What period of time are we presently living in?

5thKingdom · Jul 1, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The beast is his envoy or enforcer. At the end Satan will be released from his restraint to empower the beast to subjugate the Church, curtail the Gospel expanse and deceive the nations again.

The term Beast is used two ways:
(1) to represent THE Anti-Christ, Satan's chief emissary on earth
(2) to represent the followers of the Anti-Christ (his "kingdom")
You have to look at the CONTEXT to distinguish which is used.

Below is the solution to "Mystery Babylon"

Rev:17:8
The Beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend
out of the Bottomless Pit, and go into Perdition: and they
[the Foolish Virgins of the 4th Beast] that dwell on the earth
[during the Great tribulation] shall wonder, whose name were
not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world,
when they behold the Beast that was, and is not, and yet is
[when the Revelations Beast arises].

The Beast (Kingdom) that John saw "was" because Satan's
spiritual Kingdom "was" ruling before being "bound" at the Cross.
The Beast "is not" because Satan's Kingdom had been "bound" in
the Bottomless Pit during the time John was seeing the vision.

The same Beast (the same Kingdom) will "ascend out of the
Bottomless Pit" at the sound of the 5th Trumpet
(also the "1st Woe").

The same Kingdom of Satan (the same 7-Headed Beast)
will "go into Perdition" at the end of the "2nd Woe"
as Satan's Kingdom (represented by the Revelation Beast)
is "cast alive" into the "Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12] and/or
into the "Lake-of-Fire" [Rev 19:20].

The Beast that "was" represents the Kingdom of Satan
during Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom and (2nd) Jewish
Kingdom. The Beast that "is not" represents the Kingdom
of Satan during Daniel's (3rd) Christian Kingdom - while
Satan was "bound" in the Bottomless Pit. The Beast
"ascending" out of the Bottomless Pit represents the
Kingdom of Satan during the "1st Woe".

And the Beast that "goes into Perdition" is the Kingdom
of Satan as it's destroyed after the "2nd Woe", when
the Fourth Beast, the "Kingdom of Babylon", is Judged
by God and then "cast alive" into eternal torment of the
"Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12] or "Lake-of-Fire". [Rev 19:20]

Rev 17:9
And here is the mind which hath wisdom, The SEVEN HEADS
are seven Mountains [seven Kings/Kingdoms] on which the
Woman [Babylon] sitteth [rules over]. 10 And there are
Seven Kings; FIVE ARE FALLEN, AND ONE IS, and the
other [the Seventh King] is not yet come: [is still a future
event after John's vision] and when he comes he must
continue for a SHORT SPACE [aka, during Satan's
"Little Season"].

The SEVEN HEADS on the Revelations Beast (ruled by
the "harlot" Babylon) represent seven "Kings" and/or
"Mountains". These Kings are also shown as the
SEVEN HEADS of Daniel's four Kingdoms. They include
one head/king from Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom (Lion),
another head/king from Daniel's (2nd) Jewish Kingdom (Bear).
It includes four heads/kings from Daniel's (3rd) Christian
Kingdom (Leopard) and the last head/king is from Daniel's
(4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom... namely, the Anti-Christ
("Little Horn" or "False Prophet"), for a total of seven "Heads",
seven "Kings", seven "Mountains".

Five Kings "are fallen" because (when the Apostle John saw
the vision) the head/king from Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
and the head/king from Daniel's (2nd) Jewish Kingdom were both
"fallen". In addition, three (out of the four) heads/kings from
Daniel's (3rd) Christian Kingdom were also "fallen"... for a total
of FIVE FALLEN KINGS. The last remaining head/king of the
New Testament Kingdom had not yet "fallen" because the last
head/king in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom was also the author
of the Book of Revelation, the Apostle John.

When John had the vision, the "King" of the (1st) Pre-Flood
Kingdom and the "King" of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom were both
"fallen". In addition, three (out of the four) "Kings" in the (3rd)
Christian Kingdom had also already "fallen"... for a total of
FIVE FALLEN KINGS.

The one King that "is not yet come" [Rev 17:10] is the
"Little Horn" or "False Prophet" of the (4th) Great Tribulation
Kingdom. This is the Seventh "King" that arises after the
"testimony" of the Two Witnesses was "finished"
(after the Great Commission), when Satan is "loosened"
from the Bottomless Pit and given spiritual "dominion" over
the "Wise Virgins" during the "1st Woe".

