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FreeinChrist · Jul 3, 2020

rjs330 said:
The EU doesn't have the Constitutional Government of the United States. The US was founded on states power not federal power. The Federal government has grabbed more and more power from the states as time has gone on. It doesn't mean it's right. The states have allowed it. But the Feds don't automatically have the power to mandate states to do things. They have to pass laws that require states to do certain things.

The science is not clear on masks. There is enough evidence that says masks are not that effective.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't use abundance of caution. I wear a mask when in public. But you act like the federal government mandating masks is the major thing. States can do that without the feds. I haven't seen Congress pass any laws on masks.

Vaccines are irrelevant. We don't have one for COVID. No one does. I'm not sure why you brought it up.

The Feds should be there to help the states, not control them. And I am seeing states take their own steps without federal mandates. That's what they should be doing. If the states need assistance the states have gotten it.

In terms of vaccines, I was supplying an instance of federal involvement.

The feds could do more to help the states. It took too long for federal action. As I stated, the Trump administration could have set up a national source for supplies by buying at a price and then selling to the states for the same price rather than states buying supplies at inflated prices because they were competing.

Having a national plan doesn't mean controlling the states. From what I see, Republicans politicized masks and the whole pandemic led by their leader who dismissed it right off as going "to disappear".

Kentonio · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
I doubt that would fly here.

When enough people start dying, people will spend a lot less time worrying about abstract concepts.

dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

Kentonio said:
When enough people start dying, people will spend a lot less time worrying about abstract concepts.

how many are you saying is enough then?

istodolez · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
I can about promise you we will not shut down ( like before again.)

Things look reasonably dire, so it's hard to believe we won't wind up shut down. We did such a bad job with the shutdown last time (not long enough) and we didn't use the time to really bulk up and prepare for the subsequent waves so we are now looking down the barrel of something much worse than what it was in March-April. The only problem now is that governors and local officials are TERRIFIED of shutting down because Americans can't handle the hard work of dealing with a disaster like adults.

This isn't to downplay the very real economic devastation this all causes, but if you don't do the hardwork up front the damage (both physically and economically) will go on much longer and be much worse in the long haul.

But I guess we'll see. I think this time 'round we're going to try the "do even less" approach so we'll get to see exactly how badly that will go.

Kentonio · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
how many are you saying is enough then?

Who knows. In Italy and Spain at the height of their outbreaks when death tolls were horrific there was almost no-one whining about freedom, because the body count made that an obviously self-indulgent thing to focus on while hospital doctors were having to choose which patients to save and which to let die.

Allandavid · Jul 3, 2020

Albion said:
Have you noticed that the number of deaths, which once were the number one concern, now are made very little of by the news reports?

Ummmmm......

Now, if you kinda squint and don’t examine too closely, people like you will say “See, told you the numbers are coming down...!”

Until you examine the trend since about mid-June. That’s a ‘flattening of the curve’, but not one you’d want to see...

SaintCody777 · Jul 3, 2020

Nithavela said:
Personally I think the last thing you need is multiple organ failure.

What actually works is social distancing, mask wearing, and shield wearing, which a lot of people scoffed at and if they do its not worn properly.
Perhaps, I should stop using the term "social distancing" as if stopping any interaction with fellow people and use physical distancing instead.
However That is what contributes to the spike in cases.

rjs330 said:
I'm not surprised about any of this. We knew it was going to happen. Once people got out and started moving around it was going to spread.

It was inevitable. Americans just won't give up their lifestyle for COVID. They won't stay shut down, they won't maintain social distancing.

Nothing more can be done.

Spain, the UK, and France which had been under strict lockdown for longer has a higher case fatality rate than the US. Likewise, states that enacted longer, stricter lockdown have a higher case fatality rate than national average.
worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Likewise, States that have relaxed social distancing and opened earlier, like Georgia and Florida, has a lower case fatality rate than national average. What about the BLM and anti-police protesters/rioters?

dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

Kentonio said:
Who knows. In Italy and Spain at the height of their outbreaks when death tolls were horrific there was almost no-one whining about freedom, because the body count made that an obviously self-indulgent thing to focus on while hospital doctors were having to choose which patients to save and which to let die.

