LDS Who did Joseph Smith see in the "Sacred Grove?"

Ran77 · Jul 2, 2020

mmksparbud said:
They are---but still one God. # in one.

Then my statement valid.

Ran77 · Jul 2, 2020

mmksparbud said:
She has discussed her transformation on this website over many threads, both publicly and privately. But you certainly do not have to take my opinion on it.

You are correct. I don't. And I won't.

mmksparbud · Jul 2, 2020

mmksparbud said:
They are---but still one God. 3 in one.

3 different personalities, never the less---One God. How that is not explained. Nor can it be and I do not care who thinks they can. It is not explainable. It is God the Son that became human---not God the Father, He never was human and JS never saw the Father and the Son together and looking like identical twins. Jesus was 100% human at that time something the Father never was and could not be identical to the Father. Jesus was 100% divine and 100% human. And no one can explain that either. And no one has seen the Father at any time and Jesus Himself said that

Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

He was referring to Himself.

Andrewn · Jul 2, 2020

He is the way said:
Moses saw God face to face:

(Old Testament | Exodus 33:11)
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Do you believe in Moses? And what about this:

(Old Testament | Exodus 19:21)
21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.

Ran77 said:
Doesn't mainstream Christianity believe that Jesus and God are the same entity? If they are the same entity, then this is a nonsensical argument. It basically says, he didn't see God, he saw God. Or if you prefer, he didn't see Jesus, he saw Jesus. This argument only works if Jesus and the Father are seperate entities.

I agree with @mmksparbud. Moses saw Elohim face to face. He saw Yahweh / God the Son / the Glory of the Father. This is a great verse to show that Yahweh and Elohim are the same being. Moses did not see God the Father. No one can see Him and live. This is why Michelangelo was wrong in depicting God the Father in a human form. But seeing God the Son is the same like seeing God the Father bec He is the exact image of God the Father:

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; but the one and only God, in the Father’s embrace, has made Him known.

Joh 10:30-31 I and the Father are one.” Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him.

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. So how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Heb 1:3 He is the brightness of His glory, the express image of Himself, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

He is the way · Jul 2, 2020

mmksparbud said:
We are all sinners!

But not everyone has repented and been washed clean. After being cleaned a person needs to remain clean:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:18 - 22)

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

mmksparbud · Jul 2, 2020

He is the way said:
But not everyone has repented and been washed clean. After being cleaned a person needs to remain clean:

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:18 - 22)

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

JS did not see the Father.

mmksparbud · Jul 2, 2020

Andrewn said:
I agree with @mmksparbud. Moses saw Elohim face to face. He saw Yahweh / God the Son / the Glory of the Father. This is a great verse to show that Yahweh and Elohim are the same being. Moses did not see God the Father. No one can see Him and live. This is why Michelangelo was wrong in depicting God the Father in a human form. But seeing God the Son is the same like seeing God the Father bec He is the exact image of God the Father:

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; but the one and only God, in the Father’s embrace, has made Him known.

Joh 10:30-31 I and the Father are one.” Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him.

Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. So how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Heb 1:3 He is the brightness of His glory, the express image of Himself, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

I agree, however, the express image of His Father doe not mean that they are exactly alike in appearance. They are one God, but Jesus became human, something neither the Holy Spirit nor the Father ever were. Jesus retains His humanity, and always will---they can not look identical as JS and his artist friends say. They are completely identical in thought, purpose, in character. As we can be with them and each other.

Peter1000 · Jul 2, 2020

mmksparbud said:
I agree, however, the express image of His Father doe not mean that they are exactly alike in appearance. They are one God, but Jesus became human, something neither the Holy Spirit nor the Father ever were. Jesus retains His humanity, and always will---they can not look identical as JS and his artist friends say. They are completely identical in thought, purpose, in character. As we can be with them and each other.

There you go? So the express image of His Father isn't physical, it is thought, purpose, and character. Oh, now that makes sense and is clear as mud.

That is exactly how you get around Genesis 1:26. You take a straight forward statement and twist it into a complicated spiritual dimension philosophical idea, all because you cannot picture God as being in our image and in our likeness, which He is.

Good going. It will be interesting for you to meet your God for the first time, and He puts his arms around you and gives you a big hug. And all you can say
is, wait a minute I thought you were some kind of spirit.

mmksparbud · Jul 2, 2020

Peter1000 said:
There you go? So the express image of His Father isn't physical, it is thought, purpose, and character. Oh, now that makes sense and is clear as mud.

That is exactly how you get around Genesis 1:26. You take a straight forward statement and twist it into a complicated spiritual dimension philosophical idea, all because you cannot picture God as being in our image and in our likeness, which He is.

Good going. It will be interesting for you to meet your God for the first time, and He puts his arms around you and gives you a big hug. And all you can say
is, wait a minute I thought you were some kind of spirit.

ALL MADE IN OUR IMAGE!!

Andrewn · Jul 2, 2020

Col 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of all creation.
16
For by Him all things were created—
in heaven and on earth,
the seen and the unseen,
whether thrones or angelic powers
or rulers or authorities.
All was created through Him and for Him.
17
He exists before everything,
and in Him all holds together.

Peter1000 said:
There you go? So the express image of His Father isn't physical, it is thought, purpose, and character. Oh, now that makes sense and is clear as mud.

