WHAT HAPPENS TO THE UNREPENTANT WICKED AFTER THE 2ND COMING?

LoveGodsWord

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That's right! There are indeed NO SECOND CHANCES FOR THE UNREPENTANT WICKED. They cannot avoid their fate. Their sin-loving false identities will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire...and they will be RAISED TO LIFE ANEW.
Are you seriously trying to claim that there is a third resurrection now and the unrepentant wicked after the second death in the lake of fire are resurrected to eternal life after God tortures them into repentance to following him? Goodness that does not sound like the God of love I know. So please show me the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked are raised to life after the second death in the lake of fire and receive eternal life?
You want evidence? Look to the fruits of the 'holy fire treatment' in Revelation, fellow:
Yes please. That is what was asked in the previous section. Please show me the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked are raised to life after the second death in the lake of fire and receive eternal life?
Nations come as enemies (20:8), then return as friends (21:24) Nations are consumed (20:9), then arise again (21:24)
Unbelievers hurt by the second death (2:11, 20:14), then healed by the leaves of the tree of life (22:2)
Men go in sinful (21:8, 22:15), then emerge as overcomers welcome into heaven (Rev 22:14, 21:25)
Sinners go in cursed (21:8), then come out blessed (22:3).
Robes now impure and dirty (21:25), then washed white (22:14)
Death goes in (20:14), Life comes out (Rev 22:17).
And what happens in the interim? 'Behold I am making all things anew' (Rev 21:5).
Never forget sir, that God has pledged His word to save all mankind, and His word shall not return void.
I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10)
And the Book of Revelation contains the revelation of the method: by Grace, through Faith, in Christ. Now will you sing this song?
And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:3-4)
See how it is with God that all things work together for the good?
There is not one scripture you have provided here that says that the unrepentant wicked are raised to life after the second death in the lake of fire and receive eternal life. You have taken scripture divorced of context but let's show why...

The context of REVELATION 20:9 is that the saints and those who did not receive the mark of the beast who are partakers of the first resurrection reigning with Christ 1000 years *REVELATION 20:4-6; JOHN 5:28-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 4:16-17. Those who are active after the 1000 years are the unrepentant wicked being brought back to life to battle against the Saints who receive the second death *REVELATION 20:5-6. It is those of the first resurrection (before the 1000 years) or the Saints that do not receive the second death *REVELATION 20:6. The unrepentant wicked are those who receive the second resurrection and the death in the lake of fire *REVELATION 20:5-10; REVELATION 20:13-15; REVELATION 21:7-8.

You also quoted REVELATION 21:24 that says.. And the nations of them WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

This is talking about the SAVED not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. The CONTEXT of this chapter once more is REVELATION 21:7-8 that says...[7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. [8], But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Once again with the context added back you can see this is saying the opposite of what your saying. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second death not eternal life.

...........

So nope the scriptures you provide here do not teach that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. The context you have left out shows that they are partakers of the second resurrection and the second death. Context matters and it shows why your interpretation of scripture here is in error.

None of the scriptures you have provided out of context say that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming dear friend. Your adding to the book of Revelation (please read REVELATION 22:19) what it does not teach as shown above by adding the context back that you have left out.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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Shrewd Manager

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Are you seriously trying to claim that there is a third resurrection now and the unrepentant wicked after the second death in the lake of fire are resurrected to eternal life after God tortures them into repentance to following him? Goodness that does not sound like the God of love I know.

I didn't expect a response exhibiting a high level of fidelity to what I actually wrote, and so wasn't disappointed.

Does the 'God of love' (goodness gracious me) who you know so well stop ppl from falling off cliffs? Or does he love them sooooo much he'll throw down banana peels (in the form of sin and the devil) as they blunder blindly towards their ruin?

That sounds more like the devil incarnate, full of evil tricks and machinations, deceit and manipulation, vice and dead men's bones.

You see, a 'God of love' cannot preside over the wholesale destruction of His creation without doing something about it. That's called 'compassion', and it leads to 'mercy' and divine action in the form of salvation, deliverance, restoration and renovation.

Just how it is, doesn't require any special knowledge or pleadings.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I didn't expect a response exhibiting a high level of fidelity to what I actually wrote, and so wasn't disappointed.

Does the 'God of love' (goodness gracious me) who you know so well stop ppl from falling off cliffs? Or does he love them sooooo much he'll throw down banana peels (in the form of sin and the devil) as they blunder blindly towards their ruin?

That sounds more like the devil incarnate, full of evil tricks and machinations, deceit and manipulation, vice and dead men's bones.

You see, a 'God of love' cannot preside over the wholesale destruction of His creation without doing something about it. That's called 'compassion', and it leads to 'mercy' and divine action in the form of salvation, deliverance, restoration and renovation.

Just how it is, doesn't require any special knowledge or pleadings.

I am sorry dear Shrewd, but my fidelity is not to you but to God and His Word. Perhaps you need to consider the context you left out of the scriptures you provided dear friend? The scripture contexts have been provided in the post above yours and when provided prove your interpretation of them is in error. Your response is to ignore this post and micro quote it without addressing anything in it. They are God's Words not mine and have only been provided in love and as a help for you. You are free to beleive as you wish. I would suggest you may want to consider the meaning of REVELATION 22:18-19. Sorry dear friend the context you have left out disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures. My prayer is that you may receive God's Word and the corrections provided and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear as it will be our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48.
 
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Tim Ray

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I didn't expect a response exhibiting a high level of fidelity to what I actually wrote, and so wasn't disappointed.

Does the 'God of love' (goodness gracious me) who you know so well stop ppl from falling off cliffs? Or does he love them sooooo much he'll throw down banana peels (in the form of sin and the devil) as they blunder blindly towards their ruin?

That sounds more like the devil incarnate, full of evil tricks and machinations, deceit and manipulation, vice and dead men's bones.

You see, a 'God of love' cannot preside over the wholesale destruction of His creation without doing something about it. That's called 'compassion', and it leads to 'mercy' and divine action in the form of salvation, deliverance, restoration and renovation.

