Can a bastard be a Christian?

JIMINZ · Jul 2, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Are you saying that the scriptures cited weren't applicable? Ezekiel 18? Matthew 9?

I would say, you are asking for private interpretations of said verses, which are useless unless you connected them to your question to begin with.

As I read the Ezk.18 reference I see it is in relation to Idolatry which is the context in which the Verses were spoken to Ezekiel to begin with.

These verses do not blanket cover all sin, even though we would like to believe they do.

Minister Monardo said:
Are you just responding to the question and not the OP?

I was answering the question, because neither of the Verses cited have been been connected to the Question, when the question was asked.

Is sounds like your saying the Bastard has been forgiven his sin of being a Bastard,.....do you believe being a Bastard is in fact a sin for the Bastard himself?

Why do you believe the verses you chose relate to the question you asked?

Mr. M · Jul 2, 2020

JIMINZ said:
I would say, you are asking for private interpretations of said verses, which are useless unless you connected them to your question to begin with.

As I read the Ezk.18 reference I see it is in relation to Idolatry which is the context in which the Verses were spoken to Ezekiel to begin with.

These verses do not blanket cover all sin, even though we would like to believe they do.

I was answering the question, because neither of the Verses cited have been been connected to the Question, when the question was asked.

Is sounds like your saying the Bastard has been forgiven his sin of being a Bastard,.....do you believe being a Bastard is in fact a sin for the Bastard himself?

Why do you believe the verses you chose relate to the question you asked?

This was being discussed earlier and here is post #16
It could only be restricting access to the Temple. I include Ezekiel 18 because here the prophet proclaims that everyone is responsible for his own sin. The sin in this case is clearly the father's, not the child born under the stigma. We have a more sure word of prophecy, and the Truth of the Gospel is that absolutely, as you say, a bastard can be a Christian. As Paul says, 'all scripture is profitable...for instruction in righteousness.' The purpose of the OP therefore, is to look to all scripture for answers. Someone could read Deuteronomy 23:2 and think, oh no! I am illegitimate. No, we have Good News for you.

coffee4u · Jul 2, 2020

Anyone can be born again. No matter what they have done or who they are.

See signature

friend of · Jul 2, 2020

LOL what?! God is a father to the fatherless my friend!

Mr. M · Jul 2, 2020

friend of said:
LOL what?! God is a father to the fatherless my friend!

fatherless=orphan
bastard=illegitimate child.
It is mentioned in the Law. How is it relevant to Christianity and Grace?
It would seem to be nullified to me, do you agree?

friend of · Jul 2, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
fatherless=orphan
bastard=illegitimate child.
It is mentioned in the Law. How is it relevant to Christianity and Grace?
It would seem to be nullified to me, do you agree?

Motherless and fatherless = orphan. Lacking a father but still having a mother =/= orphan.

Mr. M · Jul 2, 2020

friend of said:

Motherless and fatherless = orphan. Lacking a father but still having a mother =/= orphan.

Click to expand...

Deuteronomy 23.2. A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

OP is not about orphans.

Redwingfan9 · Jul 2, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Not by the Law of Moses.
Deuteronomy 23.2. A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

The Law AND the Prophets
Ezekiel 18:
1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 As I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as
the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Matthew 9:
5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins,
then He said to the paralytic, Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.

The prohibition against bastards is nothing more than ceremonial law done away with in Christ. The principle here is clear, they're banned in order to signify just how important purity and perfection is and just how evil sin is.

Toro · Jul 2, 2020

Matthew 12:50

If a person, illegitimate or not does the will of the Father.... and thus be "brother, sister or mother" to Jesus.... who dare to call them "illegitimate"? As they are declared to be family by the Lord.

There are plenty of Christians, that though they claim Christ, justify their sins as acceptable making them far more of a bastard to the family of God no matter how "legitimate" their fleshly existence may be.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 2, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Can a bastard be a Christian?

Hebrews 12:8 even.

Oompa Loompa · Jul 2, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Not by the Law of Moses.
Deuteronomy 23.2. A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

The Law AND the Prophets
Ezekiel 18:
1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 As I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as
the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Matthew 9:
5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins,
then He said to the paralytic, Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.

