I want to see timeline charts.....

TribulationSigns

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Take another look at the chart. 1290 days plus the 45 days is 1335 days.

The 70th week is 2520 days long. The great tribulation lasts the final 1335 days of that 2520 days.

200.gif


The new covenant in Christ is not found in Daniel 9. Because the resurrection of the messiah is not prophesied in Daniel 9, only his being cutoff.

You don't see Christ's new covenant in verse 27 is BECAUSE you did not link the "he" to the rest of context instead you inserted a third party AND comparing verse 27 with Scripture on how Christ confirmed the covenant. That's why you are blind thinking the verse is all about your antichrist, physical temple, nation Israel, etc. like the Jews of old.
 
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mkgal1

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Boy, how wrong you are! You have no common sense. In order for a covenant to be confirmed, one has to die so that the covenant becomes a force with His Blood. And that does not even last 7 years, right? :)
TS - please exercise your ability to post without flaming others.

No...it doesn't take 7 years for a person to die - so it seems another premise has to be considered in order to align with this passage about confirming a covenant for 7 years:

Daniel 9:27 ~ And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

ChrisGedge70weeks.png
 
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mkgal1

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Daniel 9:24 is clear that the seventy weeks are all about Jesus Christ and His People, Israel. More specifically, the whole congregation of Israel makes up of BOTH the Old Testament, and New Testament Elect. Jews first, then the Gentiles.

It is NOT about some evil prince against nation Israel.

Messiah the Prince... = Jesus Christ
Messiah be cut off... = Jesus Christ
Agreed
 
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TribulationSigns

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No...it doesn't take 7 years for a person to die - so it seems another premise has to be considered in order to align with this passage about confirming a covenant for 7 years:

Ahem... And your preterism-inspired chart is as bad as Douggg especially when you not only divided Daniel 9:26 into two dates apart of about 40 years, and then applied Daniel 9:27 back to the Cross when Christ confirmed a covenant.

For example, Daniel 9:26 talked about the cutoff of the Messiah the Prince that obviously took place at the Cross, and you have placed the part about the "people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" in 70AD. And THEN you went back to verse 27 and placed it at the Cross where Christ confirmed the covenant, the moment he was cut off? What's up with that?!
 
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mkgal1

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Ahem... And your preterism-inspired chart is as bad as Douggg especially when you not only divided Daniel 9:26 into two dates apart of about 40 years, and then applied Daniel 9:27 back to the Cross when Christ confirmed a covenant.
The chart I shared was created by our fellow poster here on CG - Christian Gedge. He doesn't consider himself a preterist. This timeline aligns with the teaching of the early church and the Orthodox church today.

Scripture lays out for us the three sets of time (7 + 62 + 1).
 
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TribulationSigns

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The chart I shared was created by our fellow poster here on CG - Christian Gedge. He doesn't consider himself a preterist. This timeline aligns with the teaching of the early church and the Orthodox church today.

Scripture lays out for us the three sets of time (7 + 62 + 1).

Then he is incorrect, preterist, or not. Your take on the second part of Daniel 9:26 you believe has to do with physical destruction of Jerusalem by Romans in 70AD is incorrect. Because you can't skip the cut off of the Messiah only to have 62nd week extended to 70AD if you will have the final week to be confirmed by Christ at the Cross BEFORE 62nd week can be fulfilled! That is confusion. You got the wrong people (Romans) and the wrong city and the sanctuary (physical Jerusalem) to begin with.
 
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Douggg

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Then he is incorrect, preterist, or not. Your take on the second part of Daniel 9:26 you believe has to do with physical destruction of Jerusalem by Romans in 70AD is incorrect. Because you can't skip the cut off of the Messiah only to have 62nd week extended to 70AD if you will have the final week to be confirmed by Christ at the Cross BEFORE 62nd week can be fulfilled! That is confusion. You got the wrong people (Romans) and the wrong city and the sanctuary (physical Jerusalem) to begin with.

The city is physical Jerusalem, and the right people are the Romans. What is not right is the failure to recognize there is a gap from the day the messiah is cutoff - until the prince who shall come confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

Jerusalem is a physical city, because Jerusalem is the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree. Something that someone can see and witness. 1967 Jerusalem back in the hand of the Jews.
 