Just how it is, doesn't require any special knowledge or pleadings.

Shrewd, Please consider the following.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

Soon, billions of people will be forced by dire circumstances to seriously contemplate God’s love and God’s wrath. Earth is rapidly approaching a rendezvous with God’s wrath, and now is the time to consider the harmony that operates within God’s love and wrath. God is not internally conflicted. His love and justice operate in perfect harmony, and this harmony is not difficult to understand if a person is willing to consider all that the Bible has to say about these two matters.

John 3:16 may be one of the most popular verses in the Bible, but very few people realize that it describes two different levels of God’s love, which makes a very interesting study. God deals with mankind on two distinct levels: One is “corporate love” and the other is “love for individuals.” Sometimes God’s actions on one level make His action appear inconsistent when viewed from the other level, so a closer look at these issues may help alleviate the confusion.

God is Angry when People or Nations Corporately Violate His Moral Laws
The Bible declares that God, a God of love, destroyed all but eight people with a flood in Noah’s day. (Genesis 6-9) The Bible also declares that God, a God of love, will destroy every wicked person at the end of the thousand years. (Revelation 20) These actions seem completely inconsistent with a God of love. It may surprise you that God’s omnipotent and omniscient character of love does not respond with the same type of impatience and anger that humans do. God does get angry (Deuteronomy 32:22; Hebrews 3:11), but the basis for His indignation is never self-centered. Corporately speaking, God’s anger is aroused when a majority of people in a city or nation openly and defiantly violate the moral values necessary for the well being of society. God hates wickedness. (1 Corinthians 6:9,10) He becomes especially angry when lawlessness and immoral conduct reach a point where the oncoming generation (that is, innocent children) have no choice but to experience the deadly and painful consequences of their fathers’ sins. (See Exodus 20:5 and Jeremiah 32:17-19.)

The curse of sin is inescapable. History reveals that no nation or civilization can save itself from the slippery slope of moral degeneracy. It is just a matter of time before a majority of people within a city or nation will fail to exalt or heed righteous counsel. When this occurs, God’s wrath is aroused because He knows that future generations will be ruined from birth. (Genesis 18:20; Jonah 12:2; Colossians 3:5,6) Even though the city of Nineveh temporarily repented of its wickedness after Jonah warned them of God’s coming wrath, the Ninevites eventually returned to their wicked ways (Nahum 1:14) and God responded by sending King Nebuchadnezzar to destroy them. God also used Nebuchadnezzar as “His servant” to destroy Israel, His own people. (Jeremiah 25:9)

God’s intimate view of man’s behavior and moral degeneracy (1 Kings 16:7) explains why a God of love required ancient Israel to kill every man, woman, child, and all livestock belonging to the Amalekites. (1 Samuel 15:3) When nations become hopelessly evil and defiant, God may first send “redemptive” judgments to see if the people will repent. (Ezekiel 14:12-21) If the people will not repent, God either destroys them Himself or raises up a destroyer to eliminate them from Earth. This truly is an act of love so that future generations can live and enjoy the land previously occupied by a decadent and degenerate people. (Leviticus 18:24,25) Innocent people may perish in these corporate events, but this does not mean that all are eternally lost! The Bible indicates that Rahab, the prostitute, was saved when Jericho was destroyed. (See James 2:25.) The Bible indicates that Daniel and some of his friends were saved from death when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem. (Daniel 1) However, the Bible also indicates that sometimes God’s people perish as a result or consequence of His wrath! (Revelation 6:9-11; 17:6)

Unfortunately, corporately speaking, children rarely rise to a higher, more noble standard of conduct than that of their parents. Children may have more materialistic wealth, but seldom do they embrace a higher standard of moral conduct. Man’s nature is sinful and attracted to rebellion and wickedness. Each generation of teens push the envelope of decency, and each generation delights in greater rebellion. As generations come and go, each generation becomes more ignorant of God’s will, and then it insults God with greater indifference and degeneracy than their parents did. This slippery slope leads each successive generation into greater wickedness.

When we violate God’s design for living, the suffering index increases, and agony and death occur. There comes a point within man’s misery where God’s patience runs out and He takes matters into His own hands by cauterizing the cancer of sin. Ironically, what God is unable to achieve through patience and longsuffering with individuals, He can sometimes achieve through His wrath. (2 Peter 2) It is so important to properly understand both levels of God’s love. In His love, God does all He can to save the maximum number of individuals, and at appropriate times, He must “prune back” the curse of sin so that the people of Earth will not self-destruct or drown in wickedness.

Does God Protect His Saints from His Wrath?
Many Christians believe that God protects His saints from persecution and suffering. This idea is “theological ear candy.” Beginning with Abel, scan down through the centuries of recorded history, review the persecution of God’s people, and you will find many biblical and present day examples of persecution and death of Christians. Under the spotlight of all this evidence, how can anyone believe that God will shield His saints? Jesus told His disciples, “. . . ‘No servant is greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.’ . . . . All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.”(John 15:20; 16:1,2) Did you know that the traditional understanding is that nine of the twelve disciples were martyred for their faith?

The book of Daniel indicates that God handed “His saints” over to the little horn power for 1,260 years (538-1798) of persecution. (Daniel 7:25) The book of Revelation indicates that many saints will perish during the Great Tribulation. “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. . . This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Then I heard a voice from heaven say, ‘Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.’ ” (Revelation 6:9; 14:12,13)

God may have His own reasons why He allows His saints to be persecuted and put to death, but I will offer two reasons I believe are important. First, persecution and hardship for Christ’s sake separates the sheep from the goats, the “wannabes” from the committed. When faithfulness to God and His commandments comes with a serious price, only those who are wealthy in the currency of salvific faith are not ashamed or afraid to pay the price. (See Daniel 3 and Mark 8:34-37.) Second, God uses His suffering saints to demonstrate to unbelievers the importance of His Word and the reality of His sustaining grace. When unbelievers see the suffering that God’s saints are willing to endure because of their faith in God, they are forced to witness God’s presence and His sustaining grace within His suffering people. This is the most powerful testimony that a human being can give, and God allows His saints to suffer at times so that He might save many unbelievers.

