must have been.

I suppose you may be right. I do assume Jesus is true, and that HE means what HE says, both as the Word of God, and the Flesh the Word of God became in the person of Jesus. I assumed that since HE quoted from Leviticus as the place where God wrote the 2nd greatest commandment, it was still a trustworthy source for instruction in righteousness. I assumed when HE said the Law and the Prophets will be here till heaven and earth pass, that this would also include Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

When HE said;

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I assumed HIS intent was not to exclude Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

When HE said;

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

I assumed His intent was not to exclude Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

So you are right. I do "ASSUME" that Jesus Word's are truth, both as the Word of God, the as a flesh and blood man. I don't apologize for that.

Exactly.
So are we, who are saved by, belong to and told to live in the new High Priest - Jesus himself - bound by the laws of the Old Covenant, which as you said, changed?

Not everyone who says they are saved, are saved. This is simply Biblical Fact. Jesus said those who "endure to the end" shall be saved. Shall I not believe Him?

We are not bound by the Levitical Priesthood, the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf for the administration of God's Laws and the atonement of sins, that was "ADDED because of Transgressions". Nothing else changed. As Paul confirmed when he was explaining one of God's Laws you claim have become obsolete.

1 Cor. 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Well as I don't have an oxen, that makes it a very easy word to obey.
I never said any of these laws were stupid, I was asking if you believe we are bound by them. I don't.

Paul said it isn't about Oxen. Why don't you believe him?

No idea - it's one of the laws in Leviticus that you seem to think we need to keep.
I don't have a beard, personally, so it's not a problem.

So in your religion, the Word of God that became Flesh created Laws only designated for Oxen, cloth, and facial hair of men with a certain DNA. Doesn't that seem a little odd to you?

You tell me.
You are arguing that when Jesus said we should believe every word that God spoke, that includes Leviticus. One of the commands in Leviticus is that you shall not trim the end of your beard; I'm asking you, as a believer that Leviticus has to be kept today, if you keep it.

Yes, I am agreeing with Jesus and Paul and Peter and Moses, that God's Word are written for my sake, for my admonition. I am disagreeing with yours and other religious voices who would have me believe God's Word is only about oxen and facial hair of men born of a certain DNA. I know that God speaks in parables for this very reason. To place a difference between those who would judge His Words as beneath them, and those who believe in this God and Study in Faith, in the hope that HE will reveal to them the Spiritual reason behind the Words, as Paul did regarding threshing out the grain.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I am assuming Paul is not excluding God's Words in Leviticus and Deuteronomy from the Law and prophets he said he believe all that was written in.

I don't understand what you mean by that.
What I have been asking all along is, when you say we need to keep every word of God, does that include ALL the laws in Leviticus?"
If so, do you keep them - including the one abut the beard?

I didn't say to believe Moses, the Jesus of the Bible did, I just quoted Him and I believe Him. I didn't say to "Live by" Every Word of God, the Jesus of the Bible did, I just quoted Him and I believe Him. I know God isn't interested in facial hair or oxen, that HE speaks in parables, and that HE wrote these Word "for my sake no doubt". I don't think we should throw His Word's away just because we may not understand them.

This law, offering animals as sacrifice for sin, is explained in Leviticus; a book of the Bible which you seem certain we should keep.

If I only read one chapter of the Bible, or listen to some preacher somewhere, and judged the rest of the Bible as beneath me, and unworthy of my respect, then I might believe God only wants Sacrifice. But because I listened to the Jesus of the Bible, I am studying Every Word of God. In following His instructions, I learned that the sacrifices were only in place "till the Seed should come", which has already happened if one believes the Holy Scriptures. So why would I still partake in Sacrificial Laws that God Himself Prophesied in the Law and Prophets, would come to an end? Yet this same God prophesied in the same Law and Prophets that HIS Laws and Sabbaths, He made for man, would still be here after He comes back?

So there ARE parts of God's word that we don't keep?

Yes, but not Duet 24:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. As Paul taught this and he also said; "Let us therefore keep the Feast".