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jgr

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You got the wrong people (Romans) and the wrong city and the sanctuary (physical Jerusalem) to begin with.

Both Romans and Jews qualify as "the people of the prince" (i.e. prince Messiah). The Romans were Messiah's agents of judgment and destruction. Many Jews were fully complicit in that judgment and destruction. Contemporary Jewish historians concur:

"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

What do the city and sanctuary refer to if not Jerusalem? Their destruction was divinely foreordained to unmistakably signal the final end of the old covenant era.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Both Romans and Jews qualify as "the people of the prince" (i.e. prince Messiah). The Romans were Messiah's agents of judgment and destruction. Many Jews were fully complicit in that judgment and destruction.

You need to get Daniel's people part right in the first place. I realize that there are people who believe that Danie's people are only limited to ethnic Jews and their physical city, Jerusalem. I do not believe that is what God talked about. Daniel's people are the congregation of Israel, starting with the Jews of Old Testament congregation AND the Gentiles of the New Testament Congregation. We, Christians, are considered "Jews" inwardly IN CHRIST, so yes, we are Daniel's people! God's covenant is for us through Christ. Not for the Jews only.

What do the city and sanctuary refer to if not Jerusalem?

I have explained this many times, check my post history.
 
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jgr

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You need to get Daniel's people part right in the first place. I realize that there are people who believe that Danie's people are only limited to ethnic Jews and their physical city, Jerusalem. I do not believe that is what God talked about. Daniel's people are the congregation of Israel, starting with the Jews of Old Testament congregation AND the Gentiles of the New Testament Congregation. We, Christians, are considered "Jews" inwardly IN CHRIST, so yes, we are Daniel's people! God's covenant is with us through Daniel. Not only the Jews.

There's no question that the relevant portions of Daniel 9:24-27 include all who are in Christ.

I have explained this many times, check my post history.

Which posts? Links please.
 
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TribulationSigns

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The city is physical Jerusalem, and the right people are the Romans. What is not right is the failure to recognize there is a gap from the day the messiah is cutoff - until the prince who shall come confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

After Messiah was cut off, Prince who comes confirms "Mt. Sinai Covenant" ?!

Jerusalem is a physical city, because Jerusalem is the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree. Something that someone can see and witness. 1967 Jerusalem back in the hand of the Jews.

Okay, let me explain something clearly what Scripture actually says before deal with your fig tree claim...

Luke 19:44
  • "And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."
Don't you see that Christ is not talking about a physical city, but the Old Testament congregation of Israel, and how it would be brought to ruin or desolation? It's so obvious. And it is also obvious that it was not in 70 A.D. by the Romans, but by Christ's own people who rejected Him. The Holy City and Sanctuary "represent" the Lord's Old Testament congregation, the people of Israel. Moreover, when God fulfills Scripture, it's not halfway, pick and choose or contradictory, it's total harmony with itself.

Daniel 9:26
  • "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
The people who destroyed the city were not the Romans, it was the people of the Prince, the Messiah, ACCORDING TO THE CONTEXT! Christ was cut off at the cross, not in 70 A.D., and not for Himself--for His people. Indeed true to his prophecy, the city and the sanctuary were destroyed or brought to desolation by the people of the Prince.. This is what Christ spoke about as He wept over the Holy City Jerusalem concerning its desolation. Not that it would take play over 30 years later in 70 A.D., but them being cut off and blinded when He (whom the city and sanctuary represented) was cut off. It's not talking about physical stones falling, but spiritual stones falling as the kingdom was taken from them and given to another. Not God's building the ruins again by physical stones, but by spiritual stones, with Him (whom they had rejected as Messiah) as the chief corner stone of that rebuilding. Sure, there are professing Christians running to and fro looking for a physical rebuilding of the Holy Temple and a Physical restoring of the land and city, but this is private rather than God's interpretation of the Prophecy.