The Bible teaches that God has three types of wrath which are outlined in the following paragraphs:

1. Redemptive and Destructive Judgments: We have discussed how persistent rebellion and degenerate behavior causes God’s wrath. When the limits of God’s patience are reached, He deals with rebellion. His wrath sometimes comes in two phases. First, there are redemptive judgments and if they are not effective, He sends destructive judgments. We find both phases of God’s wrath in the book of Revelation. The seven trumpets are seven redemptive judgments and the seven bowls are seven destructive judgments.

2. The Consequences for Wrong Doing: If we ignorantly or willfully violate a physical or moral law, an injurious consequence follows. This consequence is called “wrath.” Paul wrote, “Because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.” (Romans 4:15) If a man accidentally falls off of the roof while cleaning the gutters, he will likely suffer some injury (a form of wrath) because the law of gravity will propel him toward the ground with enough force to break his neck and other bones.

If a man engages in adultery (violating the seventh commandment), that man will suffer wrath when his spouse learns of his wrong doing. Of course, adulterers may try to cover up their transgression to avoid the wrath they are due, but sin will surely find them out. (Numbers 32:23) We reap what we sow. (Galatians 6:7) These two examples show that whether a physical or moral law is violated, injurious consequences follow and these consequences are a form of wrath.

3. The Penalty for Sin Is Eternal Death: When Adam and Eve were put in the Garden of Eden, they were placed under the obligation of law. God said, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Genesis 2:17, KJV, underline mine)

Adam and Eve were to be executed on the very day they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree because the penalty for sin is death. (Note: The death of Adam and Eve was stayed because the Father accepted the offer of Jesus to mediate for man and die in man’s place. This stay of execution will be lifted at the end of the 1,000 years and after justly suffering for their wicked deeds, the wicked will be put to death.)

This may seem strange, but the penalty for sin is death by execution. Jesus demonstrated this penalty by dying on the cross. Every sacrificial lamb that died in the temple service also demonstrated this truth. These lambs could not die of natural causes. Jesus did not die of natural causes. The death that is common to all mankind at the present time IS NOT the penalty for sin. Instead, death from accidents, old age, and disease is a consequence of sin (wrath #2).

The penalty for sin (wrath #3) will be imposed upon the wicked at the end of the 1,000 years when God executes the wicked with fire. Because the penalty for sin is death by execution, Jesus was executed on the cross. (1 Thessalonians 2:14,15) Other than Jesus who became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), no wicked person has yet experienced the penalty for sin (wrath #3).

For God So Loved the World
In review, God has three types of wrath: Divine judgments (redemptive and destructive); the consequences for wrong doing; and the penalty for wrong doing. I believe we need to know there are three distinct types of wrath because God wants everyone to know that all of His faithful children will escape the penalty for sin. This is what Paul meant when he wrote: “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath [execution for our sins] but to receive salvation [eternal life] through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us [He was executed in our place] so that, whether we are awake or asleep [in the grave], we may live together with him.” (1 Thessalonians 5:9,10, insertions mine) “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath [the penalty for sin] through him!” (Romans 5:9, insertions mine)

I hope that you can see that these verses do not support the notion of Christians leaving Earth before God’s wrath begins. On the contrary, the book of Revelation indicates several times that the saints of God will be on Earth during the Great Tribulation and for the two reasons presented earlier, they will experience persecution and wrath during the Great Tribulation. Hopefully, the following texts will now make more sense in light of the information we have covered:

“He [the beast] was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. . . . If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. . . .This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.” (Revelation 13:7, 10; 14:12, insertion mine)

Now that we have considered that God has two levels of love and three kinds of wrath, I hope John 3:16 shines brighter than ever before. “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not [eternally] perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16, insertion mine) Think about this, God loved the world enough to give us His Son and the words, “whoever believes in Him” refers to individuals, like you and me.
 
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Tim Ray

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Are you seriously trying to claim that there is a third resurrection now and the unrepentant wicked after the second death in the lake of fire are resurrected to eternal life after God tortures them into repentance to following him? Goodness that does not sound like the God of love I know. So please show me the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked are raised to life after the second death in the lake of fire and receive eternal life?

Yes please. That is what was asked in the previous section. Please show me the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked are raised to life after the second death in the lake of fire and receive eternal life?

There is not one scripture you have provided here that says that the unrepentant wicked are raised to life after the second death in the lake of fire and receive eternal life. You have taken scripture divorced of context but let's show why...

The context of REVELATION 20:9 is that the saints and those who did not receive the mark of the beast who are partakers of the first resurrection reigning with Christ 1000 years *REVELATION 20:4-6; JOHN 5:28-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 4:16-17. Those who are active after the 1000 years are the unrepentant wicked being brought back to life to battle against the Saints who receive the second death *REVELATION 20:5-6. It is those of the first resurrection (before the 1000 years) or the Saints that do not receive the second death *REVELATION 20:6. The unrepentant wicked are those who receive the second resurrection and the death in the lake of fire *REVELATION 20:5-10; REVELATION 20:13-15; REVELATION 21:7-8.

You also quoted REVELATION 21:24 that says.. And the nations of them WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

This is talking about the SAVED not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. The CONTEXT of this chapter once more is REVELATION 21:7-8 that says...[7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. [8], But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Once again with the context added back you can see this is saying the opposite of what your saying. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second death not eternal life.

...........

So nope the scriptures you provide here do not teach that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. The context you have left out shows that they are partakers of the second resurrection and the second death. Context matters and it shows why your interpretation of scripture here is in error.

None of the scriptures you have provided out of context say that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming dear friend. Your adding to the book of Revelation (please read REVELATION 22:19) what it does not teach as shown above by adding the context back that you have left out.

Hope this is helpful.
Are you seriously trying to claim that there is a third resurrection now and the unrepentant wicked after the second death in the lake of fire are resurrected to eternal life after God tortures them into repentance to following him? Goodness that does not sound like the God of love I know. So please show me the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked are raised to life after the second death in the lake of fire and receive eternal life?