But the Levitical Priesthood with it's atonement laws did change, and become obsolete.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Heb. 9:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

By Law, only a Levite could become the High Priest. Jesus wasn't a Levite. So before HE could become our High Priest, the Law regarding the Priesthood had to, by necessity, change. God's desire for obedience, not sacrifice, is taught throughout the Law and Prophets. His promise of the end of these things is promise as well.

The Mainstream preachers of Jesus Time didn't believe this, and neither do many who come in Christs name today. Nevertheless, it's right there in your own Bible.

Not always; in Abraham and Moses' day, another organ of the body was involved.

Only those who don't believe the Law is Spiritual, don't believe that circumcision is always of the heart..

I don't need to understand it.
I'm not a Jew and Jesus is my High Priest.

If you are convinced you don't need to study to show yourself approved, that you "don't need to know", then there you go, what more can I say?

I really don't understand the rest of your post.
You seem adamant that as we have to obey EVERY word of God, there is no reason why that shouldn't include Leviticus. But then you say that sacrificial laws are obsolete and we have a new high priest and the old covenant its obsolete - as well as asking questions about why God is concerned with beard length.

Again, Jesus as the Messiah, and as the Word of God, are the ones who told men over and over and over and over and over, to listen and obey God's Words. You keep attributing this to me when it wasn't me who authored the Words. Why do you do this? It was the God of the Bible who said HE didn't desire Sacrifice for sins, but obedience , and it was HIM, not me, that foretold of a time when the sacrifices would end. I just believe Him.

It was Paul who said God's Laws were spiritual, that He is concerned about men, not oxen or beard length. It is you who can't seem to understand these things, not me. I'm just trying to show you what is written.

It's quite simple - Leviticus (and Exodus and Deuteronomy) is either included in the every word from God which we are to keep, or it isn't. And if it is, that means EVERY word - you don't get to pick and choose from the laws in there, and you can't say that half the laws are obsolete.

I am not saying half of God's Laws are obsolete. God Himself foretold of the end of animal sacrifice. I am just believing Him. God Himself inspired it to be written that He speaks in Parables, not me. I just believe Him. Paul said God wrote His Laws in Duet. and Lev. "for our sake's no doubt", not me. I just believe him. Paul said God is not concerned with oxen but with man, not me. I just believe Him.

It appears you don't. And we know the mainstream preachers of Paul's time didn't either. I am simply promoting the idea that maybe the Scriptures are truth, and it is religious man, who doesn't believe His Word's, that is the problem.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
by "law" I mean all the instructions in Leviticus about food, clothing and social customs; not the 10 commandments.

There is nothing in the 10 about abstaining for blood. Where do you suppose James got that?

There is nothing in the 10 about drunkenness. Where do you suppose Paul got that?

YHWH's perfect Torah goes far deeper than the 10.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Read Leviticus.
If the people sinned, they had to offer a sacrifice. If they were guilty, they offered a sacrifice. If they wanted to make a peace offering - another sacrifice. On some occasions they made burnt, or grain, offerings. Do we do that today? No; Christ offered his life once and for all as a sacrifice for sin, Hebrews 9:26, Hebrews 10:12. If we confess our sins, Jesus forgives us and takes away our guilt, 1 John 1:9. Christ has made peace between us and God, Romans 5:1, Colossians 1:20.
God gave the people rules on how to be holy; eat certain types of food, wear clothes of only one fabric, not touch anyone who was deemed to be "unclean", not marry anyone of another faith - and others. Paul said that it was not wise to marry a non Christian, but apart from that Jesus made us holy when he made it possible for God's Holy Spirit to live IN us.
God gave the Hebrew people certain festivals to keep - most of which were to remind them of the time that he rescued them from slavery, sin and death at the hands of the Egyptians. They had the feast of Tabernacles, the Passover, the Day of Atonement, the feast of unlevened bread, and others. Jesus, the eternal Word, became flesh and was tabernacled (dwelt) among us. He is the Passover Lamb, 1 Corinthians 5:7, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29; the spotless Lamb without sin, 1 Peter 1:19, 1 Corinthians 1:7. He atoned for us when he died on Good Friday, Matthew 26:28, Mark 10:45. And when he celebrated one final, earthly, Passover before he died, he told his disciples to "do this in memory of me."
He is the bread of life and the true vine. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the author and perfector of our faith, and all we need.

