private businesses and masks ( little diffrent take)

dogs4thewin

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I have no idea what you're trying to say.
In other words even if you are wearing a mask and I am not does that not protect you from me some? From the pictures I have seen it does if I am understanding the picture correctly.
 
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In other words even if you are wearing a mask and I am not does that not protect you from me some? From the pictures I have seen it does if I am understanding the picture correctly.
The basic masks that most people are using are mostly effective at keeping them from passing on the virus to others. You are mainly protecting others by wearing a mask hence why its not about the fate of the people flouting mask requirements but the people they expose by doing so.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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In other words even if you are wearing a mask and I am not does that not protect you from me some? From the pictures I have seen it does if I am understanding the picture correctly.
Less than you wearing a mask protects me from you, more than not wearing a mask. And a lot less than both of us wearing masks.
 
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RDKirk

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In other words even if you are wearing a mask and I am not does that not protect you from me some? From the pictures I have seen it does if I am understanding the picture correctly.

Most people are not wearing masks that prevent inhaling viruses to any significant degree. That means the cotton bandannas and such. They are somewhat effective in blocking the larger droplets emitted by sneezes and coughs. IOW, they are better than nothing in protecting others, hardly at all in protecting the wearer.

Surgical masks are significantly better in blocking droplets out, slightly better in blocking droplets in.

N-95 and KN-95 masks are very good in blocking droplets out (except for the consumer versions with the exhalation ports) and also very good in blocking droplets in--if they are properly fitted and worn.

Right now, the medical experts are still being coy with the whole truth about masks in an effort to maintain their own supply of the effective N-95 masks. In fact, everyone should be wearing N-95/KN-95 masks, but they don't want to say so.
 
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The basic masks that most people are using are mostly effective at keeping them from passing on the virus to others. You are mainly protecting others by wearing a mask hence why its not about the fate of the people flouting mask requirements but the people they expose by doing so.
Exactly.

One could think about it as walking around naked. If a nudist walks around naked downtown it won't bother him or her. But the loose naughty bits around will tend to annoy others. If a person walks around without a mask he or she is not too likely to change his risk. But if that person is ill that person is far more likely to pass on their illness. And I need to remind people that this disease may be asymptomatic for up to two weeks. That is two weeks when one feels fine and can spread the virus. A microbiologist did an interesting experiment to show how effective masks work at protecting others:

Microbiologist shows how well masks work in gross but effective demonstration

featured-microbes-1593546553844-1593607373805.jpg
 
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eclipsenow

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Most people are not wearing masks that prevent inhaling viruses to any significant degree. That means the cotton bandannas and such. They are somewhat effective in blocking the larger droplets emitted by sneezes and coughs. IOW, they are better than nothing in protecting others, hardly at all in protecting the wearer.
Shhh! Don't let people know the truth!

Tell them to wear the mask because it will protect "the society." Don't tell Americans that the mask doesn't protect them in particular. I agree with you - masks protect other people from them in case they're unknowingly the spreader.

They won't get that
- they won't wear the masks once they understand how it works! What were you thinking? Just remember the phrase "Mah freedom!"

Surgical masks are significantly better in blocking droplets out, slightly better in blocking droplets in.
No! I've heard or Dr Norman Swan on the daily Coronacast explain that N-95's actually only block incoming droplets but explode out droplets everywhere! Because they're medical grade, they're assumed to be about protecting doctors working with patients that are already sick.

maintain their own supply of the effective N-95 masks. In fact, everyone should be wearing N-95/KN-95 masks, but they don't want to say so.
Not really - it's just you don't tell individualistic Americans to wear masks to protect everyone else. Mah freedom! and all that.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Shhh! Don't let people know the truth!

Tell them to wear the mask because it will protect "the society." Don't tell Americans that the mask doesn't protect them in particular. I agree with you - masks protect other people from them in case they're unknowingly the spreader.

They won't get that
- they won't wear the masks once they understand how it works! What were you thinking? Just remember the phrase "Mah freedom!"


No! I've heard or Dr Norman Swan on the daily Coronacast explain that N-95's actually only block incoming droplets but explode out droplets everywhere! Because they're medical grade, they're assumed to be about protecting doctors working with patients that are already sick.


Not really - it's just you don't tell individualistic Americans to wear masks to protect everyone else. Mah freedom! and all that.
We will see. In my state masks were supposedly required at businesses a week ago. I still see a few people at the grocery story not wearing masks. That is partly because the onus was on the people. Now they are changing that slightly. Businesses are being ordered to turn away anyone not wearing a mask starting Tuesday:

No mask, no service: Washington businesses must turn away customers without face masks starting July 7

We had been going in the right direction in this state, but we too may be suffering from either opening up too early or some reaction to the protests or both. Our numbers are climbing again, though not the death rate. That implies that older people are at least being more cautions.
 