Yes please. That is what was asked in the previous section. Please show me the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked are raised to life after the second death in the lake of fire and receive eternal life?

There is not one scripture you have provided here that says that the unrepentant wicked are raised to life after the second death in the lake of fire and receive eternal life. You have taken scripture divorced of context but let's show why...

The context of REVELATION 20:9 is that the saints and those who did not receive the mark of the beast who are partakers of the first resurrection reigning with Christ 1000 years *REVELATION 20:4-6; JOHN 5:28-29; 1 THESSALONIANS 4:16-17. Those who are active after the 1000 years are the unrepentant wicked being brought back to life to battle against the Saints who receive the second death *REVELATION 20:5-6. It is those of the first resurrection (before the 1000 years) or the Saints that do not receive the second death *REVELATION 20:6. The unrepentant wicked are those who receive the second resurrection and the death in the lake of fire *REVELATION 20:5-10; REVELATION 20:13-15; REVELATION 21:7-8.

You also quoted REVELATION 21:24 that says.. And the nations of them WHICH ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

This is talking about the SAVED not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. The CONTEXT of this chapter once more is REVELATION 21:7-8 that says...[7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. [8], But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Once again with the context added back you can see this is saying the opposite of what your saying. The unrepentant wicked partake of the second death not eternal life.

...........

So nope the scriptures you provide here do not teach that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. The context you have left out shows that they are partakers of the second resurrection and the second death. Context matters and it shows why your interpretation of scripture here is in error.

None of the scriptures you have provided out of context say that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming dear friend. Your adding to the book of Revelation (please read REVELATION 22:19) what it does not teach as shown above by adding the context back that you have left out.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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Tim Ray

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That's right! There are indeed NO SECOND CHANCES FOR THE UNREPENTANT WICKED. They cannot avoid their fate. Their sin-loving false identities will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire...and they will be RAISED TO LIFE ANEW.

You want evidence? Look to the fruits of the 'holy fire treatment' in Revelation, fellow:
  • Nations are consumed (20:9), then arise again (21:24)
  • Nations come as enemies (20:8), then return as friends (21:24)
  • Unbelievers hurt by the second death (2:11, 20:14), then healed by the leaves of the tree of life (22:2)
  • Men go in sinful (21:8, 22:15), then emerge as overcomers welcome into heaven (Rev 22:14, 21:25)
  • Sinners go in cursed (21:8), then come out blessed (22:3).
  • Robes now impure and dirty (21:25), then washed white (22:14)
  • Death goes in (20:14), Life comes out (Rev 22:17).
And what happens in the interim? 'Behold I am making all things anew' (Rev 21:5).

Never forget sir, that God has pledged His word to save all mankind, and His word shall not return void.

I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10)

And the Book of Revelation contains the revelation of the method: by Grace, through Faith, in Christ.

Now will you sing this song?

And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:3-4)

See how it is with God that all things work together for the good?
 
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Tim Ray

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Shrewd, if I understand you correctly then it appears you believe in predestination. It is my belief that God predestines events, but not the free choice of individuals. To raise the wicked from the second death and bring them into His kingdom without their choosing violates Gods love He bestowed on his creation by giving us free choice. Parents who love their children do not force them into choices, for that just fosters rebellion. Too, if it were as you believe then the wages of sin would not be death in the end. Rather, both who lived by faith and those who did not would have eternal life. This does not correspond with scripture.

"Never forget sir, that God has pledged His word to save all mankind, and His word shall not return void...
And the Book of Revelation contains the revelation of the method: by Grace, through Faith, in Christ," Shrewd, this is an earlier quote of yours.
It seems very clear by the last portion of your quote of which I'm sure most christians agree and understand, that those who have no faith which has been demonstrated by ones actions toward God, can't enter His kingdom.

 
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LoveGodsWord

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Shrewd, Please consider the following.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

Soon, billions of people will be forced by dire circumstances to seriously contemplate God’s love and God’s wrath. Earth is rapidly approaching a rendezvous with God’s wrath, and now is the time to consider the harmony that operates within God’s love and wrath. God is not internally conflicted. His love and justice operate in perfect harmony, and this harmony is not difficult to understand if a person is willing to consider all that the Bible has to say about these two matters.

John 3:16 may be one of the most popular verses in the Bible, but very few people realize that it describes two different levels of God’s love, which makes a very interesting study. God deals with mankind on two distinct levels: One is “corporate love” and the other is “love for individuals.” Sometimes God’s actions on one level make His action appear inconsistent when viewed from the other level, so a closer look at these issues may help alleviate the confusion.

God is Angry when People or Nations Corporately Violate His Moral Laws
The Bible declares that God, a God of love, destroyed all but eight people with a flood in Noah’s day. (Genesis 6-9) The Bible also declares that God, a God of love, will destroy every wicked person at the end of the thousand years. (Revelation 20) These actions seem completely inconsistent with a God of love. It may surprise you that God’s omnipotent and omniscient character of love does not respond with the same type of impatience and anger that humans do. God does get angry (Deuteronomy 32:22; Hebrews 3:11), but the basis for His indignation is never self-centered. Corporately speaking, God’s anger is aroused when a majority of people in a city or nation openly and defiantly violate the moral values necessary for the well being of society. God hates wickedness. (1 Corinthians 6:9,10) He becomes especially angry when lawlessness and immoral conduct reach a point where the oncoming generation (that is, innocent children) have no choice but to experience the deadly and painful consequences of their fathers’ sins. (See Exodus 20:5 and Jeremiah 32:17-19.)