None of this proves that Yahshua fulfilled the law, past tense.

Aside from other flaws in this response, Yahshua did not die on a Friday; and YHWH's Moedim (Feasts) are forever; and they will even be honored by the foreigner in the kingdom to come.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Jesus also taught the disciples how the law and the prophets spoke about him, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:44. The prophets prophesied his coming, his ministry, his death and resurrection; he fulfilled these prophecies when he came, ministered, taught, died and was raised again.

Stay tuned. All has not been fulfilled concerning him. He WILL return!
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
There is nothing in the 10 about abstaining for blood. Where do you suppose James got that?

There is nothing in the 10 about drunkenness. Where do you suppose Paul got that?

YHWH's perfect Torah goes far deeper than the 10.

This is the point I make very frequently to folks such as the Seventh-Day Adventists who stoutly insist that all humanity, and especially believers in Christ, are obligated to keep God's commandments and that what God has written cannot be changed. However, they are equally strident that God's unchangeable commandments are only the 10 and then they conveniently pick and choose which of the others to obey.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
This is the point I make very frequently to folks such as the Seventh-Day Adventists who stoutly insist that all humanity, and especially believers in Christ, are obligated to keep God's commandments and that what God has written cannot be changed. However, they are equally strident that God's unchangeable commandments are only the 10 and then they conveniently pick and choose which of the others to obey.

I haven't met an SDA member who is perfect; but neither am I.

Let us pray to YHWH, to give us the strength to come to full obedience to his perfect Torah; so that when the beams have been removed form our eyes; we can see the specks in the eyes of our brothers.

Even more so, let us pray to YHWH, to give us the strength to come to full obedience to his perfect Torah; so that as we follow in the steps of Messiah; we can become shining examples to those who would practice lawlessness in his kadosh name.

Hallelu YAH!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Studyman
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
27,803
13,115
72
✟362,269.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I haven't met an SDA member who is perfect; but neither am I.

Let us pray to YHWH, to give us the strength to come to full obedience to his perfect Torah; so that when the beams have been removed form our eyes; we can see the specks in the eyes of our brothers.

Even more so, let us pray to YHWH, to give us the strength to come to full obedience to his perfect Torah; so that as we follow in the steps of Messiah; we can become shining examples to those who would practice lawlessness in his kadosh name.

Hallelu YAH!

! כמה שאני אוהב את החוק שלך
. אני מהרהר על זה כל היום
 
  • Like
Reactions: HARK!
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,910
NW England
✟1,041,208.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is nothing in the 10 about abstaining for blood. Where do you suppose James got that?

Genesis 9:4 - Noah.
Not a law for Gentile followers of Christ.

There is nothing in the 10 about drunkenness. Where do you suppose Paul got that?

Common sense, I would have thought; no good comes from drunkenness - just ask Noah.

YHWH's perfect Torah goes far deeper than the 10.

I'm trying to get some definition of "law" from you.
I said that by "law", I mean ALL the commands in Leviticus and not JUST the 10 commandments. How about you?
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,767
7,910
NW England
✟1,041,208.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
None of this proves that Yahshua fulfilled the law, past tense.

As far as I can see, Jesus fulfilled the demands of the law for a perfect sacrifice for sin; one that would cleanse us for all time, not have to be offered over and over again.
And he makes us holy.

Aside from other flaws in this response,

It's a shame that you call a Scriptural argument and Scripture references, "flaws".

Yahshua did not die on a Friday;

Well that would be a topic for another thread; if I thought it was important enough to argue about.
The point is that he died as a sacrifice for our sins. Whether it was Monday, Thursday or Saturday; nothing negates that main truth.

YHWH's Moedim (Feasts) are forever; and they will even be honored by the foreigner in the kingdom to come.

Well if you want to keep them; good for you.
Jesus is all I need.
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,115
618
65
Michigan
✟318,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,680
8,035
US
✟1,060,277.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Genesis 9:4 - Noah.
Not a law for Gentile followers of Christ.

Try again.

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Studyman
Upvote 0