It's the Seventh King that led the "Ten Virgins" out of the
(3rd) Christian Kingdom, as we "went forth" into the Fourth
Kingdom. It's the Seventh King that "overcomes" and then
"kills" the Saints during the Reign of the First Revelation "Beast".

However, the Seventh King only "continues a short space"
[Rev 17:10]. The Seventh King suffers an apparently fatal wound
at the END of the "1st Woe". But later he's resurrected as the
EIGHTH "King"... during the "2nd Woe", the Second Beast.

Rev 17:11
And the Beast that was, and is not, even he is THE EIGHTH,
and is OF THE SEVEN, and [the Eighth Head/King] goeth
into Perdition.

The EIGHTH King of the Revelations Beast is "of the seven"
because that King is the same "False Prophet" (the 7th King)
after he has been 'resurrected' from his near fatal "wound",
suffered at the end of the "1st Woe". The Eighth King is
the same False Prophet ruling over the "image" of the
First Revelations Beast. This shows the Fourth Kingdom
during the 6th Trumpet (the "2nd Woe").

It is this Eighth King that made everyone (in the 4th Kingdom)
worship the "image" of the First Beast. It was this Eighth King
that caused everyone (in the 4th Beast) to take the "Mark of
the Beast". It was this Eighth King that was cast alive into the
"Burning Flame" or "Lake-of-Fire" at the end of the 4th Kingdom
- as the Eighth King "goeth into Perdition".

The "Mystery of Babylon" is a New Testament Commentary
on Daniel's Four Kingdoms... from the standpoint of the Apostle
John, living before the Great Commission was finished - and
before Satan was "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit and given
"dominion" to rule (through his chief emissary the Anti-Christ)
during the Great Tribulation Kingdom.

.

DavidPT · Jul 2, 2020

5thKingdom said:
The term Beast is used two ways:
(1) to represent THE Anti-Christ, Satan's chief emissary on earth
(2) to represent the followers of the Anti-Christ (his "kingdom")
You have to look at the CONTEXT to distinguish which is used.

Below is the solution to "Mystery Babylon"

Rev:17:8
The Beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend
out of the Bottomless Pit, and go into Perdition: and they
[the Foolish Virgins of the 4th Beast] that dwell on the earth
[during the Great tribulation] shall wonder, whose name were
not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world,
when they behold the Beast that was, and is not, and yet is
[when the Revelations Beast arises].

The Beast (Kingdom) that John saw "was" because Satan's
spiritual Kingdom "was" ruling before being "bound" at the Cross.
The Beast "is not" because Satan's Kingdom had been "bound" in
the Bottomless Pit during the time John was seeing the vision.

The same Beast (the same Kingdom) will "ascend out of the
Bottomless Pit" at the sound of the 5th Trumpet
(also the "1st Woe").

The same Kingdom of Satan (the same 7-Headed Beast)
will "go into Perdition" at the end of the "2nd Woe"
as Satan's Kingdom (represented by the Revelation Beast)
is "cast alive" into the "Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12] and/or
into the "Lake-of-Fire" [Rev 19:20].

The Beast that "was" represents the Kingdom of Satan
during Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom and (2nd) Jewish
Kingdom. The Beast that "is not" represents the Kingdom
of Satan during Daniel's (3rd) Christian Kingdom - while
Satan was "bound" in the Bottomless Pit. The Beast
"ascending" out of the Bottomless Pit represents the
Kingdom of Satan during the "1st Woe".

And the Beast that "goes into Perdition" is the Kingdom
of Satan as it's destroyed after the "2nd Woe", when
the Fourth Beast, the "Kingdom of Babylon", is Judged
by God and then "cast alive" into eternal torment of the
"Burning Flame" [Dan 7:12] or "Lake-of-Fire". [Rev 19:20]

Rev 17:9
And here is the mind which hath wisdom, The SEVEN HEADS
are seven Mountains [seven Kings/Kingdoms] on which the
Woman [Babylon] sitteth [rules over]. 10 And there are
Seven Kings; FIVE ARE FALLEN, AND ONE IS, and the
other [the Seventh King] is not yet come: [is still a future
event after John's vision] and when he comes he must
continue for a SHORT SPACE [aka, during Satan's
"Little Season"].