How can you say that when the verse itself says that God is invisible?!

There are just no way around it to get to your conclusion.

Who does the passages talk about: The one who was begotten before all creation, who himself created all things, and who sustains all things, right?

This is not the incarnate Jesus. This is the pre-incarnate Son of God, Yahweh if you will. He didn't have a physical body before the incarnation, did He?

Rescued One · Jul 2, 2020

Peter1000 said:
There you go? So the express image of His Father isn't physical, it is thought, purpose, and character. Oh, now that makes sense and is clear as mud.

Mormons are blinded by the craftiness of Joseph Smith.

Peter1000 said:
That is exactly how you get around Genesis 1:26. You take a straight forward statement and twist it into a complicated spiritual dimension philosophical idea, all because you cannot picture God as being in our image and in our likeness, which He is.

Joseph Smith lowered God to man's level. He wanted God to be a creature.

Peter1000 said:
Good going. It will be interesting for you to meet your God for the first time, and He puts his arms around you and gives you a big hug. And all you can say
is, wait a minute I thought you were some kind of spirit.

No you didn't.

He is the way · Jul 2, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Mormons are blinded by the craftiness of Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith lowered God to man's level. He wanted God to be a creature.

No you didn't.

Joseph Smith did not lower God to His children's level, He said that we can raise to our Father's level. It was not craftiness it is Biblical:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:4 - 10)

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 1:4)

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Satan would have us believe that we can't become like our Father who is God. He will do anything to stop us.

Andrewn · Jul 2, 2020

He is the way said:
Joseph Smith did not lower God to His children's level,

He lowered God by saying that He is one of the gods of the universes, He used to be a man and became exalted, people are of the same substance as God, He is father of Satan etc.

The whole thing reminds me of the Ugaritic pantheon with the highest god El / Elyon begetting many gods. But the most important god, the one to be worshipped was Baal, not El.

He is the way · Jul 2, 2020

Andrewn said:
He lowered God by saying that He is one of the gods of the universes, He used to be a man and became exalted, people are of the same substance as God, He is father of Satan etc.

For us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:5 - 6)

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jesus is God and so is the Father:

(New Testament | Matthew 1:23)

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

(New Testament | Mark 13:31 - 32)

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 ¶ But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

(New Testament | John 14:28)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

We can become one with them:

(New Testament | John 17:20 - 23)

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

God the Father is also the God and Father of Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

mmksparbud · Jul 2, 2020

He is the way said:
For us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:5 - 6)

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Jesus is God and so is the Father:

(New Testament | Matthew 1:23)

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

(New Testament | Mark 13:31 - 32)

31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 ¶ But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

(New Testament | John 14:28)

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

We can become one with them:

(New Testament | John 17:20 - 23)

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

God the Father is also the God and Father of Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He is only the God of this world, not the God of the universe. Jesus created that universe, including Lucifer. Jesus is no brother to Satan.

He is the way · Jul 2, 2020

mmksparbud said:
He is only the God of this world, not the God of the universe. Jesus created that universe, including Lucifer. Jesus is no brother to Satan.

Jesus has a Father.

Ran77 · Jul 3, 2020

mmksparbud said:
3 different personalities, never the less---One God. How that is not explained.

That's convenient when you don't have a reasonable explanation to support your claim. It also means you have nothing to offer as evidence against what I might offer. Basically, your position is one in the dark (as in lacking evidence or information).

mmksparbud said:
Nor can it be and I do not care who thinks they can. It is not explainable.

Purely your opinion.

mmksparbud said:
Jesus was 100% divine and 100% human. And no one can explain that either. And no one has seen the Father at any time and Jesus Himself said that

More opinion.

mmksparbud said:
Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

He was referring to Himself.

Just to be clear on this, Jesus says this about Himself. Jesus is definitely the one speaking in this verse. And you have identified that He is referring to Himself.

Ran77 · Jul 3, 2020

mmksparbud said:
JS did not see the Father.

Checking to make sure you are consistent here. Previously, you stated,

mmksparbud said:
Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

He was referring to Himself.

Which means your statement above means that JS did not see Jesus. Is that correct?

Ran77 · Jul 3, 2020

mmksparbud said:
No man can see the Father and live!!

Joh_5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Exo_33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Just further proof that JS was not of God.
The Father and the Son can not look alike! Jesus is now 100% human and divine. The Father was never human. If JS saw anything at all, it was not the Father and Son. It was, as has been pointed out,

2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Such an obvious fake. Either JS lied or he believed an obvious lie.

I knew I had seen this statement before.

mmksparbud said:
Joh_6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

He was referring to Himself.

By your own statement, John 6:46 talks about the Father and this means Jesus. Which contradicts the statement you made above. Your arguments are not consistent. They change to support whatever point you are wanting to make at the moment.

Andrewn · Jul 3, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Joseph Smith lowered God to man's level. He wanted God to be a creature.

He is the way said:
For us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ:

Yes, I understand. My understanding is that the revelation that God the Father used to be a man is not in the Book or Mormon, or the Pearl of Great Price. It's only in the 3rd collection of revelations: D&C. It kind of came late, correct?

I have to confess that I admire your ability to quote a lot of verses on certain topics.

LDS Who did Joseph Smith see in the "Sacred Grove?"

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