G4102 - Faith

HARK! · Jul 4, 2020

G4102 - πίστις: How do we best define this Greek word?

Thayers
Definition:

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

Well the NT came long after the Greeks were using this word; so defining it by the NT is circular reasoning.

a. relating to God

The Greeks worshiped Zeus. That's not the context we are looking for.

1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

b. relating to Christ

1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

This Greek word preceded Messiah's ministry. Again circular.

c. the religious beliefs of Christians

Would this include Abraham? This definition isn't inclusive enough; and again, it's circular.

d. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

I learned in elementary school that it's against the rules to use a word to define itself. More circularity.

2. fidelity, faithfulness

Now we're getting somewhere! I think we're finally starting to get past 2000 years of doctrine, and into the Greek definition as it was applied to what is written in the NT, not dogma.

a. the character of one who can be relied on

What exactly is fidelity?

fi·del·i·ty | \ fə-ˈde-lə-tē
, fī- \
plural fidelities
Definition of fidelity
1a : the quality or state of being faithful his fidelity to his wife

Well based on our covenant relationship; I would view this as a perfect choice of words.

Let's look at faithfulness!

faith·ful | \ ˈfāth-fəl

Definition of faithful
(Entry 1 of 2)

1 : steadfast in affection or allegiance : loyal a faithful friend
2 : firm in adherence to promises or in observance of duty : conscientious a faithful employee

Hmm... Loyalty.

How do we show loyalty?

honey badger · Jul 4, 2020

faith is not a commodity we can add or take away from, but an inheritance already given ...

That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

a-lily-of-peace · Jul 4, 2020

For we walk by faith, not by sight.

(2 Corinthians 5:7, NKJV)

—

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death,“and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said,“In Isaac your seed shall be called,” concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

(Hebrews 11, NKJV)

Richard T · Jul 4, 2020

honey badger said:
faith is not a commodity we can add or take away from, but an inheritance already given ...

That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Thanks for the Philemon scripture. To me it says when you acknowledge every good thing that is in you in Christ, it causes a positive effect. I do not think it does not mean you can't go from faith to faith. I think we can enlarge our faith, much like grace and peace can be multiplied.
2 Corinthians 8:7 (KJV)
7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

honey badger · Jul 4, 2020

Richard T said:
Thanks for the Philemon scripture. To me it says when you acknowledge every good thing that is in you in Christ, it causes a positive effect. I do not think it does not mean you can't go from faith to faith. I think we can enlarge our faith, much like grace and peace can be multiplied.
2 Corinthians 8:7 (KJV)
7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

by entering into our faith it becomes effectual .....

Richard T · Jul 4, 2020

honey badger said:
by entering into our faith it becomes effectual .....

I am not 100% sure what that means in practical terms. Do we increase our faith as we journey on? or is it the faith in us already that is activated as we continue? Or is faith simply given and that is it?

honey badger · Jul 4, 2020

Richard T said:
I am not 100% sure what that means in practical terms. Do we increase our faith as we journey on? or is it the faith in us already that is activated as we continue? Or is faith simply given and that is it?

yes .... the entering into our faith which is not separate from the Truth of self as His Son(s) .... the more we enter the more we see the more we enter ....

Carl Emerson · Jul 4, 2020

I find this topic really simple but few seem to get it...

Faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ. Period.

Read His word in the Spirit and you receive faith.

Hear His still small voice and you receive faith.

But the problem is what we do with it.

We can ignore it.

We can refuse it.

We can be afraid to obey it.

These result in unbelief which is a sin.

So He speaks and we choose to walk in faith or unbelief.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 4, 2020

HARK! said:
G4102 - πίστις: How do we best define this Greek word?

Thayers
Definition:

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

Well the NT came long after the Greeks were using this word; so defining it by the NT is circular reasoning.

a. relating to God

The Greeks worshiped Zeus. That's not the context we are looking for.

1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

b. relating to Christ

1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

This Greek word preceded Messiah's ministry. Again circular.

c. the religious beliefs of Christians

Would this include Abraham? This definition isn't inclusive enough; and again, it's circular.

d. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

I learned in elementary school that it's against the rules to use a word to define itself. More circularity.

2. fidelity, faithfulness

Now we're getting somewhere! I think we're finally starting to get past 2000 years of doctrine, and into the Greek definition as it was applied to what is written in the NT, not dogma.

a. the character of one who can be relied on

What exactly is fidelity?

fi·del·i·ty | \ fə-ˈde-lə-tē
, fī- \
plural fidelities
Definition of fidelity
1a : the quality or state of being faithful his fidelity to his wife

Well based on our covenant relationship; I would view this as a perfect choice of words.