The curse of sin is inescapable. History reveals that no nation or civilization can save itself from the slippery slope of moral degeneracy. It is just a matter of time before a majority of people within a city or nation will fail to exalt or heed righteous counsel. When this occurs, God’s wrath is aroused because He knows that future generations will be ruined from birth. (Genesis 18:20; Jonah 12:2; Colossians 3:5,6) Even though the city of Nineveh temporarily repented of its wickedness after Jonah warned them of God’s coming wrath, the Ninevites eventually returned to their wicked ways (Nahum 1:14) and God responded by sending King Nebuchadnezzar to destroy them. God also used Nebuchadnezzar as “His servant” to destroy Israel, His own people. (Jeremiah 25:9)

God’s intimate view of man’s behavior and moral degeneracy (1 Kings 16:7) explains why a God of love required ancient Israel to kill every man, woman, child, and all livestock belonging to the Amalekites. (1 Samuel 15:3) When nations become hopelessly evil and defiant, God may first send “redemptive” judgments to see if the people will repent. (Ezekiel 14:12-21) If the people will not repent, God either destroys them Himself or raises up a destroyer to eliminate them from Earth. This truly is an act of love so that future generations can live and enjoy the land previously occupied by a decadent and degenerate people. (Leviticus 18:24,25) Innocent people may perish in these corporate events, but this does not mean that all are eternally lost! The Bible indicates that Rahab, the prostitute, was saved when Jericho was destroyed. (See James 2:25.) The Bible indicates that Daniel and some of his friends were saved from death when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem. (Daniel 1) However, the Bible also indicates that sometimes God’s people perish as a result or consequence of His wrath! (Revelation 6:9-11; 17:6)

Unfortunately, corporately speaking, children rarely rise to a higher, more noble standard of conduct than that of their parents. Children may have more materialistic wealth, but seldom do they embrace a higher standard of moral conduct. Man’s nature is sinful and attracted to rebellion and wickedness. Each generation of teens push the envelope of decency, and each generation delights in greater rebellion. As generations come and go, each generation becomes more ignorant of God’s will, and then it insults God with greater indifference and degeneracy than their parents did. This slippery slope leads each successive generation into greater wickedness.

When we violate God’s design for living, the suffering index increases, and agony and death occur. There comes a point within man’s misery where God’s patience runs out and He takes matters into His own hands by cauterizing the cancer of sin. Ironically, what God is unable to achieve through patience and longsuffering with individuals, He can sometimes achieve through His wrath. (2 Peter 2) It is so important to properly understand both levels of God’s love. In His love, God does all He can to save the maximum number of individuals, and at appropriate times, He must “prune back” the curse of sin so that the people of Earth will not self-destruct or drown in wickedness.

Does God Protect His Saints from His Wrath?
Many Christians believe that God protects His saints from persecution and suffering. This idea is “theological ear candy.” Beginning with Abel, scan down through the centuries of recorded history, review the persecution of God’s people, and you will find many biblical and present day examples of persecution and death of Christians. Under the spotlight of all this evidence, how can anyone believe that God will shield His saints? Jesus told His disciples, “. . . ‘No servant is greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.’ . . . . All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.”(John 15:20; 16:1,2) Did you know that the traditional understanding is that nine of the twelve disciples were martyred for their faith?

The book of Daniel indicates that God handed “His saints” over to the little horn power for 1,260 years (538-1798) of persecution. (Daniel 7:25) The book of Revelation indicates that many saints will perish during the Great Tribulation. “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. . . This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Then I heard a voice from heaven say, ‘Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.’ ” (Revelation 6:9; 14:12,13)

God may have His own reasons why He allows His saints to be persecuted and put to death, but I will offer two reasons I believe are important. First, persecution and hardship for Christ’s sake separates the sheep from the goats, the “wannabes” from the committed. When faithfulness to God and His commandments comes with a serious price, only those who are wealthy in the currency of salvific faith are not ashamed or afraid to pay the price. (See Daniel 3 and Mark 8:34-37.) Second, God uses His suffering saints to demonstrate to unbelievers the importance of His Word and the reality of His sustaining grace. When unbelievers see the suffering that God’s saints are willing to endure because of their faith in God, they are forced to witness God’s presence and His sustaining grace within His suffering people. This is the most powerful testimony that a human being can give, and God allows His saints to suffer at times so that He might save many unbelievers.

The Bible teaches that God has three types of wrath which are outlined in the following paragraphs:

1. Redemptive and Destructive Judgments: We have discussed how persistent rebellion and degenerate behavior causes God’s wrath. When the limits of God’s patience are reached, He deals with rebellion. His wrath sometimes comes in two phases. First, there are redemptive judgments and if they are not effective, He sends destructive judgments. We find both phases of God’s wrath in the book of Revelation. The seven trumpets are seven redemptive judgments and the seven bowls are seven destructive judgments.

2. The Consequences for Wrong Doing: If we ignorantly or willfully violate a physical or moral law, an injurious consequence follows. This consequence is called “wrath.” Paul wrote, “Because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.” (Romans 4:15) If a man accidentally falls off of the roof while cleaning the gutters, he will likely suffer some injury (a form of wrath) because the law of gravity will propel him toward the ground with enough force to break his neck and other bones.

If a man engages in adultery (violating the seventh commandment), that man will suffer wrath when his spouse learns of his wrong doing. Of course, adulterers may try to cover up their transgression to avoid the wrath they are due, but sin will surely find them out. (Numbers 32:23) We reap what we sow. (Galatians 6:7) These two examples show that whether a physical or moral law is violated, injurious consequences follow and these consequences are a form of wrath.

3. The Penalty for Sin Is Eternal Death: When Adam and Eve were put in the Garden of Eden, they were placed under the obligation of law. God said, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Genesis 2:17, KJV, underline mine)

Adam and Eve were to be executed on the very day they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree because the penalty for sin is death. (Note: The death of Adam and Eve was stayed because the Father accepted the offer of Jesus to mediate for man and die in man’s place. This stay of execution will be lifted at the end of the 1,000 years and after justly suffering for their wicked deeds, the wicked will be put to death.)

This may seem strange, but the penalty for sin is death by execution. Jesus demonstrated this penalty by dying on the cross. Every sacrificial lamb that died in the temple service also demonstrated this truth. These lambs could not die of natural causes. Jesus did not die of natural causes. The death that is common to all mankind at the present time IS NOT the penalty for sin. Instead, death from accidents, old age, and disease is a consequence of sin (wrath #2).