The SEVEN HEADS on the Revelations Beast (ruled by
the "harlot" Babylon) represent seven "Kings" and/or
"Mountains". These Kings are also shown as the
SEVEN HEADS of Daniel's four Kingdoms. They include
one head/king from Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom (Lion),
another head/king from Daniel's (2nd) Jewish Kingdom (Bear).
It includes four heads/kings from Daniel's (3rd) Christian
Kingdom (Leopard) and the last head/king is from Daniel's
(4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom... namely, the Anti-Christ
("Little Horn" or "False Prophet"), for a total of seven "Heads",
seven "Kings", seven "Mountains".

Five Kings "are fallen" because (when the Apostle John saw
the vision) the head/king from Daniel's (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
and the head/king from Daniel's (2nd) Jewish Kingdom were both
"fallen". In addition, three (out of the four) heads/kings from
Daniel's (3rd) Christian Kingdom were also "fallen"... for a total
of FIVE FALLEN KINGS. The last remaining head/king of the
New Testament Kingdom had not yet "fallen" because the last
head/king in the (3rd) Christian Kingdom was also the author
of the Book of Revelation, the Apostle John.

When John had the vision, the "King" of the (1st) Pre-Flood
Kingdom and the "King" of the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom were both
"fallen". In addition, three (out of the four) "Kings" in the (3rd)
Christian Kingdom had also already "fallen"... for a total of
FIVE FALLEN KINGS.

The one King that "is not yet come" [Rev 17:10] is the
"Little Horn" or "False Prophet" of the (4th) Great Tribulation
Kingdom. This is the Seventh "King" that arises after the
"testimony" of the Two Witnesses was "finished"
(after the Great Commission), when Satan is "loosened"
from the Bottomless Pit and given spiritual "dominion" over
the "Wise Virgins" during the "1st Woe".

It's the Seventh King that led the "Ten Virgins" out of the
(3rd) Christian Kingdom, as we "went forth" into the Fourth
Kingdom. It's the Seventh King that "overcomes" and then
"kills" the Saints during the Reign of the First Revelation "Beast".

However, the Seventh King only "continues a short space"
[Rev 17:10]. The Seventh King suffers an apparently fatal wound
at the END of the "1st Woe". But later he's resurrected as the
EIGHTH "King"... during the "2nd Woe", the Second Beast.

Rev 17:11
And the Beast that was, and is not, even he is THE EIGHTH,
and is OF THE SEVEN, and [the Eighth Head/King] goeth
into Perdition.

The EIGHTH King of the Revelations Beast is "of the seven"
because that King is the same "False Prophet" (the 7th King)
after he has been 'resurrected' from his near fatal "wound",
suffered at the end of the "1st Woe". The Eighth King is
the same False Prophet ruling over the "image" of the
First Revelations Beast. This shows the Fourth Kingdom
during the 6th Trumpet (the "2nd Woe").

It is this Eighth King that made everyone (in the 4th Kingdom)
worship the "image" of the First Beast. It was this Eighth King
that caused everyone (in the 4th Beast) to take the "Mark of
the Beast". It was this Eighth King that was cast alive into the
"Burning Flame" or "Lake-of-Fire" at the end of the 4th Kingdom
- as the Eighth King "goeth into Perdition".

The "Mystery of Babylon" is a New Testament Commentary
on Daniel's Four Kingdoms... from the standpoint of the Apostle
John, living before the Great Commission was finished - and
before Satan was "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit and given
"dominion" to rule (through his chief emissary the Anti-Christ)
during the Great Tribulation Kingdom.

.

Though sometimes I don't read lengthy posts in their entirety, but just rapidly glance through them instead, or maybe not even read through them at all, I did read what you submitted here from start to finish and that I could see the logic in what you were proposing until you got to the parts concerning Revelation 19:20.

And when we get to Revelation 19:20, this indicates we are in the end of this age, and that the fulfillment of that verse requires that Christ has bodily returned, as in the 2nd advent. Yet, what you propose ignores all of that. How is it even logical that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving the 2nd advent of Christ?

