Blameless in the Law

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

  • Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.

  • No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.


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Scott Husted

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I think you are on to something. What God has revealed to man over time is progressive and directional. God when from protecting Cain the first murderer, with a mark to protect him from retribution, to commanding Noah that murderers must be put to death. If we consider the human race became so wicked God had to essentially end it in the flood, ostensibly as a result of protecting the murderer Cain. We subsequently observe the human race is not much better when we execute murderers. It seems to me that this is a divine invitation to conclude that temporal solutions to sin don't work. And God paints the evidence across history for us to draw this conclusion. Whatever "law" Abraham understood the notion of offering sacrifices to God was no news to either him or his son Isaac.

And God seems to lead this family more by providence than law from Abraham to Moses. Then Moses establishing judges which carry through to the time of Samuel, when we move into this kingdom period which is again noticeably different. But whether we are talking about the captivity or from Nehemiah to John the Baptist what God seems to he holding people responsible for, seems to be sharpened and refined across time.

Then Jesus fulfills the ceremonial law of the Jews by becoming high priest, and fulfills the civil law of the Jews by becoming King. The only law that has not been fulfilled is the moral law, because it is grounded in the holiness of God which is immutable, and thus can never be "fulfilled." I don't mean to say Jesus didn't keep it. He certainly did. What I do mean to say is that it's requirements can never be satisfied which is why our salvation, in part, turns on the impeccability of Christ.

Jesus did liken the kingdom of God as a seed in us .... a growing perception of self ...
 
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Mr. M

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I asked for evidence that when Jesus said "Every Word" HE didn't also mean Leviticus.

You didn't answer. Not sure why.

I'm not sure who is suggesting a man reject Every Word of God, except His Commandments. In fact, how is it possible to "only obey God's Law" and reject ANY of His Words?

Matthew 4:4. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

'every word' uses rhema=spoken word, 'proceeds from the mouth of God.'
The Gospel is clear that obedience is accomplished by way of the clean conscience
attentive to 'the Voice of God'.
Even as Solomon prayed for a "hearing heart".

1 Kings 3:9. Therefore give to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people,
that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?

Galatians 3:2. This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Never intended to be Leviticus!!!
Jeremiah 7:
22
For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.
 
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Studyman

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Matthew 4:4. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

'every word' uses rhema=spoken word, 'proceeds from the mouth of God.'
The Gospel is clear that obedience is accomplished by way of the clean conscience
attentive to 'the Voice of God'.
Even as Solomon prayed for a "hearing heart".

1 Kings 3:9. Therefore give to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people,
that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?

Galatians 3:2. This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Never intended to be Leviticus!!!

This is what "many" who come in Christ's Name teach. And no doubt they are convinced it is truth.

But to believe you in this matter, I must believe the Jews were trying to get the Galatians to Love God and Love their neighbor and all the Law and Prophets which hang on that. This is, of course, untrue if the Word's of Jesus regarding the Pharisees are to be believed. The Jews were not teaching obedience to God. They were preaching their version of the Levitical Priesthood "Works" of Atonement God gave to Levi by covenant on Mt. Sinai on Israel's behalf. A Law that was "ADDED" because of transgressions of God Laws, Statutes and Commandments Abraham was blessed for obeying.

This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? In other words, were you cleansed and joined to the Christ because a Levite Priest sprinkled blood on a stone as per the Priesthood atonement laws, or did you receive the Spirit by repenting from your own religious ways, turning to God and bringing works worthy of repentance.

As Peter said.

Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,

28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

And Paul;

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Leviticus was truly rejected by the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time, and also rejected by the mainstream preachers of our time. But Leviticus is where much of the "weightier matters of the law" that they omitted from their religion is located.

I think it is a mistake to follow their path of showing partiality in the law of God, and not the narrow path of Faithfulness Jesus walked

Jeremiah 7:
22
For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.

Jeremiah is confirming the point I am hoping to make. The Law that was "ADDED til the Seed should come" was the Priesthood atonement laws. But from the very beginning God simply expected His People to obey the Laws He created "For them".

