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dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

Tom 1 said:
Yes, it's a bit of a mixed bag though. People without serious symptoms are developing secondary effects, some of the sub-ICU level cases have be left with permanent health conditions. Even the not so serious cases that still require some hospital treatment are leading to an estimated rise in death in the 10s of thousands due to the knock on effect of people not seeking treatment for other ailments when they normally would.

you mean like heart attacks and the like?

Tom 1 · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
They will get better at some point ( especially if herd immunity is anywhere near a thing. That is how 1918 pandemic ended basically enough people got it that it became a non-issue. Now it cost 50 million lives but it DID in fact go away.

That strategy doesn't compare well with that of countries that have managed to get it under control. It's certainly possible, but it requires effective leadership. Simply waiting to see what happens is of course an option, but it's not a very good one.

dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

Kentonio said:
I think you’ll see a very rapid change in people’s attitudes and behaviours when this starts to spiral out of control. Sometimes it takes being confronted by disaster to wake people up to what is important.

I can about promise you we will not shut down ( like before again.)

Tom 1 · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
you mean like heart attacks and the like?

A variety of things, some people for example with pre-existing health conditions being hesitant to go into hospital during any sort of acute episode, or not being able to because of a lack of availability.

dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

Tom 1 said:
That strategy doesn't compare well with that of countries that have managed to get it under control. It's certainly possible, but it requires effective leadership. Simply waiting to see what happens is of course an option, but it's not a very good one.

It is an option so far looking at the numbers deaths= six figure but recoveries= seven figures and THOSE are the recoveries we know about as opposed to people having it not knowing it and recovering that way

dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

rjs330 said:
I'm not surprised about any of this. We knew it was going to happen. Once people got out and started moving around it was going to spread.

It was inevitable. Americans just won't give up their lifestyle for COVID. They won't stay shut down, they won't maintain social distancing.

Nothing more can be done.

yup common sense says when you open things back up it will spread.

jgarden · Jul 3, 2020

Albion said:
I have no idea what point you want to make there, but the death totals from Covid-19 are less than from the flu that we have lived with year after year without upending all of the people's rights. Naturally, the scare merchants and their political agenda do not want to give that reality very much coverage.

The "scare merchants" would be right - the death rates associated with COVID-19 are far greater than those associated with the flu as the population groups get older!

Kentonio · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
I can about promise you we will not shut down ( like before again.)

You can’t promise that. If you saw Italy during their worst parts of the crisis you’ll understand why.

FreeinChrist · Jul 3, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Unfortunately, yes.

Let's all pray or send positive thoughts that things change, that we regain our national sanity and realize that wearing masks and following science-based advice isn't a political issue.

QFT

More could have been done on a national level. For instance, regarding supplies and tests. The Trump administration could have done more to nationalize the supply line of PPE and vents so that states were not competing with each other.

lasthero · Jul 3, 2020

FreeinChrist said:
QFT

More could have been done on a national level. For instance, regarding supplies and tests. The Trump administration could have done more to nationalize the supply line of PPE and vents so that states were not competing with each other.

Not to mention constantly downplaying the seriousness of the threat, doing nothing to prepare Americans for the potential change in their lifestyles, and being a constant source of disinformation.

'Some people say that whole thing goes away in April with the heat'. Right.

Tom 1 · Jul 3, 2020

dogs4thewin said:
It is an option so far looking at the numbers deaths= six figure but recoveries= seven figures and THOSE are the recoveries we know about as opposed to people having it not knowing it and recovering that way

I don’t think you’re taking more than a few basic figures into account there. If you read up on it a bit you can get a better grasp of the bigger picture.

Tom 1 · Jul 3, 2020

FreeinChrist said:
QFT

More could have been done on a national level. For instance, regarding supplies and tests. The Trump administration could have done more to nationalize the supply line of PPE and vents so that states were not competing with each other.

Just some basic leadership skills would make a difference, getting people together, coordinating plans and efforts, finding ways to deal effectively with the differing situations in different parts of the country. What did you get instead? Some oaf playing out his desperation for attention on national TV, spouting utter nonsense about miracle cures and desperately trying to shift the blame for his own inability to do anything useful. Putting Trump in charge was a shameful act the US is unlikely to ever live down.

rjs330 · Jul 3, 2020

FreeinChrist said:
The rest of the world is looking at America as a failure. Our lack of a national plan is a national humiliation.

That's because other countries don't have the same form of government we do. That's why America has led the rest if the world in economic strength and power for so long.

And other countries haven't finished yet. They still have COVID too. This isn't over for them yet.

dogs4thewin · Jul 3, 2020

Kentonio said:
You can’t promise that. If you saw Italy during their worst parts of the crisis you’ll understand why.

I doubt that would fly here.

FreeinChrist · Jul 3, 2020

rjs330 said:
That's because other countries don't have the same form of government we do. That's why America has led the rest if the world in economic strength and power for so long.