DavidPT · Jul 2, 2020

grafted branch said:
Something to consider with Revelation 17:8 is that the KJV has the last phrase as “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is”. NIV has “because he once was, now is not, and yet will come”; NIV has added “will come” to make it match the first part of the verse. I always look at YLT when something is in question.

The way I tend to reason some of this, 'was' is meaning when the beast wasn't in the pit. 'Is not' is meaning when the beast is in the pit. 'Shall ascend out of the pit' obviously meaning when he is no longer in the pit. A couple of things have to be asked and answered. Who is the beast that is in question here? And when and why did this beast initially get placed into the pit to begin with? This beast can't be meaning satan though, since Revelation 13 makes it clear that satan is the one who gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Also, the beast can't be satan because Revelation 20:10 already proves otherwise. And speaking of that, the false prophet is also cast into the LOF. So what about the false prophet and when the beast is in the pit? Where is the false prophet at that time? In the pit with him? Or maybe doesn't even exist yet? Where does the false prophet come from then, so on and so on?

And one final thing, The beast in question recovers from a mortal wound and is healed. When should we assume the mortal wound initially takes place. During the time he 'was' or during the time after he has emerged from the pit?

I realize you asked me some things in particular you were wanting my thoughts on, but currently I don't an opinion on some of that one way or the other since I need to ponder further what you brought up, and that I haven't had a lot of extra time to do that yet. You bring up some interesting points, I can say that for the time being.

5thKingdom · Jul 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
Though sometimes I don't read lengthy posts in their entirety, but just rapidly glance through them instead, or maybe not even read through them at all, I did read what you submitted here from start to finish and that I could see the logic in what you were proposing until you got to the parts concerning Revelation 19:20.

And when we get to Revelation 19:20, this indicates we are in the end of this age, and that the fulfillment of that verse requires that Christ has bodily returned, as in the 2nd advent. Yet, what you propose ignores all of that. How is it even logical that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving the 2nd advent of Christ?

That is a very good question:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This is the END of the Revelation Beast... which is Satan's spiritual Kingdom (of Babylon)

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night
for ever and ever.

This is the END of the World... which is Satan's physical/political "Kingdoms of Man"

There is a period called the "Season and Time" BETWEEN these two EVENTS

(1) The "Season and Time" is shown as the period AFTER Rev 19:20 when the Beast
is cast into the Lake of Fire and BEFORE Rev 20:10 when Satan and the "Kingdoms of Man"
JOIN THE BEAST IN THE LAKE.

(2) The "Season and Time" is shown as the period AFTER the end of the SECOND WOE
and BEFORE the START of the Third Woe [Rev 11:14]

(3) The "Season and Time" is shown as the period when the Last Saints are commanded
to "prophesy again" as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]

(4) The "Season and Time" is shown as the period AFTER the Final Harvest in Rev 18
when the Last Saints are commanded to "Come out of her, My people"... but BEFORE
Satan and the Kingdoms of the world are destroyed in Rev 20:10

(5) The "Season and Time" is shown as the period AFTER the Final Harvest in Rev 19
when the Last Saints are commanded to "gather yourselves together unto the SUPPER
of the Great God" and again as they are "called unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER of the Lamb"

(6) The "Season and Time" is shown AFTER the Final Harvest in Revelation 11
when the Last Saints are told to "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud".

(7) The "Season and Time" is shown AFTER the Final Harvest in Matthew 25
when "they that were ready went in with Him to the Marriage"... and the "Door was Shut"

(8) The "Season and Time" is shown AFTER the Final Harvest in Daniel 7
when "the Saints of the Most High shall take the Kingdom, and possess the Kingdom
forever, even for ever and ever" and again as "Judgment was given to the Saints of the
Most High; and the time came that the Saints possessed the [eternal] Kingdom".

Now, this is a hard doctrine... but here it is:

The Last Saints experience the "Final Harvest" BEFORE the end of the Revelation Beast
(which is also shown as the Great Tribulation and Daniel's Fourth Beast and the RULE of
the Anti-Christ during Satan's "Little Season")... however, we know [1Co 15] that the
Last Saints are still on earth when the resurrection occurs and we are "changed" into
our incorruptible spiritual bodies in "the twinkling of an eye". So WHAT is the nature
of the Final Harvest (which happens BEFORE Rev 19:20) and the fact is that it's a
spiritual harvest where the Saints join all the previous Saints to defeat the Beast...
and this Final Harvest and then the Final Battle is SHOWN in Revelation 19 as:

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him:
for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

And then Jesus and His armies are shown defeating Satan's spiritual Kingdom
of Babylon (the Revelation Beast) in Rev 19:11-20.