1 Cor. 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

And again;

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

The "other religious voice" in the garden has always taught against submitting to God's Commandments. As the serpent convinced Eve that God's Commandment made her blind, so also will we be subject to the same "voice" in our time. I think this is why Jesus spoke of living by Every Word" of God and being a "doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only.

Does God care for oxen, or the length or our beard or fabric? Or is Paul telling the truth and those Laws in Leviticus and Duet. are "Written for our sake's? We just need to "study" to find what their purpose is as Paul instructed "ALL" to do.


Why was Leviticus written? For our sake's, no doubt!!!!
 
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Studyman

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Actually he amplified it into sonship ... which none of the prophets starting with Abraham (as being the first named prophet) perceived as well as those he spoke to in relationship to themselves.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

I think it's accurate to say Cain hated the Christ that was in the Prophet Abel. And killed him to silence this same Christ as did religious men through out the Holy scriptures. Abraham wasn't the first Prophet of God. At lease according to the Jesus of the Bible.
 
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Scott Husted

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the concept of God’s people being sons/children of God is not new.

Exodus 4:22


Deuteronomy 14:21


Deuteronomy 32:6


Malachi 2:10


Hosea 1:10


Hosea 11:1


Jeremiah 31:9


Isaiah 63:16


Isaiah 64:8


Psalms 89:26


Christ brought fuller meaning and revelation(which is what it means to fulfill) to what was already revealed through the prophets before him

A concept falls far short of his son being revealed in us as us ... according to Paul even he fell short of the purpose he felt he was born to, something he said was hid even from him until the one Jesus promised would come ( a truth not given yet at the time he said it) to lead us into this all truth that even eternity is not long enough to reveal.
 
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Mr. M

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Why was Leviticus written? For our sake's, no doubt!!!!
Speak for yourself only. Some people need to be commanded to not have sex with an animal.
To others the very thought is abhorrent.
Romans 2:
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,
and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them).
 
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Scott Husted

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Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

I think it's accurate to say Cain hated the Christ that was in the Prophet Abel. And killed him to silence this same Christ as did religious men through out the Holy scriptures. Abraham wasn't the first Prophet of God. At lease according to the Jesus of the Bible.

Abraham is actually the first named, though Adam was the first man to prophesy, whereas for Abel no words are ever attributed to him (outside of blood that cries from the ground), so Jesus consider his actions (his offering) much like Noah's a form of prophecy.

To me one of the many things they (Cain and Abel) speak to is the choice of Adam (like Abram's choice to leave the promise land (that bares the name of a cursed son) because of famine (though not outside the purpose of God or the pattern set forth in Adam) ... whom God separated the inhertiance in in the same manner he sent and drove him from the garden.

The firstborn is the natural the second the spiritual, even in us the natural man persecutes the spiritual man ... but also serves him to the end of the purpose of God as well.
 
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Studyman

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Speak for yourself only. Some people need to be commanded to not have sex with an animal.
To others the very thought is abhorrent.
Romans 2:
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,
and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them).

It is written that the Law is made for sinners. A man might abhor sex with animals, but is fine with scamming poor widows out of money. The same God which said don't do the first, also said don't do the second. Either way, these Laws were written for our sake's, no doubt. Certainly not written for God's sake.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Jesus said:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

These Gentiles Paul is speaking to had God's Laws written on their hearts. Were the "oracles of God" given to the Gentiles? No, they didn't have that advantage. Nevertheless, they had to have repented, they had to have "turned to God" and they had to have brought forth works worthy of repentance. The Bible teaches there is no other way.

Consider Paul's other words in Romans 2.

Rom. 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision (Gentiles) which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I think this is why the Christ said to "cling unto Him" and to "live by" Every Word of God. In this way we can discern between God's Word, and the "Other voice" in the garden. As Paul himself said.

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Rom. 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
 
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Studyman

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Abraham is actually the first named, though Adam was the first man to prophesy, whereas for Abel no words are ever attributed to him (outside of blood that cries from the ground), so Jesus consider his actions (his offering) much like Noah's a form of prophecy.

To me one of the many things they (Cain and Abel) speak to is the choice of Adam (like Abram's choice to leave the promise land (that bares the name of a cursed son) because of famine (though not outside the purpose of God or the pattern set forth in Adam) ... whom God separated the inhertiance in in the same manner he sent and drove him from the garden.