Fortunately, the scripture that you are referring to is regarding Israelite congregants of the Holy Temple. Not Christians in general.

Mr. M · Jul 2, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Hebrews 12:8 even.

Except that is when a Christian becomes a bastard, not vice-versa.

Blade · Jul 2, 2020

So.. you are questioning why Jesus died on the cross? Well why stop at just this one?
"Can a bastard be a Christian?"

Its just silly. You take a law that was for Israel.. jump past what happen on the cross and make it null.. as if it never happened. Forgive me but.. if your looking for a good debate or discussion.. this is not a good one

Do you know whats yours? I had ALL the promises (Deuteronomy)read at my wedding. As Issac was we are the Children of promise.

Mr. M · Jul 2, 2020

Blade said:
So.. you are questioning why Jesus died on the cross? Well why stop at just this one?
"Can a bastard be a Christian?"

Its just silly. You take a law that was for Israel.. jump past what happen on the cross and make it null.. as if it never happened. Forgive me but.. if your looking for a good debate or discussion.. this is not a good one

Do you know whats yours? I had ALL the promises (Deuteronomy)read at my wedding. As Issac was we are the Children of promise.

You assume too much. Are you just responding to the title, i.e. the question posed? The OP is the first post, did you miss this: read #1.
Matthew 9:
5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins,
then He said to the paralytic, Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.

People on this forum keep telling me I have to keep the Torah. I am just trying to figure out how, or why.
Never looking for debate, discussion sure. Just Truth.

Mr. M · Jul 2, 2020

Blade said:
So.. you are questioning why Jesus died on the cross? Well why stop at just this one?
"Can a bastard be a Christian?"

Its just silly. You take a law that was for Israel.. jump past what happen on the cross and make it null.. as if it never happened. Forgive me but.. if your looking for a good debate or discussion.. this is not a good one

Do you know whats yours? I had ALL the promises (Deuteronomy)read at my wedding. As Issac was we are the Children of promise.

Here is post #16
It could only be restricting access to the Temple. I include Ezekiel 18 because here the prophet proclaims that everyone is responsible for his own sin. The sin in this case is clearly the father's, not the child born under the stigma. We have a more sure word of prophecy, and the Truth of the Gospel is that absolutely, as you say, a bastard can be a Christian. As Paul says, 'all scripture is profitable...for instruction in righteousness.' The purpose of the OP therefore, is to look to all scripture for answers. Someone could read Deuteronomy 23:2 and think, oh no! I am illegitimate. No, we have Good News for you.

section9+1 · Jul 3, 2020

I think so since there's a lot of Christians out there who can be bastards.

a-lily-of-peace · Jul 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
People on this forum keep telling me I have to keep the Torah. I am just trying to figure out how, or why.
Never looking for debate, discussion sure. Just Truth.

Then in the spirit of truth I’ll start by saying I don’t know the absolute answer to this question.

I will say though that as far as I know, there’s nothing in Torah saying the child of unmarried parents is a “bastard” as long as the parents could legally marry. Even if the parents don’t marry (Exodus 22:16-17) there is no criminal punishment (contrast Deuteronomy 22:22-29).

My understanding is that a “bastard” or mamzer is born from sexual immorality. Compare Matthew 19:9 “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

Tracing that Greek inappropriate contenteia back to LXX gets to Leviticus 18, which lists a lot of immoralities but (unless I missed something) the only one that can lead to pregnancy is incest (sex during “customary time” would not, as we understand, but I’ll actually add that it could be possible in the case of blood not part of the “customary time” which is also ritually unclean, so just leave that one as a maybe?)

So that brings us to the definition of a bastard who was conceived out of adultery as referenced in Deuteronomy or incest (or in the customary time) as referenced in Leviticus and looking at that from the spiritual level:

Can a child conceived of *spiritual* adultery be a Christian? Arguably no, because you can not drink of the cup of Christ and the cup of demons, and being born again as a spiritually adulterous mix is not acceptable to God. This is “syncretism” in all of its forms which plagued Israel from the start.