BUT the Last Saints BODIES remain on earth until Satan's "Kingdoms of Man"
are destroyed in Rev 20:10... at the Lord's Appearance and the resurrection
and Satan and Death are cast into the Lake.

So we are now in the period [Rev 11:14] when the Second Woe is PAST...
and the Last Saints are preaching the "unsealed" mysteries as the Seventh Trumpet
"begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]

What the previous Saints did not realize (because it was "closed-up" and "sealed"
until the Last Saints... Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10) is there is a relatively brief "Season and Time"
on earth BETWEEN the Beast and False Prophet being cast into the Lake-of-Fire [Rev 19:20]
and the time when Satan and his "Kingdoms of Man" JOIN THE BEAST IN THE LAKE [Rev 20:10]

The prophecy of the Last Saints is shown here:
https://www.5thkingdomofheaven.com/

I do encourage you to read chapter 1... the link takes you to chapter 2
Let me know if you have any questions, but I have told you the Truth
as we were commanded to do as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound"

I do realize this is NEW INFORMATION (because it was "closed-up" and "sealed"
but it has already been TESTED by some of the most esteemed theologians teaching
in some of the most prestigious seminaries in America and NONE OF THEM were able
to find even ONE VERSE in Scripture that contradicts anything on the website...
I invite you (and your church and pastor and elders) to try to do better.

BTW... I do NOT expect you to understand or believe any of this.
In fact the Bible PROMISES [Dan 8:10-12] that only the Last Saints
"shall understand". However, we were commanded to "prophesy again"
and that is what we are doing (there is only a handful of Saints left on earth)

I do encourage you to read chapter 8 about the fulfillment of Daniel's "Abomination".
I think you CAN understand that because there are about TWO DOZEN passages
talking about that event.

Sorry for the long post, but this is a BIG subject.

.

5thKingdom · Jul 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
And when we get to Revelation 19:20, this indicates we are in the end of this age, and that the fulfillment of that verse requires that Christ has bodily returned, as in the 2nd advent. Yet, what you propose ignores all of that. How is it even logical that Revelation 19:20 can be fulfilled without it involving the 2nd advent of Christ?

Matthew 24 is a very difficult chapter to understand because (like Revelation)
the EVENTS are not revealed in chronological order. But the verses below
answer your question:

Mat 24:27-28
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is,[the Lord]
there will the eagles [the Last Saints] be gathered together.

Mat 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:40-42
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:40-42 is talking about the Final Harvest... just like v31.
It is NOT talking about the "rapture". The ones that are left are the "foolish virgins"
of Matthew 25:1-13... the ones that are taken are the "wise virgins" of Matthew 25

Mat 25:10-13
And while they [the foolish virgins] went to buy, the bridegroom came;
and they that were ready [the wise virgins] went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord,
open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore,
for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

.

Dave L · Jul 2, 2020

The worst thing you can do to get an answer to your question is to conjure up the host of "shade tree prophecy mechanics" Stick with the historic Church by studying Amillennialism and get a clear and proven answer.

DavidPT · Jul 2, 2020

5thKingdom said:
Matthew 24 is a very difficult chapter to understand because (like Revelation)
the EVENTS are not revealed in chronological order. But the verses below
answer your question:

Mat 24:27-28
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is,[the Lord]
there will the eagles [the Last Saints] be gathered together.

Mat 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:40-42
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:40-42 is talking about the Final Harvest... just like v31.
It is NOT talking about the "rapture". The ones that are left are the "foolish virgins"
of Matthew 25:1-13... the ones that are taken are the "wise virgins" of Matthew 25

Mat 25:10-13
And while they [the foolish virgins] went to buy, the bridegroom came;
and they that were ready [the wise virgins] went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord,
open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore,
for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

.