The penalty for sin (wrath #3) will be imposed upon the wicked at the end of the 1,000 years when God executes the wicked with fire. Because the penalty for sin is death by execution, Jesus was executed on the cross. (1 Thessalonians 2:14,15) Other than Jesus who became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), no wicked person has yet experienced the penalty for sin (wrath #3).

For God So Loved the World
In review, God has three types of wrath: Divine judgments (redemptive and destructive); the consequences for wrong doing; and the penalty for wrong doing. I believe we need to know there are three distinct types of wrath because God wants everyone to know that all of His faithful children will escape the penalty for sin. This is what Paul meant when he wrote: “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath [execution for our sins] but to receive salvation [eternal life] through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us [He was executed in our place] so that, whether we are awake or asleep [in the grave], we may live together with him.” (1 Thessalonians 5:9,10, insertions mine) “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath [the penalty for sin] through him!” (Romans 5:9, insertions mine)

I hope that you can see that these verses do not support the notion of Christians leaving Earth before God’s wrath begins. On the contrary, the book of Revelation indicates several times that the saints of God will be on Earth during the Great Tribulation and for the two reasons presented earlier, they will experience persecution and wrath during the Great Tribulation. Hopefully, the following texts will now make more sense in light of the information we have covered:

“He [the beast] was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. . . . If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. . . .This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.” (Revelation 13:7, 10; 14:12, insertion mine)

Now that we have considered that God has two levels of love and three kinds of wrath, I hope John 3:16 shines brighter than ever before. “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not [eternally] perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16, insertion mine) Think about this, God loved the world enough to give us His Son and the words, “whoever believes in Him” refers to individuals, like you and me.

Hello Tim, nice to meet you :wave:. Great posts btw thanks for sharing your view and great to see someone showing why from the scriptures.

God bless
 
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In His love, God does all He can to save the maximum number of individuals, and at appropriate times, He must “prune back” the curse of sin so that the people of Earth will not self-destruct or drown in wickedness.

Well, if God does ALL HE CAN TO SAVE the many, then I have absolute faith that the many will indeed be saved. In fact, all are redeemed in Christ already. That's a big step in the right direction, isn't it Tim? God just needs to close it out from here. Or don't you think He's up to it?

Did you know that the traditional understanding is that nine of the twelve disciples were martyred for their faith?

I thought John was the only one who died a 'natural death' (I hear he's now been chalked up as Covid 19, but anyway).

God may have His own reasons why He allows His saints to be persecuted and put to death, but I will offer two reasons I believe are important. First, persecution and hardship for Christ’s sake separates the sheep from the goats, the “wannabes” from the committed. When faithfulness to God and His commandments comes with a serious price, only those who are wealthy in the currency of salvific faith are not ashamed or afraid to pay the price. (See Daniel 3 and Mark 8:34-37.) Second, God uses His suffering saints to demonstrate to unbelievers the importance of His Word and the reality of His sustaining grace. When unbelievers see the suffering that God’s saints are willing to endure because of their faith in God, they are forced to witness God’s presence and His sustaining grace within His suffering people. This is the most powerful testimony that a human being can give, and God allows His saints to suffer at times so that He might save many unbelievers.

Ok, and?

Adam and Eve were to be executed on the very day they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree because the penalty for sin is death. (Note: The death of Adam and Eve was stayed because the Father accepted the offer of Jesus to mediate for man and die in man’s place. This stay of execution will be lifted at the end of the 1,000 years and after justly suffering for their wicked deeds, the wicked will be put to death.)

Hm, is that how it is?

This may seem strange, but the penalty for sin is death by execution. Jesus demonstrated this penalty by dying on the cross. Every sacrificial lamb that died in the temple service also demonstrated this truth. These lambs could not die of natural causes. Jesus did not die of natural causes. The death that is common to all mankind at the present time IS NOT the penalty for sin. Instead, death from accidents, old age, and disease is a consequence of sin (wrath #2).

The penalty for sin (wrath #3) will be imposed upon the wicked at the end of the 1,000 years when God executes the wicked with fire. Because the penalty for sin is death by execution, Jesus was executed on the cross. (1 Thessalonians 2:14,15) Other than Jesus who became sin for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), no wicked person has yet experienced the penalty for sin (wrath #3).

You've got a system worked out, Tim.

I hope that you can see that these verses do not support the notion of Christians leaving Earth before God’s wrath begins.

Harpazo? Pre-trib or post-trib? Only joking, doesn't interest me.

Think about this, God loved the world enough to give us His Son and the words, “whoever believes in Him” refers to individuals, like you and me.

True, and ALL will come to believe in Him. That's the purpose of His wrath, Tim. It's not a case of 'Nations do bad, make Kong mad!'

Thank you Tim for taking the time to write this epistle and being so forthright with your insights. At the risk of being divisive I'll say that I don't think much of the 'systematic' approach because it reduces God to some kind of black box. Penalties, elections, outcomes. I wholeheartedly reject penal substitutionary atonement my friend. Adam is not waiting for eternal damnation.

My man, God is living, dynamic, spiritual, unlimited, supernatural, holy and perfect. The cross for me is the ultimate expression of the victory of true divine love over the forces of evil - it's God saying in effect, 'No matter how far evil goes to destroy you, I will always go further to save you'.

Now God doesn't swear too many oaths in the Bible. When He does, you'd better take it seriously (Heb 6:17, Num 30:2). Trust, right?

So when God proclaims His pledge that the whole world will turn to Him (Isa 45:23), and that covenantal oath is repeated (Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10), echoed everywhere (including Acts 3:21, Mt 19:28, Eph 1:10, 1 Cor 15:27) and finally revealed as the consummation (Rev 15:4, 21:5, 21:24-26, 22:2), you'd want to think carefully as to whether your theology can handle it. If not, which has to change?
 
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Shrewd, if I understand you correctly then it appears you believe in predestination. It is my belief that God predestines events, but not the free choice of individuals. To raise the wicked from the second death and bring them into His kingdom without their choosing violates Gods love He bestowed on his creation by giving us free choice. Parents who love their children do not force them into choices, for that just fosters rebellion. Too, if it were as you believe then the wages of sin would not be death in the end. Rather, both who lived by faith and those who did not would have eternal life. This does not correspond with scripture.