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RDKirk

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No! I've heard or Dr Norman Swan on the daily Coronacast explain that N-95's actually only block incoming droplets but explode out droplets everywhere! Because they're medical grade, they're assumed to be about protecting doctors working with patients that are already sick.

That primarily applies to the masks with exhalation ports.

Although physics do matter. Obviously if someone sneezes or coughs hard enough in a mask held on by elastic bands, the explosive force may be enough to stretch the elastic, deform the shape of the flesh, and force part of the exhalation outward...a partial failure. But that bit of exhalation is going to be vastly less in volume than it would have been without the mask, and it will have been considerably slowed so that it won't travel as far.

Edit: Let me also add that we've got thousands of doctors, nurses, and staff working every day in covid-19 wards--absolutely 100% contact all day long with the covid-19 virus--wearing N-95 masks, and the percentage of illness among them is remarkably low considering they come into extensive contact with multiple active covid-19 infectious patients every day.

Given that few lay people face 100% daily exposure (maybe 2% of the people we come into contact with on a busy day shopping will be infectious), an N-95 mask worn properly will provide satisfactory protection. It would take some heavy stacking of the odds against a person to get nailed.
 
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eclipsenow

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Yes, a particularly hard sneeze might move a surgical mask but like all these things, it's statistical. If everyone wore the cheap surgical mask, and everyone washed their hands and stayed 6 foot or 1.5 meters away... the thing would die out. I don't know if you are on Facebook but this is a fun test run in a science lab with petri dishes. Talking, coughing, sneezing at different distances and with or without the mask.
COVID-19: How Effective Is Wearing A Mask?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Yes, a particularly hard sneeze might move a surgical mask but like all these things, it's statistical. If everyone wore the cheap surgical mask, and everyone washed their hands and stayed 6 foot or 1.5 meters away... the thing would die out. I don't know if you are on Facebook but this is a fun test run in a science lab with petri dishes. Talking, coughing, sneezing at different distances and with or without the mask.
COVID-19: How Effective Is Wearing A Mask?
That looks very similar to the article that I posted above. Same basic experiment, identically colored agar.
 
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Most people are not wearing masks that prevent inhaling viruses to any significant degree. That means the cotton bandannas and such. They are somewhat effective in blocking the larger droplets emitted by sneezes and coughs. IOW, they are better than nothing in protecting others, hardly at all in protecting the wearer.

Surgical masks are significantly better in blocking droplets out, slightly better in blocking droplets in.

N-95 and KN-95 masks are very good in blocking droplets out (except for the consumer versions with the exhalation ports) and also very good in blocking droplets in--if they are properly fitted and worn.

Right now, the medical experts are still being coy with the whole truth about masks in an effort to maintain their own supply of the effective N-95 masks. In fact, everyone should be wearing N-95/KN-95 masks, but they don't want to say so.
and frankly that may not be possible any now because if they are trying to protect their supply think of what it would be like for EVERYONE to wear one.
 
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RDKirk

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and frankly that may not be possible any now because if they are trying to protect their supply think of what it would be like for EVERYONE to wear one.

A clear statement back in February that everyone needs N-95 masks would not have changed the medical supply at all. Not at all. The medical system doesn't even use the same masks. The manufacturers make N-95 masks to specifications for the medical community. Medical N-95 masks are not like consumer N-95 masks. That production goes into the medical supply chain from the factory. All that was needed--and what was actually done--was that the factories cut off the consumer chain and put all their production into the medical supply chain.

But if they had made a clear statement back in February that everyone needed masks, that would have established an instant billion-dollar market to all the companies that could convert floor space to making N-95 masks. There would have been profit to be made, and America's free enterprise would have responded accordingly. General Motors, for instance, converted an auto assembly line to N-95 masks within a week purely on speculation that they'd be able to sell them.

Instead, they actually crippled a possible lucrative market at childbirth. We might all have the masks we need by now, including the medical community, if they had not said in February that nobody else should be wearing masks.
 
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A clear statement back in February that everyone needs N-95 masks would not have changed the medical supply at all. Not at all. The medical system doesn't even use the same masks. The manufacturers make N-95 masks to specifications for the medical community. Medical N-95 masks are not like consumer N-95 masks. That production goes into the medical supply chain from the factory. All that was needed--and what was actually done--was that the factories cut off the consumer chain and put all their production into the medical supply chain.