The firstborn is the natural the second the spiritual, even in us the natural man persecutes the spiritual man ... but also serves him to the end of the purpose of God as well.

I'm sure Abel said words, and Jesus did consider him an equal in the list of His Prophets, not judging or classifying them as many do, but calling him a Prophet same as all His Prophets. That was my only point.
 
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Mr. M

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I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
It is written that the Law is made for sinners.
Romans 2:
for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,
and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them).
The point I was presenting was made by Paul. We are not far apart. I have studied the Bible for over 55 years. I know the Law, and I know what makes me righteous. YHWH desired a people who would walk like Abraham.
Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. [430 years before the Law was given]
In my first message I posted this:
Jeremiah 7:
22
For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.

Only the Ten Commandments were given at Sinai. The rest was given later because of transgressions. Why? The people did not want to hear the Voice of God.

Exodus 20:19. Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”
 
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Strong in Him

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Jesus was not Partial in the Law. You can not find a place where HE said we are free to Judge any of God's Word as unworthy of our respect.

And you clearly can't find a place where he said that all Gentiles who believed in him and had received eternal life, HAD to keep all the laws in Leviticus.

The mainstream preachers of Jesus time had also judged much of God's Word as unworthy of their honor, and omitted much of God's Law just as the mainstream religions of the land I was born into does. These are simply facts. Do they matter? That is another discussion, first we must accept that according to the Bible, it was being "partial in the Law" and "omitting" much of it, that caused the downfall of the religion Jesus was born into. It seems foolish to allow ourselves to be convinced by "other voices" that we can do the same things and escape their judgment.

So - DO you believe that "God's word" includes ALL the promises written in Leviticus, and Exodus and Deuteronomy? And do you keep the?

Absolutely.

And yet you haven't.

Jesus, as the Word of God, before becoming Flesh, had the following written for Jew and Gentile. The mainstream religion of HIS Time rejected these "Sayings" of the Christ. I have chosen not to follow that path.

The laws that were given to the Hebrews at Mt Sinai, through Moses, were for those who had been rescued from Egypt by God. That might have included some who wanted to convert to the faith - Egyptians who wanted to escape the final plague, trusted in the God of Abraham and put themselves under the protection of the lamb's blood. But Gentiles were not under God's law and included as God's people unless they trusted in the One God and converted to the faith.

I, personally, have no Jewish ancestors. I am connected with Judaism in that the Lord Jesus and the early church were all Jews; that's it. But as they taught at the council of Jerusalem, Gentiles did not have to convert to Judaism before they could find salvation in Jesus.

Do you believe that Zacharias understood these sayings? And if so, why. According to the Scriptures, what was the main difference between him, and the Pharisees? Somehow I don't think you will answer that question.

I don't understand the question.

Do you mean Zechariah? If so, which one; the prophet? The father of John the Baptist or one of the other 26 men, apparently, in Scripture who bear that name?
Why are you asking about Zechariah when you quoted from Isaiah?
Whoever this person is, what have they got to do with the Pharisees?

I'm not sure you have any Biblical support for your implication that when Jesus said "Every Word" HE intended Leviticus to be excluded.

I'm not sure that you have any support for your belief that it was included; just assumption that it must have been.

The Cleansing Laws and Sacrifices were part of the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf. Heb. 7 says that Covenant changed, and Jesus is now our New High Priest.

Exactly.
So are we, who are saved by, belong to and told to live in the new High Priest - Jesus himself - bound by the laws of the Old Covenant, which as you said, changed?

Paul was living By Every Word of God here. He knew what the meaning of the Law He referenced was because He understood that God had these Word's written for "OUR" admonition. For "OUR Sake's" HE wrote "Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn" He didn't reject it. He didn't imply it was a stupid Law impossible to follow because he didn't own an Ox. He was teaching this Law and it's meaning to the Gentiles he also told to "Study" to show themselves approved of God.

Well as I don't have an oxen, that makes it a very easy word to obey.
I never said any of these laws were stupid, I was asking if you believe we are bound by them. I don't.

Does God care about beard length?

No idea - it's one of the laws in Leviticus that you seem to think we need to keep.
I don't have a beard, personally, so it's not a problem.