Mark 12:9-12
  • "What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
  • And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
  • This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
  • And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way."
How is it that they knew, but Christians today with so much more information choose to think it terms of physical stones and buildings. Even these of Israel perceived that this building Christ spoke about in parables was about them, and the rebuilding with Christ as the cornerstone, was spoken about Him. Today we muse about how stone falling and being in rebuilding must be taken in a literal fashion simply because of Josephus' testimony of the Romans who laid siege upon and sacked Jerusalem. That's all well and Good, but where is the Biblical validation that "this" fulfills prophecy? Simply because it seems so doesn't cut it.

As for "Fig Tree"...

It is a matter of accepting the words of men versus the word of God, and God's word wins out every time because only His word is one hundred percent authoritative, true and trustworthy.

Matthew 21:19-20
  • "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."
Matthew 21:43
  • "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
Forever is a long time right? It did not last until 1967!! But FOREVER! The Fig Tree is national Israel (old testament congregation) who bore no fruit when Christ came the first time at the time of their visitation, and His judgment was that it would never bear fruit. ...as it hasn't to this very day.

Of course, there are people out there, like you, are free to teach that God is "not finished with national Israel" if they choose, but unless God is going to go back on His Word and have the Fig Tree bear fruit, or He is now going to remove the Kingdom from the New Testament congregation that it was given to when He took it from National Israel (gasp), then I'd say God's word again trumps anything man has to say on the matter that I testified here. There are lots of ideas floating around out there, but you see the word of God is my anchor--meaning it's sure and grounded. It's not something that theologians can move here or there, relocate or shift around like I saw some people doing here, to conform to their own actual beliefs and theories.
 
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Douggg

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After Messiah was cut off, Prince who comes confirms "Mt. Sinai Covenant" ?!
On my chart, the Antichrist, newly anointed King of Israel by the false prophet. Confirming of the covenant is in the upper right hand corner - a big speech from the temple mount. Note the flag - while he is the King of Israel. And ends being the King of Israel. Go to my second chart below for additional information.


upload_2020-7-3_17-11-51.jpeg



_______________________________________________________________________


upload_2020-7-3_17-16-6.jpeg
 
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jgr

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After Messiah was cut off, Prince who comes confirms "Mt. Sinai Covenant" ?!



Okay, let me explain something clearly what Scripture actually says before deal with your fig tree claim...

Luke 19:44
  • "And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."
Don't you see that Christ is not talking about a physical city, but the Old Testament congregation of Israel, and how it would be brought to ruin or desolation? It's so obvious. And it is also obvious that it was not in 70 A.D. by the Romans, but by Christ's own people who rejected Him. The Holy City and Sanctuary "represent" the Lord's Old Testament congregation, the people of Israel. Moreover, when God fulfills Scripture, it's not halfway, pick and choose or contradictory, it's total harmony with itself.

Daniel 9:26
  • "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
The people who destroyed the city were not the Romans, it was the people of the Prince, the Messiah, ACCORDING TO THE CONTEXT! Christ was cut off at the cross, not in 70 A.D., and not for Himself--for His people. Indeed true to his prophecy, the city and the sanctuary were destroyed or brought to desolation by the people of the Prince.. This is what Christ spoke about as He wept over the Holy City Jerusalem concerning its desolation. Not that it would take play over 30 years later in 70 A.D., but them being cut off and blinded when He (whom the city and sanctuary represented) was cut off. It's not talking about physical stones falling, but spiritual stones falling as the kingdom was taken from them and given to another. Not God's building the ruins again by physical stones, but by spiritual stones, with Him (whom they had rejected as Messiah) as the chief corner stone of that rebuilding. Sure, there are professing Christians running to and fro looking for a physical rebuilding of the Holy Temple and a Physical restoring of the land and city, but this is private rather than God's interpretation of the Prophecy.

Mark 12:9-12
  • "What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
  • And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
  • This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
  • And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way."
How is it that they knew, but Christians today with so much more information choose to think it terms of physical stones and buildings. Even these of Israel perceived that this building Christ spoke about in parables was about them, and the rebuilding with Christ as the cornerstone, was spoken about Him. Today we muse about how stone falling and being in rebuilding must be taken in a literal fashion simply because of Josephus' testimony of the Romans who laid siege upon and sacked Jerusalem. That's all well and Good, but where is the Biblical validation that "this" fulfills prophecy? Simply because it seems so doesn't cut it.