"Never forget sir, that God has pledged His word to save all mankind, and His word shall not return void...
And the Book of Revelation contains the revelation of the method: by Grace, through Faith, in Christ,"
Shrewd, this is an earlier quote of yours.
It seems very clear by the last portion of your quote of which I'm sure most christians agree and understand, that those who have no faith which has been demonstrated by ones actions toward God, can't enter His kingdom.

Oh well, the light still shineth Tim.
 
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I am sorry dear Shrewd, but my fidelity is not to you but to God and His Word. Perhaps you need to consider the context you left out of the scriptures you provided dear friend? The scripture contexts have been provided in the post above yours and when provided prove your interpretation of them is in error. Your response is to ignore this post and micro quote it without addressing anything in it. They are God's Words not mine and have only been provided in love and as a help for you. You are free to beleive as you wish. I would suggest you may want to consider the meaning of REVELATION 22:18-19. Sorry dear friend the context you have left out disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures. My prayer is that you may receive God's Word and the corrections provided and be blessed. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear as it will be our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48.

You're certainly strong in denying the unrepentant wicked will ever be saved there LGW. But what about the unrepentant 'not so bad' type, like the innocent rape/ murder victim (she blames God)? Or the atheist who died trying to save a drowning child? And what about the arrogant self-righteous holier-than-thou blind guide son of hell hypocrite pharisee type, will he or she be saved?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You're certainly strong in denying the unrepentant wicked will ever be saved there LGW. But what about the unrepentant 'not so bad' type, like the innocent rape/ murder victim (she blames God)? Or the atheist who died trying to save a drowning child? And what about the arrogant self-righteous holier-than-thou blind guide son of hell hypocrite pharisee type, will he or she be saved?
Indeed my faith is in the scriptures dear friend. It is God's Word not mine and I believe them. A good deed does not earn one's salvation which is a free gift for sinners who Jesus came to seek and save. These are those who believe God's Word and have been given the free gift of God's grace and is only received by the hand of faith from those who have been given a new heart to love.
 
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Indeed my faith is in the scriptures dear friend. It is God's Word not mine and I believe them. A good deed does not earn one's salvation which is a free gift for sinners who Jesus came to seek and save. These are those who believe God's Word and have been given the free gift of God's grace and is only received by the hand of faith from those who have been given a new heart to love.

So there's hope for everyone! Rejoicing in God's great covenant oath of universal salvation.
 
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Tim Ray

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Well, if God does ALL HE CAN TO SAVE the many, then I have absolute faith that the many will indeed be saved. In fact, all are redeemed in Christ already. That's a big step in the right direction, isn't it Tim? God just needs to close it out from here. Or don't you think He's up to it?



I thought John was the only one who died a 'natural death' (I hear he's now been chalked up as Covid 19, but anyway).



Ok, and?



Hm, is that how it is?



You've got a system worked out, Tim.



Harpazo? Pre-trib or post-trib? Only joking, doesn't interest me.



True, and ALL will come to believe in Him. That's the purpose of His wrath, Tim. It's not a case of 'Nations do bad, make Kong mad!'

Thank you Tim for taking the time to write this epistle and being so forthright with your insights. At the risk of being divisive I'll say that I don't think much of the 'systematic' approach because it reduces God to some kind of black box. Penalties, elections, outcomes. I wholeheartedly reject penal substitutionary atonement my friend. Adam is not waiting for eternal damnation.

My man, God is living, dynamic, spiritual, unlimited, supernatural, holy and perfect. The cross for me is the ultimate expression of the victory of true divine love over the forces of evil - it's God saying in effect, 'No matter how far evil goes to destroy you, I will always go further to save you'.

Now God doesn't swear too many oaths in the Bible. When He does, you'd better take it seriously (Heb 6:17, Num 30:2). Trust, right?

So when God proclaims His pledge that the whole world will turn to Him (Isa 45:23), and that covenantal oath is repeated (Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10), echoed everywhere (including Acts 3:21, Mt 19:28, Eph 1:10, 1 Cor 15:27) and finally revealed as the consummation (Rev 15:4, 21:5, 21:24-26, 22:2), you'd want to think carefully as to whether your theology can handle it. If not, which has to change?[/QUOTE

Shrewd, isn't it interesting how the understanding of God's word can be so very different for so many of us. I'm sure glad that God in the end will do what is right and just when He sets up His Kingdom. I hope we can agree on that much anyway.

I am going to work read through your texts given in the last paragraph with your mindset in mind. But I want to ask you a couple of questions here now.

1) I have always been aware of Christ and His offer of salvation all my life, 73 years. Your understanding that all/everyone and I'm assuming you mean the fallen angles as well, God in the end will save them all. I have never heard of such a belief. Is there an organized religion that teaches this?

2) I like the way you were able to highlight certain thoughts in my post then under those captions make your comments. Please if you would, inform me in very simple steps how one does that as I'm not yet able to navigate this forum.

Thanks.
 
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Hello Tim, nice to meet you :wave:. Great posts btw thanks for sharing your view and great to see someone showing why from the scriptures.

God bless
Thank you LoveGodsWord. I believe the content of what I posted, but the author was Larry Wilson. Have you read any of His books? Are you a first generation, second, or what Adventist? What was your situation with all the fires there last yr.?
 
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So there's hope for everyone! Rejoicing in God's great covenant oath of universal salvation.
Indeed dear friend but according to the scriptures this is conditional if (scriptures) one turns to God and receives Gods gift of salvation through faith, freely offered by God's dear son before the second coming

There is no more chances after the second coming when when it is proclaimed in heaven "He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy, let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.
Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is
" Revelation 22:11-12.

According to the scriptures the fate of the wicked are sealed no more second chances only the second death in the lake of fire because they rejected the gift of God's dear son and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God's grace not accepting Christs death for their sins will reap the wages and punishment for thier own sins *Romans 6:23.