Or is there an important meaning behind these Words?

You tell me.
You are arguing that when Jesus said we should believe every word that God spoke, that includes Leviticus. One of the commands in Leviticus is that you shall not trim the end of your beard; I'm asking you, as a believer that Leviticus has to be kept today, if you keep it.

I find it amazing that Jesus can say we must drink His Blood to inherit His Father's Kingdom and religious men are perfectly OK with that symbolism, studying to understand what HE means by "drinking His Blood". But these same religious men seem to have so little respect for His Father that they offer Him a different treatment.

I don't understand what you mean by that.
What I have been asking all along is, when you say we need to keep every word of God, does that include ALL the laws in Leviticus?"
If so, do you keep them - including the one abut the beard?

According to the Jesus of the Bible, there is no Jew or Greek. His Instruction is for everyone.

No, Jesus didn't say that; Paul did.
You've just acknowledged that there was an old covenant which changed and Jesus is now our high priest. Hebrews says that he is high priest of a NEW Covenant.

The Jews, who didn't believe in Jesus, still relied on these Priesthood "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins. This is the Law that was "ADDED" to God's Commandments, God's Statutes, and God's Laws that Abraham obeyed.

This law, offering animals as sacrifice for sin, is explained in Leviticus; a book of the Bible which you seem certain we should keep.

Yes, these Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" have truly become old and obsolete.

So there ARE parts of God's word that we don't keep?

Again, Circumcision is now and has always been of the heart.

Not always; in Abraham and Moses' day, another organ of the body was involved.


I don't need to understand it.
I'm not a Jew and Jesus is my High Priest.

I really don't understand the rest of your post.
You seem adamant that as we have to obey EVERY word of God, there is no reason why that shouldn't include Leviticus. But then you say that sacrificial laws are obsolete and we have a new high priest and the old covenant its obsolete - as well as asking questions about why God is concerned with beard length.

It's quite simple - Leviticus (and Exodus and Deuteronomy) is either included in the every word from God which we are to keep, or it isn't. And if it is, that means EVERY word - you don't get to pick and choose from the laws in there, and you can't say that half the laws are obsolete.
 
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Scott Husted

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I'm sure Abel said words, and Jesus did consider him an equal in the list of His Prophets, not judging or classifying them as many do, but calling him a Prophet same as all His Prophets. That was my only point.

I realize ... but there is a point to no words as much as there is a point to words ... like the phrase "there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

Truth is a seed no matter what form it comes in.
 
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Strong in Him

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the commandment doesn’t say “keeping a sabbath day”, it says keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy. What Christ was teaching was from the law - he was taking the law a step further, and teaching us how to properly keep and apply the law, nor do away with it.

I didn't say he was teaching us to do away with the law.
He fulfilled it.

in fact, if it wasn’t for the law, Christ wouldn’t have had anything to teach...

I think he would!
He taught his disciples that where 2 or 3 were gathered - not the 10 required for a Synagogue - he was there with them. He taught that the Kingdom of God had arrived, even though it was not yet there in its fulness. He taught that they could call God, "Abba", or daddy. He taught that it is not what goes into the mouth that makes someone unclean but what comes out of it. He showed that he had power over sickness, death, the waves and the weather. He taught that the devil is a liar and a murderer from the beginning. He taught that the law and prophets spoke about him, and that he fulfilled prophecy. He taught that his blood would be shed for many for the forgiveness of sins. He taught that after Pentecost, God's Spirit would be IN them. He taught them to "do this in memory of him."

I can’t keep all the commands in Leviticus, so no, not every single command is expected to be kept. I keep what is applicable to me as a man, and what is able to be kept.

So God has given a law which is for us but which we are unable to keep - or only select parts?

we can abstain from homosexuality, inappropriate behavior with animals, incest, witchcraft, having sex during a period, eating unclean animals etc. that can be done by anybody anywhere.

Yes, but the latter 2 don't need to be.

love your neighbor as yourself comes from Leviticus, btw.

I know; I realised that after I had written it.

By quoting and upholding a commandment from Leviticus, you yourself are actually teaching adherence to the book.

No - you've just said yourself that it can't all be kept.