This is interesting what you propose here, and that I actually follow your logic. Assuming you are correct, is what you are basically proposing about Matthew 24 as a whole, that the rapture is not even found in that chapter? Or if it is according to your understanding, where are you proposing it is found since the verses some of us take to mean the rapture, such as verse 31, you don't? Speaking of verse 31, if we compare it to it's parallel in Mark 13, the latter provides more details missing in Matthew 24:31.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

According to Mark 13:27, Matthew 24:31 should also mean the following---And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Why could---from the uttermost part of the earth---not be referring to those who alive and remain, thus who are raptured? And why could----to the uttermost part of heaven---not be referring to the dead in Christ who rise first?

grafted branch · Jul 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
This beast can't be meaning satan though, since Revelation 13 makes it clear that satan is the one who gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

I think the beast almost has to be Satan. Revelation 12:3 describes the red dragon as having seven heads and ten horns. Revelation 12:9 equates the dragon, that old serpent, the Devil, and Satan as the same entity. The vision John sees in Revelation 17:3 describes the beast as having seven heads and ten horns. The beast in Revelation 13:2 is described like a leopard, feet as a bear, and mouth of a lion; the other beast in verse11 has two horns like a lamb. I’m not following your logic here as to why the beast in Revelation 17:3 can’t be Satan.

DavidPT said:
Also, the beast can't be satan because Revelation 20:10 already proves otherwise. And speaking of that, the false prophet is also cast into the LOF.

In Revelation 20:10 KJV has “where the beast and false prophet are”. The word “are” is not in the original text. The Amplified Bible has “where the beast and false prophet were”. Depending on which translation you use can impact how you view the beast and false prophet. I think the beast and false prophet are Satan. From 2 Corinthians 11:14 we know that Satan is transformed into an angel of light. So the beast is Satan before the transformation and the false prophet is Satan after he is transformed.

DavidPT · Jul 2, 2020

grafted branch said:
In Revelation 20:10 KJV has “where the beast and false prophet are”. The word “are” is not in the original text. The Amplified Bible has “where the beast and false prophet were”. Depending on which translation you use can impact how you view the beast and false prophet. I think the beast and false prophet are Satan. From 2 Corinthians 11:14 we know that Satan is transformed into an angel of light. So the beast is Satan before the transformation and the false prophet is Satan after he is transformed.

That 'are' that is not present in the original manuscripts does not matter. What matters is, Revelation 20:10 is showing that 3 different entities in particular have been cast into the LOF, that being the beast, the false prophet, and satan. That adds up to three entities, not one or two instead.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil(one entity) that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast(another entity) and the false prophet(yet another entity, thus three entities total) are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Your interpretation is instead saying, there are only two entities who have been cast into the LOF according to Revelation 20:10, because you have the devil and the beast being the same entity. Yet they are not the same entity any more than the Father and the Son would be the same entity, even though Scripture indicates they are one.

Josheb · Jul 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

There are clearly 3 periods of time in view.

1) was

2) is not

3) shall ascend out of the bottomless pit

Currently which period of time are we living in?

Either the "last times" or the period between the "last days" (plural) of the old covenant's demise and the "last day (singular) when Christ returns and all are resurrected to face judgment.

And the best way to answer the question this op asks is other scripture, not the secular daily news feed. John's vision explicitly states the time was near and the word "near" is never used in the Bible to mean 20 or more centuries. This temporal qualification is stated at both the beginning and the end of John's vision. Both the "42 months" and the beast have come and gone. To say otherwise is to ignore the original intent of the author, the way the original audience would have understood what was written, and to make it meaningless for 20 centuries of Christians in which those events never happened. If, on the other hand, it is accepted the Revelation meant what it clearly states when read as written then we can learn from the fact God's word is true and learn from the principles ensconced in the word prophesied that was, in fact, fulfilled.

DavidPT, pick up a copy of Gary Demar's "Last Days Madness." Kim Riddlebarger's "The Case for Amillennialism" does a very good job of exegeting the scriptures in answer to this very question, "What period of time are we presently living in?" I strongly recommend you read that book. I don't agree with everything either of these authors write but they have been noteworthy with the handling the op-relevant scriptures.

DavidPT · Jul 2, 2020

Josheb said:
Both the "42 months" and the beast have come and gone.

