The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

Major1 · Jul 2, 2020

FineLinen said:
It is always exciting having individuals saying how "simple" the mysteries of the God of Glory are.

Can you tell us what is before aionios?

“In hope of aionios life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before aionios began.”

Universalists believe that no one will be punished or destroyed eternally, but rather that everyone will eventually be redeemed and live joyfully in God’s eternal Kingdom. Two of the most difficult texts for the Universalist view use the Greek word aionios. In all widely used English translations, aionios is translated as either “eternal” or “everlasting” in these two verses. It will be easy to see why, if this translation is correct, these verses are fatal to the Universalist position:

CSB Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life."

CSB 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal (aionios) destruction from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength

Universalists often respond by arguing that aionios does not mean eternal in these verses. They often argue for a meaing like “lasting for an age”.

I part 1 we looked at evidence from the 71 uses of aionios in the New Testament. I concluded that the evidence strongly supports aionios meaning “eternal” in the literal sense of “eternal” whenever it is looking forward in time.

In part 2 I examined an argument which is commonly seen in popular Universalist writings but which some Universalists avoid. This argument basically says that since the adjective aionios is derived from the noun aion and since aion means “an age”, then aionios must mean “lasting for an age.” I explained that this argument is doubly wrong. It commits the etymological fallacy of determining the meaning of a word from its roots rather than from its usage. Further, since aion as used in the New Testament most commonly refers to a future eternal age, even using their wrong methodology, the most likely meaning for aionios when referring to things in the coming age would be “eternal”.
parresiazomai: Universalist Arguments Concerning Aionios in the Old Testament are Flawed (What does Aionios mean?, Part 3)

Major1 · Jul 2, 2020

FineLinen said:
My friend I am telling you nothing. I declare the all of ta panta, and the radical all of pas, will be consummated in the Living God!

Source, Guide, Goal of the all.

Critics of universalism state that the identical Greek term "aionas ton aionon," which means "ages of the ages," is used in the Bible to describe both the eternal worth of God and the eternal fire of hell.

Critics say universalists are picking and choosing when aionas ton aionon means "limited."

Universalists reply that to correct the "errors" in translation, they are in the process of producing their own translation of the Bible. However, one of the pillars of Christianity is that the Bible, as the Word of God, is inerrant. When the Bible must be rewritten to accommodate a doctrine, it is the doctrine that is wrong, not the Bible.
Why Universalism Is Popular, But Fatally Flawed

nolidad · Jul 2, 2020

FineLinen said:
The apostle is clear as a bell! The all things = ta panta.

Let's review ta panta again.

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Well CS Lewis is not the Bible, though I love much of his writings.

Second whoever told you ta pavnte or "the all" means totality has led you wrong. Let me exemplify.

In English, a wife asks "are all the children coming to the party? Husband replies: "Yes all teh children are coming". Now, no one would think that by this they mean every child on the earth! But a select group limited in scope to those invited. We do this by inference.

The greek did this by adding the definite article. So in Greek when we see "the all" (ta pavnte or any of the many derivations) it is a limited number .

nolidad · Jul 2, 2020

Major1 said:
I think most everyone knows the story of ANION to AION except...……...

I was awestruck at how many here do not know!

nolidad · Jul 2, 2020

Major1 said:
You are correct.

My guess is that because of their obscure, non Biblical opinions, they probably are not allowed in a church to teach this stuff so they hang out here on the net.

The troubling thing to me is how easy they manipulate Scriptures so as to make them fit an agenda which does not exist.

It is exactly like "FESTAVUS".

Well in learning why they think the way they do, I found that there is a large corpus of writing dating back quite a while! A Christian universalism is a very small minority in the church but they are growing more verbal. While it is heresy that must be fought, at least these folks recognize the love and saving grace of Jesus!

nolidad · Jul 2, 2020

FineLinen said:
Sorry Noli: Our God is the Source, Guide & Goal of the all/ the ta panta. Yes, He is the Author and Finisher of the all, nothing, but nothing escapes His grasp!