The burden on you is to prove that God’s children no longer need to obey the law - not for me to prove we do.

No it isn't.
If Jesus had said "all Gentile believers in me HAVE to keep all the Jewish law", then clearly we would. He didn't say that, or anything like it. So to assume that that's what he meant is just that; an assumption. Keeping the laws in Leviticus that you are able to keep, was not one of Jesus' teachings. He did not tell the 11 to go into the world and teach certain chunks of Leviticus - he said "go and teach everything I have commanded you". So you need to show where he commanded them to teach obedience to the law.

according to Deuteronomy 13, if a prophet teaches us not to obey God, then we should not listen to them, because God is testing us to see if we will obey his commandments. That prophet is worthy of death - so if you accuse Christ, Paul or any apostles or disciple of teaching us to not obey God’s laws and commandments, you are accusing them of being false prophets and sentencing them to death.

The law that we keep is the 10 commandments, summed up by Christ as "love God and love your neighbour as yourself" - plus the commands that Jesus gave; to love as he loves us, to go into the world and make disciples, to "do this in memory of me", and others. If this is what you mean by "law" - love God and one another, then, absolutely.
The law that we do not keep is the food and hygiene laws - no clothes of mixed fabrics, no fields planted with more than one crop, refrain from certain kinds of animals, skin diseases etc make a person unclean and you must not touch them, nor anything they have touched. You, yourself, have said that we cannot keep all these laws and not all are applicable.
So if these are what you mean by law, then, no.

Paul taught that circumcision was not only not necessary, but they if they received it, they were saying that Christ died for nothing.
Paul, and James, said that if they believed in trying to get salvation by keeping the law, they had to keep the WHOLE law - which would surely mean the food and hygiene laws, as well as stoning people for certain offences.

Christ taught obedience to the law in Matthew 5 to the general public

He wasn't teaching obedience to the law; he said he had come to fulfil the law.
He wasn't talking to the general public in Matt 5, but to his disciples. Verse 1, "his disciples came to him and he began to teach THEM".
 
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Studyman

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The point I was presenting was made by Paul. We are not far apart. I have studied the Bible for over 55 years. I know the Law, and I know what makes me righteous. YHWH desired a people who would walk like Abraham.
Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. [430 years before the Law was given]
In my first message I posted this:
Jeremiah 7:
22
For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.

Only the Ten Commandments were given at Sinai. The rest was given later because of transgressions. Why? The people did not want to hear the Voice of God.

Exodus 20:19. Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”

I appreciate that you have studied. And much of what you say seems to be in line with scriptures. And I don't want to be argumentative here or judgmental. But since you have studied you know that the Pharisees also studied, for centuries. JW study the Bible as well as Catholics and the men in Matt. 7 who called Jesus Lord, Lord. So just the truth that religious men study the Bible is no guarantee they come away with HIS truth. As it is written;

Ecc. 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

My issue with much of mainstream teaching is what you stated above.

"Only the Ten Commandments were given at Sinai. The rest was given later because of transgressions."

If I may humbly point something out here for our benefit. What was "ADDED, because of Transgressions, Til the Seed should come" was not the Commandment "though shall love thy neighbor as thyself". This is universally taught, just as the mainstream preachers of Jesus' time taught it was against God's Law to take a walk on His Sabbath and eat a strawberry or ear of corn. But it is not true.

Just think about it for a minute my friend. What must happen for a transgressor of God's Commandments? I would say Atonement, Yes? A man who sins must have this sin removed to enter God's Kingdom. So in Moses time, what did God direct a man who sinned to do for his sin to be forgiven?

Did God tell Moses, "if a man sins, he shall "love his neighbor as himself" and his sin was forgiven? Was he instructed to "not vex a stranger" and his sin was forgiven? According to the Scriptures, the answer is no. But that is what you are implying in your statement. That God "ADDED" all these other Laws because of Transgressions, "til the Seed should come". Are you then really teaching that when the Word of God became Flesh, the command to "not hate your brother in your heart" became old and obsolete? I don't believe you really think that, but this doctrine you are promoting implies just that.

I might humbly ask you to consider another understanding.