We are also more spread out., as well though Fr example, I am in GA a state that currently seeing a big increase ( although currently the death rate is staying about the same and in my particular county ( local government district we only have a few active cases, but if you take a state that has fewer cases just because I LOT of people are dying here does not mean that the same can be said of another state the cases are different the deaths are different from state to state and even county to county, so that can make a difference as to "enough".)

loveofourlord · Jul 3, 2020

Albion said:
I have no idea what point you want to make there, but the death totals from Covid-19 are less than from the flu that we have lived with year after year without upending all of the people's rights. Naturally, the scare merchants and their political agenda do not want to give that reality very much coverage.

what are you smoking? 34k people died 2018-2019 covid already has 4 times that in the states, what planet are you from?

loveofourlord · Jul 3, 2020

Kentonio said:
I think you’ll see a very rapid change in people’s attitudes and behaviours when this starts to spiral out of control. Sometimes it takes being confronted by disaster to wake people up to what is important.

how so? Texas looks to be on the brink of colapse with while today was quiet with only 30 ICU additions it was 80 and 120 the other day, with just under 1, 200 beds left. It's already dire and you have bar lives matter during that.

Desk trauma · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
how many are you saying is enough then?

If I am being optimistic it's going to take however many are needed for doctors to have to start leaving people to die due to lack of resources but with how pervasive conspiratorial thinking has become even that may not be sufficient to get the ineptitude of our response across to many.

dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

Desk trauma said:
If I am being optimistic it's going to take however many are needed for doctors to have to start leaving people to die due to lack of resources but with how pervasive conspiratorial thinking has become even that may not be sufficient to get the ineptitude of our response across to many.

but if we control this that will not happen.

Desk trauma · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
but if we control this that will not happen.

We're not controlling it and I am starting to think we never will or its too late to do so.

dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

Desk trauma said:
We're not controlling it.

I did not say we were I said if we did we would not have those choices to make. Although I would also think that would take volunteers first BEFORE making those choices.

Desk trauma · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
I did not say we were I said if we did we would not have those choices to make. Although I would also think that would take volunteers first BEFORE making those choices.

People are not willing to wear masks to protect others due to inconvenience. Upon falling deathly ill I do not see large numbers rejecting treatment for others.

dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

Desk trauma said:
People are not willing to wear masks to protect others due to inconvenience. Upon falling deathly ill I do not see large numbers rejecting treatment for others.

Correct, but I can say there will likely be some ( particularly people who know they have lived a long and protective life and/or people who know that a condition they have whether a direct risk factor or not is likely to lead to a shorter life. For example, I have CP I would hope that if faced with that choice I would choose to let the other person live because despite being just a little over a month from my 29th birthday even I know that no matter what it is likely I will pass at least ten years early if not more, so it would make sense for me to give those resources to someone who WOULD be more likely to lead a normal lifespan life and whose condition ( other than the virus may not go downhill as quickly as mine will. I have already found short of 30 I am not nearly as good as I once was modissbility wise, for example.

Tom 1 · Jul 4, 2020

hedrick said:
You mean national leadership. We are a federation. In this case we're behaving like the EU rather than an individual nation. We would have been better off with national leadership, but plenty of states have shown leadership. The problem isn't just lack of national leadership but the fact that response became a partisan issue, so states behaved differently. Although you can kind of understand that. The states that responded did so when they saw cases rising. Even the Northeast should have reacted sooner. Other states decided to believe it wouldn't happen to them possibly because they were less densely populated.

It's an interesting case in alternate-world fiction to think of what the states would have done if Trump had said in January: "This isn't my problem. States should plan to deal with this on their own. Start now."

I know that’s the theory, but it doesn’t appear to be operating like that. Trump has been alternately offering misleading information and publicallly castigating state governors who don’t do things his way - to the extent that can be understood — and making regular pronouncements that sometimes states appear to take as their cue to act, and saying, as you said that states shouldn’t look to the govt for leadership and support. It’s a confusing picture, at least that is how it looks from the outside. Doesn’t the president have some responsibility to provide clarity and to try to coordinate a response with state leadership in this kind of situation, or at a minimum to avoid muddying the waters with contradictory and misleading information ?
Do state governors have the authority to limit interstate travel and take other measures of that sort? Is that sort of thing entirely down to the state, and does the Federal govt have some role in coordinating the measures different states take?

GoldenBoy89 · Jul 4, 2020

Desk trauma said:
We're not controlling it and I am starting to think we never will or its too late to do so.

Yeah. I don’t see us magically resolving together to take on the challenge anymore. The president has pretty much given up on the effort and it’s now every state for themselves as to how they want to deal with it. Some states might do better than others but nationally our response has been a dumpster fire.

KCfromNC · Jul 4, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
It is an option so far looking at the numbers deaths= six figure but recoveries= seven figures

So only a 10% death rate? No big deal. Reopen everything!

KCfromNC · Jul 4, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
how many are you saying is enough then?

Give it a few weeks and you'll see.

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