If this is true, not only would this indicate Premil can't work, but neither can some versions of Amil work either. Both rely on the fact that the 42 month reign of the beast occurs in the end of this age followed by the 2nd advent of Christ, thus Christ's 2nd advent is what puts a stop to the beast for good.

Since you are convinced that the 42 month reign of the beast, and the beast itself, have come and gone, that has to be true of the false prophet as well, then. Who was the false prophet indentified with in the past? It should no longer be a mystery as to who or what the false prophet is meaning, if all of these events have already come and gone by now. Revelation 13 makes it clear that the beast does not act alone, the false prophet is a main player as well.

Such a main player that Revelation 19:20 makes mention of him again, and that he, along with the beast, are cast alive into a lake of fire. As to that, where is there proof per ancient history records that such an event has already occurred, where both the beast and false prophet have already been cast alive into the lake of fire? What was the exact date, to the day, month, and year, when this event allegedly happened? It shouldn't be a secret, as in no one actually knows the date, if this event has already happened, right?

As to your suggestion for me reading those proposed books, thanks but no thanks. That would be like me proposing you should read some books where the authors appear to be proving what I'm alleging, then you reading these books and changing your position altogether. Not going to happen.

5thKingdom · Jul 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
Why could---from the uttermost part of the earth---not be referring to those who alive and remain, thus who are raptured? And why could----to the uttermost part of heaven---not be referring to the dead in Christ who rise first?

EXACTLY

.

5thKingdom · Jul 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
As to your suggestion for me reading those proposed books, thanks but no thanks. That would be like me proposing you should read some books where the authors appear to be proving what I'm alleging, then you reading these books and changing your position altogether. Not going to happen.

Whatever... it is your choice.
But remember, (a) the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints
"shall understand" the Truth about Daniel's prophecies
for the first time in history [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]
and (b) Jesus PROMISES the Last Saints shall "see all of
these things" (referring to Great Tribulation prophecies)
and (c) the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints will preach
about these mysteries as the Seventh Trumpet
"begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]

If you choose to NOT listen to the prophecy of the
Last Saints (as PROMISED by the Bible in #a-#c above)
then that is entirely your loss.. not mine. And, of course,
I take no offense in your decision to remain willfully ignorant
of the prophecy of these things.

.

Douggg · Jul 2, 2020

5thKingdom said:
This is the END of the Revelation Beast... which is Satan's spiritual Kingdom (of Babylon)

There are multiple beasts in Revelation. You are acting like there is only one.

5thKingdom · Jul 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
Since you are convinced that the 42 month reign of the beast...

There is no 42 month reign of the Beast.
That is a doctrine based on ignorance and NOT harmonizing
ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES.

Here are SOME of the other Scriptures that talk about the
3.5 years (42 months) of the Revelation Beast... keep in mind
that the Bible offers over TWO DOZEN passages about this
period known as Daniel's "Abomination".

(1) The "Woman" which was hidden from the face of the
"serpent" for 3.5 "times" [Rev 12]

(2) The "Holy People" whose "power is scattered" by the
Anti-Christ for 3.5 "times" [Dan 12]

(3) The "Kings" that are "given into his hand" [into the
Anti-Christ's hand] for 3.5 "times" [Dan 7]

(4) The "Witnesses" which are first "overcome" and are
later "killed" by Satan for 3.5 "days" [Rev 11]

(5) The "Holy City" which the Anti-Christ "treads under foot"
for forty-two months or 3.5 "years" [Rev 11]

(6) The "Ruler of the Last Saints" as the Anti-Christ
"makes war" for forty-two months or 3.5 "years" [Rev 13]

While the people alive during Daniel's Fourth Kingdom are shown
[Mat 25] as the "Ten Virgins" that "went forth" into the Great
Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"... and they are shown [Dan 7]
as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns" that were "given into
the hand" of the Anti-Christ... and they are shown [Rev 17]
as the "Ten Kings" and the "Ten Horns" that "agree to give
their Kingdom to the Beast", the Bible contains dozens of
other passages talking about these same people and every
single one of those passages must be harmonized - before
anyone can even pretend to understand more than partial-truth.

.