According to the Law and Prophets, God told Moses that if a man sins, he is to take an animal, a clean animal, to the appointed Levite Priest, who would then perform sacrificial, ceremonial "works of atonement laws" (Law of sin offering, Law of meat offering, etc) These Laws were given specifically to men of the tribe of Levi who God separated from the other 11 tribes, to administer for HIM in the Priest's office, until a Prophet, like unto Moses, also called the Seed, shall come.

This "Law" provided for 2 things, #1. The administration of God's Laws. (To reveal the righteousness of God, Rom. 1:17) #2. The atonement for the sins of the people, until the Seed should come. This same God also promised that "after those days" HE would provide for the administrations of God Law Himself. No longer would men need to seek out a Levite Priest, but the SEED Himself shall write the Laws of God on His peoples heart.

And HE would provide for the atonement of men's sins. No longer would it be required by Law to seek out a Levite Priest and give him a goat for the atonement of his sin.

It is this Priesthood Covenant that God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, because of Transgressions, til the Seed should come. A Law Abraham did not have as Paul points out. A Law that became old and obsolete.

This is the Old Covenant the Christ of the Bible is speaking about in Jer. 31. This is the Covenant that changed. This is the Law that was "ADDED" because of transgressions. Not the Commandments, Statutes, and Laws of God gave to HIS People.

And the Jer. verse you posted confirms this.

Jeremiah 7:
22 For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them
in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

No, the Law requiring Aaron and his sons to perform sacrificial ceremonial "works" for justification, was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, til the Seed should come.


23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.

As it is written "To obey is better than sacrifice". Obey what? "Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God" as our Lord Jesus instructs. (Idolatry, eating blood, adultery in our hearts, etc)

I hope you might reconsider what the Scriptures teach regarding what Law was Added, that became obsolete.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (EX. 32)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Shepherds who corrupted the Covenant God made with them on Israel's behalf) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

No more Levites to perform "works of the law" for justification, and no Levites to filter God's Words to us. God Himself atones for our sins, and God Himself writes His Laws on our hearts.

A new and better way.
 
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Studyman

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I realize ... but there is a point to no words as much as there is a point to words ... like the phrase "there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

Truth is a seed no matter what form it comes in.

Deception is also a seed, no matter what form it comes in. "a little leaven leavens the whole lump".

Just be careful my friend.
 
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Mr. M

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I hope you might reconsider what the Scriptures teach regarding what Law was Added, that became obsolete.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (EX. 32)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Shepherds who corrupted the Covenant God made with them on Israel's behalf) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

No more Levites to perform "works of the law" for justification, and no Levites to filter God's Words to us. God Himself atones for our sins, and God Himself writes His Laws on our hearts.

A new and better way.
I am fine with this.
Do You Magnify The Law?

I might humbly ask you to consider another understanding.

According to the Law and Prophets, God told Moses that if a man sins, he is to take an animal, a clean animal, to the appointed Levite Priest, who would then perform sacrificial, ceremonial "works of atonement laws" (Law of sin offering, Law of meat offering, etc) These Laws were given specifically to men of the tribe of Levi who God separated from the other 11 tribes, to administer for HIM in the Priest's office, until a Prophet, like unto Moses, also called the Seed, shall come.

This "Law" provided for 2 things, #1. The administration of God's Laws. (To reveal the righteousness of God, Rom. 1:17) #2. The atonement for the sins of the people, until the Seed should come. This same God also promised that "after those days" HE would provide for the administrations of God Law Himself. No longer would men need to seek out a Levite Priest, but the SEED Himself shall write the Laws of God on His peoples heart.

Okay, but you have to be a little more specific.

Leviticus 4:2. “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them.

Hebrews 10:42. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

Psalm 19:

12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;
Let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be innocent of [g]great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Your sight,
O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/do-you-magnify-the-law.8166029/


I appreciate that you have studied. And much of what you say seems to be in line with scriptures. And I don't want to be argumentative here or judgmental. But since you have studied you know that the Pharisees also studied, for centuries. JW study the Bible as well as Catholics and the men in Matt. 7 who called Jesus Lord, Lord. So just the truth that religious men study the Bible is no guarantee they come away with HIS truth.