And other countries haven't finished yet. They still have COVID too. This isn't over for them yet.

The European Union is made of democracies.

There have been national responses to many things. Each state did not create its own smallpox vaccine in the early 1900s - that was a done on a federal level. Same with polio - giving out the Salk vaccine had federal backing in the late 50s. The federal government steps in situations like hurricanes or severe flooding. The federal government has the authority, if they want, to insist on mask use nationally, just like they can insist restaurants require shoes and shirts, and that cars have seatbelts and people need to use them. The only thing that would stop the requirement for a person in using them if it it violates a law in regards to an individual such as ADA with a person has autism and the mask is overstimuating. Another exception would be bad COPD where the person already normally has a high level of CO2 in their blood and a mask would tip them over into emergency status. But then, a person with that has no business exposing themselves to the virus anyway, if they can even get around. For most, there is no excuse and the government can insist on it when in public.

jgarden · Jul 3, 2020

Tom 1 said:
That strategy doesn't compare well with that of countries that have managed to get it under control. It's certainly possible, but it requires effective leadership. Simply waiting to see what happens is of course an option, but it's not a very good one.

Arizona currently has more cases testing positive for COVID-19 in one day than the entire European Union with its total population of approximately 440 million - Trump promised that his supporters would grow weary of "too much winning," but I doubt this is what he had in mind!

The fact that Canadians, but not their US counterparts, are now allowed on international flights to the European Union represents an independent 3rd party appraisal as to how successful America has been in addressing the pandemic!

CNN is showing the President currently playing golf in Virginia - apparently he has nothing better to do with his time!

hedrick · Jul 3, 2020

Tom 1 said:
What is painful to watch in the US is the absence of even any sort of attempt at leadership

You mean national leadership. We are a federation. In this case we're behaving like the EU rather than an individual nation. We would have been better off with national leadership, but plenty of states have shown leadership. The problem isn't just lack of national leadership but the fact that response became a partisan issue, so states behaved differently. Although you can kind of understand that. The states that responded did so when they saw cases rising. Even the Northeast should have reacted sooner. Other states decided to believe it wouldn't happen to them possibly because they were less densely populated.

It's an interesting case in alternate-world fiction to think of what the states would have done if Trump had said in January: "This isn't my problem. States should plan to deal with this on their own. Start now."

rjs330 · Jul 3, 2020

FreeinChrist said:
The European Union is made of democracies.

There have been national responses to many things. Each state did not create its own smallpox vaccine in the early 1900s - that was a done on a federal level. Same with polio - giving out the Salk vaccine had federal backing in the late 50s. The federal government steps in situations like hurricanes or severe flooding. The federal government has the authority, if they want, to insist on mask use nationally, just like they can insist restaurants require shoes and shirts, and that cars have seatbelts and people need to use them. The only thing that would stop the requirement for a person in using them if it it violates a law in regards to an individual such as ADA with a person has autism and the mask is overstimuating. Another exception would be bad COPD where the person already normally has a high level of CO2 in their blood and a mask would tip them over into emergency status. But then, a person with that has no business exposing themselves to the virus anyway, if they can even get around. For most, there is no excuse and the government can insist on it when in public.

The EU doesn't have the Constitutional Government of the United States. The US was founded on states power not federal power. The Federal government has grabbed more and more power from the states as time has gone on. It doesn't mean it's right. The states have allowed it. But the Feds don't automatically have the power to mandate states to do things. They have to pass laws that require states to do certain things.

The science is not clear on masks. There is enough evidence that says masks are not that effective.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't use abundance of caution. I wear a mask when in public. But you act like the federal government mandating masks is the major thing. States can do that without the feds. I haven't seen Congress pass any laws on masks.

Vaccines are irrelevant. We don't have one for COVID. No one does. I'm not sure why you brought it up.

The Feds should be there to help the states, not control them. And I am seeing states take their own steps without federal mandates. That's what they should be doing. If the states need assistance the states have gotten it.

hedrick · Jul 3, 2020

I actually agree that a national mask mandate is unnecessary. States are taking leadership on this. The situation is different in different states, although at the moment it's clear that all states should require them when outside the home and likely to be in contact with others.

While a national law isn't necessarily needed, Trump needs to wear masks when he's not doing public speaking, and at the point everyone else needs to be distanced from him. The fact that he has so much special protection around him that he's not at risk is irrelevant. He sets an example. In this case a bad one.

jgarden · Jul 3, 2020

If the President had applied himself, demonstrated true leadership and not treated the pandemic as an annoyance whereby all the responsibilities could be downloaded onto the Governors, Trump dismal prospects for re-election would be a totally different story!

History will record that the 2020 Pandemic provided this President with his "golden opportunity" to regain the confidence of the nation - in true Trumpian fashion he was more concerned about playing politics, allowed his last chance at success to slip through his fingers and will forever be remembered as a "LOSER!"

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