#1 -Rom. 11:36

"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists and in Him everything ends."

Ta pavnte= the all things.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming. From Him ta pavnte comes, through Him ta pavnte exists, and in Him ta pavnte ends.

#2. -Eph. 1:-

"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."

The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en/in Christ.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

#3 -Col. 1:20

"God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself, making peace through His blood...to reconcile to Himself through Him, I say, things on earth and things in heaven. And you..."

The all things (the ta pavnte) in the heavens, the all things (the ta pavnte) in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. God has purposed to reconcile the universe (the ta pavnte) to Himself. The ta pavnte/ the all, encompasses the ta pavnte on the earth and the ta pavnte in the heavens. The ta pavnte= the all, the whole enchilada.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

I agree with you rfirst line, then afterwards all of your comments come from a bad grasp of Greek and English!

You seem to forget that God does not reconciel the creation- He destroys it and makes it new!

YOu assume that animals get eternal life
you assume that teh wicked in the lake get to repent
you assume God will even let them repent.
YOu assume they can even communicate with teh Father
You assume pantos (ta pavnte) means everything qwhen it doesn't you have been deceived!

FineLinen · Jul 2, 2020

nolidad said:
Second whoever told you ta pavnte or "the all" means totality has led you wrong.

Noli: The koine ta panta/ta pavnte means the all. The koine pas means the radical all.

I know how much fundys hate both words, but alas, they both stand in all their glory!

All = pa’ß =

Radically means “all.”

Used without the article it means “every,” every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Eph. 2:21, “every building,” and the text in Eph. 3:15, “every family,” and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36, “every house;”

or, it may signify “the highest degree,” the maximum of what is referred to, as, “with all boldness” Acts 4:29.

Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like “Israel,” it signifies either “all” or “the whole,” e.g., Matt. 2:3; Acts 2:36.

Used with the article, it means the whole of one object.

In the plural it signifies “the totality of the persons or things referred to.”

Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning “everyone” or “anyone.”

In the plural with a noun it means “all.”

One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies “wholly, together, in all ways, in all things,” Acts 20:35; 1 Cor. 9:25.

The neuter plural without the article signifies “all things severally,” e.g., John 1:3; 1 Cor. 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes “all things,” as constituting a whole, e.g., Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 3:9.

Ta panta/ ta pavnte =

Ta Panta - The All

Der Alte · Jul 2, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
Noli: The koine ta panta/ta pavnte means the all. The koine pas means the radical all.
I know how much fundys hate both words, but alas, they both stand in all their glory!
All = pa’ß =
Radically means “all.”
Used without the article it means “every,” every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Eph. 2:21, “every building,” and the text in Eph. 3:15, “every family,” and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36, “every house;”
or, it may signify “the highest degree,” the maximum of what is referred to, as, “with all boldness” Acts 4:29.
Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like “Israel,” it signifies either “all” or “the whole,” e.g., Matt. 2:3; Acts 2:36.
Used with the article, it means the whole of one object.
In the plural it signifies “the totality of the persons or things referred to.”
Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning “everyone” or “anyone.”
In the plural with a noun it means “all.”
One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies “wholly, together, in all ways, in all things,” Acts 20:35; 1 Cor. 9:25.
The neuter plural without the article signifies “all things severally,” e.g., John 1:3; 1 Cor. 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes “all things,” as constituting a whole, e.g., Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 3:9.
Ta panta/ ta pavnte =

Wrong! Repeating this over and over and over does not make it true.
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many," 71 times.
Paul used the word "pas"/"all," 375 times
When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas," not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used “oi polloi”/”the many” 12 times where it clearly does not mean "all."
Romans 12:5, Romans 15:22-23, Romans 16:2,1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13
In one verse 1 Cor 10:33 Paul used “the many” and “all” in the same verse.