But if they had made a clear statement back in February that everyone needed masks, that would have established an instant billion-dollar market to all the companies that could convert floor space to making N-95 masks. There would have been profit to be made, and America's free enterprise would have responded accordingly. General Motors, for instance, converted an auto assembly line to N-95 masks within a week purely on speculation that they'd be able to sell them.

Instead, they actually crippled a possible lucrative market at childbirth. We might all have the masks we need by now, including the medical community, if they had not said in February that nobody else should be wearing masks.


No need for N-95 masks. Most that oppose the use of masks do not understand their purpose. They are not worn to protect the wearer. Their purpose is to protect the people that the wearer comes into contact with. This disease can have up to a two week incubation period during that time the person can spread the disease, even though they do not feel it themselves. Even a simple bandanna will greatly reduce the particulate matter if one speaks, sneezes or coughs.

If the rate of spreading of the disease is lowered obviously the number of people coming down with this will be greatly reduced as well. The prevalent wearing of masks in countries that have this under control is perhaps the top reason that they got their epidemics under control and the resistance to wearing masks here is why we have not.
 
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RDKirk

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No need for N-95 masks. Most that oppose the use of masks do not understand their purpose. They are not worn to protect the wearer. Their purpose is to protect the people that the wearer comes into contact with. This disease can have up to a two week incubation period during that time the person can spread the disease, even though they do not feel it themselves. Even a simple bandanna will greatly reduce the particulate matter if one speaks, sneezes or coughs.

That's what they're saying now to dance around the fact that they lied in the first place. The concept of "wear a mask to protect others, not yourself" is part of that tap dance. Frankly, it's something George Orwell would have put into a novel.

"Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do."

Doctors and nurses coming into contact with covid-19 wear N-95 masks to protect themselves. I have a small business that brings the public right into my home. I also want to protect myself and my family, not merely to protect others. There is nothing morally wrong with wanting to protect myself and my family.

Everyone who works in a business that brings them into contact with the public is also rightfully concerned about protecting themselves and their families--they also deserve N-95 masks.
 
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That's what they're saying now to dance around the fact that they lied in the first place. The concept of "wear a mask to protect others, not yourself" is part of that tap dance. Frankly, it's something George Orwell would have put into a novel.

"Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do."

Doctors and nurses coming into contact with covid-19 wear N-95 masks to protect themselves. I have a small business that brings the public right into my home. I also want to protect myself and my family, not merely to protect others. There is nothing morally wrong with wanting to protect myself and my family.

Everyone who works in a business that brings them into contact with the public is also rightfully concerned about protecting themselves and their families--they also deserve N-95 masks.
No, the problem was at first was that there was a shortage of masks of all types. The concern was that hospitals etc. would run out. And facts are facts. We are having a severe resurgence of the disease and Europe is not. The main difference is the wearing of masks.

And if you bring people into your home the best way to protect you and yours is to require every visitor to wear a mask.
 
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RDKirk

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No, the problem was at first was that there was a shortage of masks of all types. The concern was that hospitals etc. would run out. And facts are facts. We are having a severe resurgence of the disease and Europe is not. The main difference is the wearing of masks.

My point is that if the medical experts had said at the outset, "Everyone should be wearing masks"--which they knew even then--the paucity of masks could have been rectified by now.

And if you bring people into your home the best way to protect you and yours is to require every visitor to wear a mask.

And I'll be wearing something better than a bandanna, because I want to protect myself as well as possible.
 
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My point is that if the medical experts had said at the outset, "Everyone should be wearing masks"--which they knew even then--the paucity of masks could have been rectified by now.



And I'll be wearing something better than a bandanna, because I want to protect myself as well as possible.
Perhaps. And one thing that this disease has done is to educate us about masks. Claiming that the narrative changed and that means that they lied is an error. They simply had healthcare workers as their number one priority at that time. And go ahead, wear your mask. It may give you some protection, but it is better to get the infection at its source. That means stopping it from the people that are infected but do not know it. If someone comes into your house on business, make them wear a mask. I am not criticizing you for wearing a mask for your own protection. But even more important than you wearing a mask is making sure that people that come into contact with you wear a mask as well.

And as I said we are still learning how and why masks work. Here is a high tech video that shows how masks work using Schlieren photography. You can see the currents of air as they are exhaled:

 
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eclipsenow

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That's what they're saying now to dance around the fact that they lied in the first place. The concept of "wear a mask to protect others, not yourself" is part of that tap dance. Frankly, it's something George Orwell would have put into a novel.
It seriously isn't.
It works.
If everyone wore cheap surgical masks when going out then it would slow the spread and save lives! Add in basic handwashing hygiene and it might slow the replication rate under 1.
You could have one for each day of the week, for reuse purposes. Use them for a month and then replace them.
 
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