Let's look at faithfulness!

faith·ful | \ ˈfāth-fəl

Definition of faithful
(Entry 1 of 2)

1 : steadfast in affection or allegiance : loyal a faithful friend
2 : firm in adherence to promises or in observance of duty : conscientious a faithful employee

Hmm... Loyalty.

How do we show loyalty?

I tend to look through the various possible definitions and come to "Trust" as in a relationship and ask how that looks.

Mr. M · Jul 4, 2020

Michael Collum said:
I tend to look through the various possible definitions and come to "Trust" as in a relationship and ask how that looks.

Do we consider King David an Anointed man of God to teach us Faith in advance?
Psalm 37:
5 Commit your way to the Lord,
Trust also in Him,
And He shall bring it to pass.
6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light,
And your justice as the noonday.
7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.

HARK! · Jul 4, 2020

honey badger said:
faith is not a commodity we can add or take away from, but an inheritance already given ...

That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

This scripture doesn't back that assertion.

HARK! · Jul 4, 2020

Richard T said:
Thanks for the Philemon scripture. To me it says when you acknowledge every good thing that is in you in Christ, it causes a positive effect. I do not think it does not mean you can't go from faith to faith. I think we can enlarge our faith, much like grace and peace can be multiplied.
2 Corinthians 8:7 (KJV)
7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

I too believe that we can grow in our faithfulness.

HARK! · Jul 4, 2020

Michael Collum said:
I tend to look through the various possible definitions and come to "Trust" as in a relationship and ask how that looks.

"Trust."

That would be the definition as I have understood it; but we are not to rely on our own understanding.

(CLV) Pr 3:5
Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, And do not lean to your own understanding.

This is why I put my understanding to the test.

Now why would whoever wrote these books in Greek, take a Greek word, and apply a definition to it which didn't exist in the Greek use of the word?

There is a Greek word which covers that definition, as used in Greek; and it is used many times in scripture.

G3982 πείθω

Thayers
Definition:

1. persuade

a. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

b. to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one

c. to tranquillise

d. to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something

2. be persuaded

a. to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing

1. to believe

2. to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person

b. to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with

3. to trust, have confidence, be confident

Der Alte · Jul 4, 2020

HARK! said:
G4102 - πίστις: How do we best define this Greek word?
Thayers
Definition:
1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
Well the NT came long after the Greeks were using this word; so defining it by the NT is circular reasoning.
a. relating to God
The Greeks worshiped Zeus. That's not the context we are looking for.
1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
b. relating to Christ
1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
This Greek word preceded Messiah's ministry. Again circular.
c. the religious beliefs of Christians
Would this include Abraham? This definition isn't inclusive enough; and again, it's circular.
d. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
I learned in elementary school that it's against the rules to use a word to define itself. More circularity.
2. fidelity, faithfulness
Now we're getting somewhere! I think we're finally starting to get past 2000 years of doctrine, and into the Greek definition as it was applied to what is written in the NT, not dogma.
a. the character of one who can be relied on
What exactly is fidelity?
fi·del·i·ty | \ fə-ˈde-lə-tē , fī- \
plural fidelities
Definition of fidelity
1a : the quality or state of being faithful his fidelity to his wife
Well based on our covenant relationship; I would view this as a perfect choice of words.
Let's look at faithfulness!
faith·ful | \ ˈfāth-fəl
Definition of faithful
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : steadfast in affection or allegiance : loyal a faithful friend
2 : firm in adherence to promises or in observance of duty : conscientious a faithful employee
Hmm... Loyalty.
How do we show loyalty?

Rubbish! Meaningless unsupported personal opinion. I can't post the entire definition of pistis from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek Lexicon it is 5 pages long Here are a few highlights and a link to an earlier edition which is out of copyright.
Unless you can bring 120-160 years of scholarship, similar to BDAG, to the table again your unsupported opinion is not relevant. And please note the dozens and dozens of sources the authors consulted.