As for "Fig Tree"...

It is a matter of accepting the words of men versus the word of God, and God's word wins out every time because only His word is one hundred percent authoritative, true and trustworthy.

Matthew 21:19-20
  • "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."
Matthew 21:43
  • "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
Forever is a long time right? It did not last until 1967!! But FOREVER! The Fig Tree is national Israel (old testament congregation) who bore no fruit when Christ came the first time at the time of their visitation, and His judgment was that it would never bear fruit. ...as it hasn't to this very day.

Of course, there are people out there, like you, are free to teach that God is "not finished with national Israel" if they choose, but unless God is going to go back on His Word and have the Fig Tree bear fruit, or He is now going to remove the Kingdom from the New Testament congregation that it was given to when He took it from National Israel (gasp), then I'd say God's word again trumps anything man has to say on the matter that I testified here. There are lots of ideas floating around out there, but you see the word of God is my anchor--meaning it's sure and grounded. It's not something that theologians can move here or there, relocate or shift around like I saw some people doing here, to conform to their own actual beliefs and theories.

Both spiritual and physical destruction and desolation occurred as prophesied.

The latter was a visible confirmation of the former.
 
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Douggg

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Matthew 21:19-20
  • "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."
Matthew 21:43
  • "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
Forever is a long time right?
No, you are mixings words. The curse henceforth forever was about that particular plant. Not about the nation of Israel. The kingdom of God was taken from that generation of Israel and will be given to the parable of the fig tree generation nation of Israel.

The kingdom of Heaven will be brought here to earth as the Kingdom of God here on earth.

The Lord's prayer.

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy Name,
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those
who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever. Amen.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Both spiritual and physical destruction and desolation occurred as prophesied.

The latter was a visible confirmation of the former.

This is not how it works with God's Word. You can't have both ways.
 
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No, you are mixings words. The curse henceforth forever was about that particular plant. Not about the nation of Israel.

"particular plant"?! God of all creation came to earth as a man to curse that "particular plant" as if it have no meaning? Especially after you insisted that fig tree represents Israel elsewhere! Oh, mine! Thanks for making my day!

source.gif
 
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mkgal1

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Then he is incorrect, preterist, or not. Your take on the second part of Daniel 9:26 you believe has to do with physical destruction of Jerusalem by Romans in 70AD is incorrect. Because you can't skip the cut off of the Messiah only to have 62nd week extended to 70AD if you will have the final week to be confirmed by Christ at the Cross BEFORE 62nd week can be fulfilled! That is confusion. You got the wrong people (Romans) and the wrong city and the sanctuary (physical Jerusalem) to begin with.
That understanding is confused....you're correct about that.

Who is "skipping the cut off of the Messiah "? That occurred in the **70th** week...in the middle (30 AD) when Jesus was crucified. I don't know where you're getting all that about an extended 62 week and the Cross being before the 62nd week?

I don't know how to use any chart-making software....but here's a simplified timeline:

457 BC---408 BC first 7 weeks

408BC---27 AD 3 score and 2 weeks

27 AD-----34 AD 70th week (Jesus crucified in the middle)
 
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Douggg

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TribulationSigns

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Who is "skipping the cut off of the Messiah "? That occurred in the **70th** week...in the middle (30 AD) when Jesus was crucified. I don't know where you're getting all that about an extended 62 week and the Cross being before the 62nd week?

You did. You have placed Daniel 9:27 before Daniel 9:26.

328602_660a03e2cf9b26dd30c2d38ef798f30f.png
 
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mkgal1

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You did. You have placed Daniel 9:27 before Daniel 9:26.
What does that have to do with what you said about extended 62 weeks....and skipping the cut off of the Messiah? The Cross was Messiah being cut off....and that is there in CG's illustration. What were you saying about the Cross being before the 62 weeks?

The standard belief is that the period from 30 AD to 70 AD represents a transitional time of grace......a period of trial between 2 distinct epochs much in the way other periods of 40 are represented in the Bible

Maybe this offers another perspective (mostly the same info - just presented a bit differently):

daniels-70-weeks.jpg
 
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