1 Corinthians 10:33
33 Even as I please all [παντα] men in all [πασιν] things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many [των πολλων], that they may be saved.

Saint Steven · Jul 3, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
The ghastly unbiblcal doctrine of universalism. It makes Gods word and promises out to be a lie. The vanity of human reasoning and logic. As Paul points out the things of God are foolishness to those without His Spirit guiding them in 1 Cor 2. Since things of an eternal nature are spiritual they must be spiritually appraised which is not by human wisdom and reasoning.

hope this helps !!!

The ghastly unbiblical doctrine of Damnationism. It makes God out to be an angry volcano god. The worst tyrant of all. A god that would create countless billions of individuals for the sole purpose of unspeakable eternal conscious torment. Most of whom had never so much as heard the name of Jesus.

Saint Steven · Jul 3, 2020

If I remember correctly, here is the scripture in question pasted below.
Two equal comparatives are being made. All = All and Many = Many

In verse 18 we see "condemnation for all people" compared with "life for all people".
If "condemnation" was for all, then "life" was for all. All = All
Verse 19 restates it using "the many". It says "the many were made sinners". But we know that this means "all". Then it says "the many will be made righteous". Since we have equal comparatives, "the many" = all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Furthermore, the scripture above follows this one. All stated in the past tense. Done deal.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Saint Steven · Jul 3, 2020

Major1 said:
Actually there really is no need for debate as your BEST friend has already said and I agreed with him that...……….
"THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!!

FINELINEN SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

That seems to be a misunderstanding on some level. You might even be misquoting, or twisting his words. In either case, the use of words to bludgeon another. Is this what you should be about?

Saint Steven · Jul 3, 2020

Major1 said:
When a man falls in love with an idea/opinion he will then search the Scriptures to try and make anything he can find fit what it is he has convinced himself is the truth.

Explain how this differs from what you are doing?

com7fy8 · Jul 3, 2020

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he will also reap; for he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Galatians 6:7-8)

There are people reaping "torment" . . . not because of God >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, our own sinning can have us in "torment", right now . . . because of our own nature making us able to suffer "torment".

Saint Steven · Jul 3, 2020

Major1 said:
Critics of universalism state that the identical Greek term "aionas ton aionon," which means "ages of the ages," is used in the Bible to describe both the eternal worth of God and the eternal fire of hell.

Critics say universalists are picking and choosing when aionas ton aionon means "limited."

Universalists reply that to correct the "errors" in translation, they are in the process of producing their own translation of the Bible. However, one of the pillars of Christianity is that the Bible, as the Word of God, is inerrant. When the Bible must be rewritten to accommodate a doctrine, it is the doctrine that is wrong, not the Bible.
Why Universalism Is Popular, But Fatally Flawed

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Der Alte · Jul 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."
St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

This patently false out-of-context "quote" has been exposed before in this forum but the UR-ites continue to copy/paste it as if Moses himself carried it down from Mt Sinai.
Here is what Jerome actually said.

"As for my poor works which from no merits of theirs but simply from your own kindness you say that you desire to have; I have given them [Jerome's poor works] to your servants to transcribe, I have seen the paper-copies made by them, and I have repeatedly ordered them to correct them by a diligent comparison with the originals. …If then you find errors or omissions which interfere with the sense, these you must impute not to me but to your own servants; they are due to the ignorance or carelessness of the copyists, who write down not what they find but what they take to be the meaning, and do but expose their own mistakes when they try to correct those of others. Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5"
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/NPNF2-06/Npnf2-06-03.htm#P198_31321

Jerome was not talking about the scriptures being changed but how copyists were changing his writings.
.....Once again showing conclusively that UR is based on out-of-context proof texts. Any scribble that they can find which can be manipulated to support their agenda is fair game.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge''.....