According to the scriptures it does not look to good for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming.
*Hebrews 10:26-31; 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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LoveGodsWord 1st I am not disagreeing with you ok :)

I know people "Jewish" that live in NY that never heard of Yeshua/Jesus Christ and that was the year of 2000. So how is the world to know/believe what you posted (BIBLE) is the real truth? Fallen angels, there is no salvation for them. They know the truth. Seen Him in all His glory and power.

Now we man have only known sin first. They say there are about 4,200 different Religions in the world. So God is going to hold the world accountable to what He said to Israel? Everything Christ said was to His own first. Each verse you/we post whats the context? To what or whom is it directed at.

We can just talk about "Christian" and I can put in all the names of which we all know and.. gonna say "I am right your wrong"? Walk into Israel and tell them we know their God better then they do? I could have just expanded greatly in all this but.. I think you get/understand what I am getting at here. Do we say its ONLY if you believe John 3:16, Rom 10:9-10?

What I say next is not proof of anything.. just to me it is. When I was about 15 I asked Him "how can you send all these people to hell?" And He came right back with "For God so loved the world. Everyone gets a choice". How that happens I do not know. But I do know.. everyone gets a choice. I believe few will be lost vs most. Well who says most won't be saved? MAN.

Why do you think He said these signs shall follow them that believe? Because no other religions/gods can do that. So doubt started over time and look where we are today. For me without that...how is your God any different then the rest? Trust me these real questions.

There is a reason why Christ is the only savoir. Christ said.. if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. Most are blind. I pray I did not offend. If I did forgive me
 
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2) I like the way you were able to highlight certain thoughts in my post then under those captions make your comments. Please if you would, inform me in very simple steps how one does that as I'm not yet able to navigate this forum.

Hi Tim, yes in order to quote/ reply to a portion of a comment here you need to highlight that portion with your mouse, then you'll see the options Quote/ Reply come up. Select Reply and it will automatically drop that highlighted section into your comment box, where your cursor is. You can then type your reply. repeat the process as many times as necessary until you see the light of UNIVERSAL SALVATION - Praise the Lord!

Shrewd, isn't it interesting how the understanding of God's word can be so very different for so many of us. I'm sure glad that God in the end will do what is right and just when He sets up His Kingdom. I hope we can agree on that much anyway.
I am going to work read through your texts given in the last paragraph with your mindset in mind. But I want to ask you a couple of questions here now.

1) I have always been aware of Christ and His offer of salvation all my life, 73 years. Your understanding that all/everyone and I'm assuming you mean the fallen angles as well, God in the end will save them all. I have never heard of such a belief. Is there an organized religion that teaches this?

You're right, to say there's myriad Christian theologies is an understatement. I don't know of any churches that teach universal salvation, but I've been cast out from a few that don't. It has been noted by eminent scholars that universalism was the main soteriology/ eschatology of the early church. Gregory of Nyssa, Origen Adamantius and Clement of Alexandria were big name patristics who were all universalists.

Universalism/ restorationism can be a real challenge for those conditioned with the 'mindset' that only some (the elect) get saved and others (the many) are doomed. I feel blessed that I knew almost nothing of Christian doctrine at the time God opened the eyes and changed the heart.

God wants all mankind saved. He has the power to do it, through His righteous acts of grace and mercy. His enemies are spiritual, those forces that draw man away from Him, like sin the world and the devil. But He loves the world so as to send Jesus to save it from its own enslavement to sin and death. Sure, man has a choice, but fallen man will, like Israel, invariably choose unwisely. So a saviour is needed to free the slaves, liberate the captives, restore sight to the blind, raise the dead, heal the sick, make the lame walk...and so on. And what's more - his own people won't recognise him!

Jesus' mission is salvation. He is Salvation. The word of God is salvation. Jesus is the word made flesh. Salvation is the Omega plan, it's the destiny of all creation.

What does the Total Victory of Christ look like to you, Tim? Is it like a Roman triumph, where the vanquished kings and nations are forced to swear allegiance, waiting for a chance to rebel? Or is it greater, where the whole earth sees God's great and righteous works, the true gospel reveals the spirit, brings in faith, lifts the veil, and hearts and minds are transformed - every knee and every tongue, all sing in unison and eyes opened, 'give it up for God'!

Now that's a true and permanent victory - swords into plowshares, wolf lies down with lamb, rebellion overcome by love, death swallowed up in victory, trust and obedience given freely so as it was given us. All creatures loving Him as He loved us all first. Restored to His image. 'Behold', He says, 'I am making all things new'.

Doesn't mean it won't be a bitter pill to swallow for some. It could be the small scroll John eats in Rev 10:10 that tastes like honey but makes the stomach bitter. Those who refuse to repent through the Tribulation end up outside the ever-open Pearly Gates in the Lake of Fire, tormented in their evil mindsets, while the Spirit and the Bride encourage them, 'Come on, wash your robes in the lake and join us inside for the water of life, you're missing the good stuff!'

How long do you think they can hold out against full frontal assault of God's pure burning love presence that melts the heart and destroys the enemies, purifies the dross, burns away the tares? Who can stand? God has sworn an oath, remember. Even the Chief of Sinners was changed in a moment. Personally, I give the devil less than a week (noting time won't be the same in the new age when heaven and earth conjoin). So imagine that - when even the fallen angels repent in all truth and confess the name of Jesus! Dare to hope it may be so, my friend.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So when God proclaims His pledge that the whole world will turn to Him (Isa 45:23), and that covenantal oath is repeated (Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10), echoed everywhere (including Acts 3:21, Mt 19:28, Eph 1:10, 1 Cor 15:27) and finally revealed as the consummation (Rev 15:4, 21:5, 21:24-26, 22:2), you'd want to think carefully as to whether your theology can handle it. If not, which has to change?

The trouble is when we go through each of these scriptures as we did earlier in another thread on "Universalism" none of them say that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life but the second death after the second coming.

The teachings of Universalism is at contradiction to the rest of the bible and over 87+ scriptures in the OP linked that show that the unrepentant wicked are do not receive eternal life but are destroyed in the second death in the lake of fire.

Universalism contradicts the teachings of the bible and teaches the false doctrine that was first given to Eve in Eden from GENESIS 3:1-5.
 
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