Douggg · Jul 2, 2020

@DavidPT
@grafted branch

grafted branch said:
I think the beast almost has to be Satan. Revelation 12:3 describes the red dragon as having seven heads and ten horns. Revelation 12:9 equates the dragon, that old serpent, the Devil, and Satan as the same entity. The vision John sees in Revelation 17:3 describes the beast as having seven heads and ten horns. The beast in Revelation 13:2 is described like a leopard, feet as a bear, and mouth of a lion; the other beast in verse11 has two horns like a lamb. I’m not following your logic here as to why the beast in Revelation 17:3 can’t be Satan.

Could you each please finish the description of these beasts, who you think they are in this format. Just copy and paste - and finish the description.

1. The first beast in Revelation 13:1 represents....

2. The second beast in Revelation 13:11 represents ....

3. The scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17:3 represents.....

4. The beast in Revelation 17:8a represents......

5. The beast in Revelation 17:8b represents.....

6. The beast in Revelation 17:11 represents....

7. The beast in Revelation 19:20 represents....

5thKingdom · Jul 2, 2020

Douggg said:
There are multiple beasts in Revelation. You are acting like there is only one.

No Douggg... I sometimes say Revelation Beast instead of
Revelation Beast(s) because many people do NOT realize
there are TWO BEASTS.

In Fact, the Bible teaches that, during the Great Tribulation,
there are TWO WOES and TWO TRUMPETS and TWO "Heads"
and TWO "kings" and TWO Beasts.

So I am not "acting" otherwise...
but it was a good catch on your part to realize that
I did not say Revelation "Beast(s)" in some comment.

But I have been very clear the FIRST Beast happens during
the 1st Woe and Fifth Trumpet and 7th "head" and that the
SECOND Beast happens during the 2nd Woe and Sixth Trump
and 8th "head".

.

Douggg · Jul 2, 2020

@5thKingdom

Please finish the description of these beasts, who you think they are in this format. Just copy and paste - and finish the description. Please keep it simple.

1. The first beast in Revelation 13:1 represents....

2. The second beast in Revelation 13:11 represents ....

3. The scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17:3 represents.....

4. The beast in Revelation 17:8a represents......

5. The beast in Revelation 17:8b represents.....

6. The beast in Revelation 17:11 represents....

7. The beast in Revelation 19:20 represents....

5thKingdom · Jul 2, 2020

DavidPT said:
That 'are' that is not present in the original manuscripts does not matter. What matters is, Revelation 20:10 is showing that 3 different entities in particular have been cast into the LOF, that being the beast, the false prophet, and satan. That adds up to three entities, not one or two instead.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil(one entity) that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast(another entity) and the false prophet(yet another entity, thus three entities total) are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You are exactly correct.
I would only add that, in these passages, the False Prophet
represents the Anti-Christ that LEADS "the Beast" and the
Beast represents the followers of the Anti-Christ (his "kingdom")

The Bible can be confusing about this because sometimes
it calls the Anti-Christ ("Little Horn" or False Prophet") by
the name "Beast" and sometimes it calls the followers of
that MAN by the name "Beast" (which is his "kingdom")
The CONTEXT of each verse reveals which meaning is
in view.

.

DavidPT · Jul 2, 2020

5thKingdom said:
Whatever... it is your choice.
But remember, (a) the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints
"shall understand" the Truth about Daniel's prophecies
for the first time in history [Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10]
and (b) Jesus PROMISES the Last Saints shall "see all of
these things" (referring to Great Tribulation prophecies)
and (c) the Bible PROMISES the Last Saints will preach
about these mysteries as the Seventh Trumpet
"begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]

If you choose to NOT listen to the prophecy of the
Last Saints (as PROMISED by the Bible in #a-#c above)
then that is entirely your loss.. not mine. And, of course,
I take no offense in your decision to remain willfully ignorant
of the prophecy of these things.

.

Even though I haven't read the proposed books, I have read things here and there by Gary Demar and Kim Riddlebarger. Unless the proposed books are free, in general I'm not into any books that are trying to make a profit off the word of God, to begin with, even if the authors were promoting Premil. My Bible says, freely you have received, freely give. And I would think that should also apply to any insight from the Bible one feels they can share with others. But that's me, that's how I look at it and have always looked at it. For the ones who might disagree, to each his own I guess.

What period of time are we presently living in?

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