The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledgeby Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

This is a textbook example of logical fallacy, "appeal to authority." "It must be true simply because Philip Schaff wrote it. Other than this one quote there is no, zero, none credible evidence for any of it. But once again that does not deter the UR crowd also copy/paste this as if Moses carried it down from Mt Sinai

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

15 cherry picked "versions" which support the UR agenda.
Here are two "literal" versions which have no bias toward any Christian denomination. But because they don't fit the UR agenda UR-ites avoid them like Covid 19.
For the OT.
Download The Holy Scriptures, Tanakh 1917 edition | The Jewish Publication Society
For the NT.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

Der Alte · Jul 3, 2020

com7fy8 said:
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he will also reap; for he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Galatians 6:7-8)
There are people reaping "torment" . . . not because of God >
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)
So, our own sinning can have us in "torment", right now . . . because of our own nature making us able to suffer "torment".

An interesting fact about 1 Jn 4:18, it is one of only 2 verses in the NT which has "kolasis," translated "torment." The other occurrence is in Matthew 25:46 where it is correctly translated "punishment." But some folks want to translate "kolasis," "correction" because "eternal punishment" does not fit their agenda.
Note 1 Jn 4:18 "fear involves torment. [kolasis] But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." The one who has fear [kolasis] is not corrected not made perfect.
But all around us we have make-believe UR "scholars" saying "Nuh-uh 'kolasis' doesn't mean punishment it means 'correction.""

Saint Steven · Jul 3, 2020

com7fy8 said:
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that he will also reap; for he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Galatians 6:7-8)

There are people reaping "torment" . . . not because of God >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, our own sinning can have us in "torment", right now . . . because of our own nature making us able to suffer "torment".

Not because of God?
How can you make such a claim?

Humankind did not "create" sin. Nor did humankind "create" the consequences.
The Creator "created" all things.

Not because of God?
How can you make such a claim?

Major1 · Jul 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That seems to be a misunderstanding on some level. You might even be misquoting, or twisting his words. In either case, the use of words to bludgeon another. Is this what you should be about?

I realize that you need to believe that but alas......NOPE.

I copied and pasted HIS EXACT words from another thread as he answered a question posed to him from me and that was his answer. Now there is no need to be concerned brother.....he gave the actual correct Biblical answer!!!!!!!

And do you really think that he would not do exactly the very same thing to anyone else Steve. Do you really believe that??

Major1 · Jul 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Explain how this differs from what you are doing?

Easy Steve. YOU have been sold an opinion which YOU have accepted and then YOU have gone to the Bible to find it. Problem is.....there is NOTHING in the Scriptures about Universalism!

On the other hand, I and the others who oppose your views have READ the Bible Scriptures first, studied what it says and then accepted what it said.

TWO directly opposite operations.

Major1 · Jul 3, 2020

Saint Steven said:
The ghastly unbiblical doctrine of Damnationism. It makes God out to be an angry volcano god. The worst tyrant of all. A god that would create countless billions of individuals for the sole purpose of unspeakable eternal conscious torment. Most of whom had never so much as heard the name of Jesus.

You said ……….
"The ghastly unbiblical doctrine of Damnationism."
And right here you have answered YOUR own question YOU posted in comment #1152.

Jesus, the God-Man said clearly in Matthew 7:21-23 that...……………..
"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Now I think that what God in the flesh said is completely opposite to what you believe.

The Lord Jesus also said Matthew 25:46 .........
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

That also is opposite of what you said about GASTLY Damnation.

Matthew 25:46...…..
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Now, just to correct your comment of "GASTLY UNBIBLICAL DAMNATION, allow me to post the EXACT words found in the Bible on this subject for you...…………….
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire”, “unquenchable fire”, “shame and everlasting contempt” , a place where “the fire is not quenched”, a place of “torment” and “fire”, “everlasting destruction”, a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever”, and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever”.

Now in the nicest and most respect way I can, I have to tell you Steve that it is YOU who are UNBIBLICAL!

The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

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