πίστις, εως, ἡ (Hes., Hdt.+; ranging in meaning from subjective confidence to objective basis for confidence).
① that which evokes trust and faith
ⓐ the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitment
ⓑ a solemn promise to be faithful and loyal, assurance, oath, troth
ⓒ a token offered as a guarantee of someth. promised, proof, pledge
② state of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted, trust, confidence, faith
ⓐ God: πίστις θεοῦ (cp. Jos., Ant. 17, 179.—Cp. π. καὶ φόβος ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ Theoph. Ant. 1, 7 [p. 72, 26]) faith, trust, confidence in God
ⓑ Christ
α. of belief and trust in the Lord’s help in physical and spiritual distress; oft. in the synopt. gospels:
ⓒ πίστις can also be characterized by an objective gen. of the thing: ἡ πίστις τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ faith in his (Jesus’) name Ac 3:16a. ἡ πίστις τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Phil 1:27. εὐαγγελίων πίστις Dg 11:6. πίστις ἀληθείας 2 Th 2:13.
ⓓ πίστις is found mostly without an obj., faith, firm commitment
③ that which is believed, body of faith/belief/teaching
http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm

Gregory Thompson · Jul 4, 2020

Baby Tiger said:
Do we consider King David an Anointed man of God to teach us Faith in advance?
Psalm 37:
5 Commit your way to the Lord,
Trust also in Him,
And He shall bring it to pass.
6 He shall bring forth your righteousness as the light,
And your justice as the noonday.
7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him;
Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.

David is kind of an example opposite Saul of what faith oriented motivation is over fear oriented motivation.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 4, 2020

HARK! said:
"Trust."

That would be the definition as I have understood it; but we are not to rely on our own understanding.

However, relying on another man's understanding, isn't much different than relying on your own understanding.

HARK! · Jul 4, 2020

Der Alte said:
Rubbish! Meaningless unsupported personal opinion. I can't post the entire definition of pistis from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek Lexicon it is 5 pages long Here are a few highlights and a link to an earlier edition which is out of copyright.
Unless you can bring 120-160 years of scholarship, similar to BDAG, to the table again your unsupported opinion is not relevant. And please note the dozens and dozens of sources the authors consulted.

πίστις, εως, ἡ (Hes., Hdt.+; ranging in meaning from subjective confidence to objective basis for confidence).
① that which evokes trust and faith
ⓐ the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitment
ⓑ a solemn promise to be faithful and loyal, assurance, oath, troth
ⓒ a token offered as a guarantee of someth. promised, proof, pledge
② state of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted, trust, confidence, faith
ⓐ God: πίστις θεοῦ (cp. Jos., Ant. 17, 179.—Cp. π. καὶ φόβος ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ Theoph. Ant. 1, 7 [p. 72, 26]) faith, trust, confidence in God
ⓑ Christ
α. of belief and trust in the Lord’s help in physical and spiritual distress; oft. in the synopt. gospels:
ⓒ πίστις can also be characterized by an objective gen. of the thing: ἡ πίστις τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ faith in his (Jesus’) name Ac 3:16a. ἡ πίστις τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Phil 1:27. εὐαγγελίων πίστις Dg 11:6. πίστις ἀληθείας 2 Th 2:13.
ⓓ πίστις is found mostly without an obj., faith, firm commitment
③ that which is believed, body of faith/belief/teaching
http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm

Thayer's Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament is one of the greatest achievements in biblical scholarship at the turn of the twentieth century. As the culmination of nearly three decades of work, more than 5,000 entries, references to grammatical and exegetical works, detailed etymology, and complete summaries of both biblical and extra-biblical word usage. Thayer's Greek–English Lexicon published in 1889 represents a watershed event in nineteenth-century Greek lexicography. [1]

Joseph Henry Thayer - Wikipedia

Gregory Thompson · Jul 4, 2020

duplicate

HARK! · Jul 4, 2020

Michael Collum said:
However, relying on another man's understanding, isn't much different than relying on your own understanding.

That's why I search the dictionaries to review the definitions of the words myself, rather than to rely on the various biases, found in various Bible translations.

Der Alte · Jul 4, 2020

HARK! said:
Thayer's Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament is one of the greatest achievements in biblical scholarship at the turn of the twentieth century. As the culmination of nearly three decades of work, more than 5,000 entries, references to grammatical and exegetical works, detailed etymology, and complete summaries of both biblical and extra-biblical word usage. Thayer's Greek–English Lexicon published in 1889 represents a watershed event in nineteenth-century Greek lexicography.

I read that before I posted. That is only one person and it does not include any manuscripts found or scholarship since its publication e.g. Qumran, DSS, Nag Hamadi etc . The BDAG is the work of 4 scholars totaling about 120-160 years of combined scholarship.

G4102 - Faith

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Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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