Can a child conceived of *spiritual* incest be a Christian? Open for discussion, I’m not getting any great insight on this right now.

Can a child conceived during a *spiritual* “customary time” be a Christian? Arguably no, because that time is the time of shedding the dead egg, and brings to mind the thought of the seed that is snatched away by wild birds before it can implant. It’s a dead seed, maybe this is the empty “works based salvation” without the light of grace and rebirth in Christ.

So 2/3 of bastards (mamzerim) arguably can not, with 1/3 left for discussion.

Scott Husted · Jul 3, 2020

Minister Monardo said:
Not by the Law of Moses.
Deuteronomy 23.2. A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

The Law AND the Prophets
Ezekiel 18:
1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 As I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as
the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.

20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Matthew 9:
5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins,
then He said to the paralytic, Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.

Whether this is a good thing or bad thing "that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation ..." depends on where you are, where you have been given to see it from, or how far you have entered into his word/law/kingdom/relationship/sonship ... etc. which are different facets of the same one truth of knowing.

Mr. M · Jul 3, 2020

a-lily-in-the-valley said:
Then in the spirit of truth I’ll start by saying I don’t know the absolute answer to this question.

I will say though that as far as I know, there’s nothing in Torah saying the child of unmarried parents is a “bastard” as long as the parents could legally marry. Even if the parents don’t marry (Exodus 22:16-17) there is no criminal punishment (contrast Deuteronomy 22:22-29).

My understanding is that a “bastard” or mamzer is born from sexual immorality. Compare Matthew 19:9 “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”

Tracing that Greek inappropriate contenteia back to LXX gets to Leviticus 18, which lists a lot of immoralities but (unless I missed something) the only one that can lead to pregnancy is incest (sex during “customary time” would not, as we understand, but I’ll actually add that it could be possible in the case of blood not part of the “customary time” which is also ritually unclean, so just leave that one as a maybe?)

So that brings us to the definition of a bastard who was conceived out of adultery as referenced in Deuteronomy or incest (or in the customary time) as referenced in Leviticus and looking at that from the spiritual level:

Can a child conceived of *spiritual* adultery be a Christian? Arguably no, because you can not drink of the cup of Christ and the cup of demons, and being born again as a spiritually adulterous mix is not acceptable to God. This is “syncretism” in all of its forms which plagued Israel from the start.

Can a child conceived of *spiritual* incest be a Christian? Open for discussion, I’m not getting any great insight on this right now.

Can a child conceived during a *spiritual* “customary time” be a Christian? Arguably no, because that time is the time of shedding the dead egg, and brings to mind the thought of the seed that is snatched away by wild birds before it can implant. It’s a dead seed, maybe this is the empty “works based salvation” without the light of grace and rebirth in Christ.

So 2/3 of bastards (mamzerim) arguably can not, with 1/3 left for discussion.

Thank you for explaining that to us. I have been thinking a lot about that statute, and the expression 'enter into the congregation of the Lord'. I thought it was looking forward to an exclusion from entering the Temple, such as "the blind and the lame" exclusion resulting from David's angered resolution after the taking of Mount Zion. Also, I think that exclusion would mean that they could not stand at the Great Feast every 7 years when this book of the Law was read to the congregation. As well there may be other restrictions. I do not study the Talmud, but I think there could be some information on what this statute was placing restrictions on.
I included Ezekiel 18 in the OP, I think for obvious reasons, and as a Christian, of course see no exclusion from salvation by grace through faith. The reaction to the OP was very strange. So many people do not want to meditate on The Torah, just react like I had made something up to be provocative.
For example, I included Ezekiel 18 in part to show that I was considering who the actual sinner was, and who was essentially a victim, but some people's reaction was far too hasty and had a sort of angry tone.
Overall, I still think this has been a worthwhile exercise, and I appreciate your contribution, and pray for
your continuance in well-doing.
With thanksgiving, James

a-lily-of-peace · Jul 3, 2020

It definitely made me think about something I hadn’t thought about before, so thank you for that and God bless you too!

Can a bastard be a Christian?

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