Thank you for that reminder. I realize it is not study alone. I started teaching after retirement.
I write from a place of devotion and intimacy with the Holy Spirit. I am now 64, is that not what an elder is? I do not rely on the fact that I have studied. I rely on the fact that I have spent much time in the crucible, and found my Lord to be always faithful, and know that my sufficiency is not of myself. I can only teach as I am willing to be taught. Let us continue in a love affair with The Spirit of Truth.



 
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Mr. M

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I appreciate that you have studied. And much of what you say seems to be in line with scriptures. And I don't want to be argumentative here or judgmental. But since you have studied you know that the Pharisees also studied, for centuries. JW study the Bible as well as Catholics and the men in Matt. 7 who called Jesus Lord, Lord. So just the truth that religious men study the Bible is no guarantee they come away with HIS truth. As it is written;

Ecc. 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

My issue with much of mainstream teaching is what you stated above.

"Only the Ten Commandments were given at Sinai. The rest was given later because of transgressions."

If I may humbly point something out here for our benefit. What was "ADDED, because of Transgressions, Til the Seed should come" was not the Commandment "though shall love thy neighbor as thyself". This is universally taught, just as the mainstream preachers of Jesus' time taught it was against God's Law to take a walk on His Sabbath and eat a strawberry or ear of corn. But it is not true.

Just think about it for a minute my friend. What must happen for a transgressor of God's Commandments? I would say Atonement, Yes? A man who sins must have this sin removed to enter God's Kingdom. So in Moses time, what did God direct a man who sinned to do for his sin to be forgiven?

Did God tell Moses, "if a man sins, he shall "love his neighbor as himself" and his sin was forgiven? Was he instructed to "not vex a stranger" and his sin was forgiven? According to the Scriptures, the answer is no. But that is what you are implying in your statement. That God "ADDED" all these other Laws because of Transgressions, "til the Seed should come". Are you then really teaching that when the Word of God became Flesh, the command to "not hate your brother in your heart" became old and obsolete? I don't believe you really think that, but this doctrine you are promoting implies just that.

I might humbly ask you to consider another understanding.

According to the Law and Prophets, God told Moses that if a man sins, he is to take an animal, a clean animal, to the appointed Levite Priest, who would then perform sacrificial, ceremonial "works of atonement laws" (Law of sin offering, Law of meat offering, etc) These Laws were given specifically to men of the tribe of Levi who God separated from the other 11 tribes, to administer for HIM in the Priest's office, until a Prophet, like unto Moses, also called the Seed, shall come.

This "Law" provided for 2 things, #1. The administration of God's Laws. (To reveal the righteousness of God, Rom. 1:17) #2. The atonement for the sins of the people, until the Seed should come. This same God also promised that "after those days" HE would provide for the administrations of God Law Himself. No longer would men need to seek out a Levite Priest, but the SEED Himself shall write the Laws of God on His peoples heart.

And HE would provide for the atonement of men's sins. No longer would it be required by Law to seek out a Levite Priest and give him a goat for the atonement of his sin.

It is this Priesthood Covenant that God made with Levi on Israel's behalf, because of Transgressions, til the Seed should come. A Law Abraham did not have as Paul points out. A Law that became old and obsolete.

This is the Old Covenant the Christ of the Bible is speaking about in Jer. 31. This is the Covenant that changed. This is the Law that was "ADDED" because of transgressions. Not the Commandments, Statutes, and Laws of God gave to HIS People.

And the Jer. verse you posted confirms this.

Jeremiah 7:
22 For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them
in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

No, the Law requiring Aaron and his sons to perform sacrificial ceremonial "works" for justification, was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, til the Seed should come.


23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.

As it is written "To obey is better than sacrifice". Obey what? "Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God" as our Lord Jesus instructs. (Idolatry, eating blood, adultery in our hearts, etc)

I hope you might reconsider what the Scriptures teach regarding what Law was Added, that became obsolete.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (EX. 32)

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Shepherds who corrupted the Covenant God made with them on Israel's behalf) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

No more Levites to perform "works of the law" for justification, and no Levites to filter God's Words to us. God Himself atones for our sins, and God Himself writes His Laws on our hearts.

A new and better way.
P.S. This was a lot to digest. I did my best to reply in Sincerity and Truth. It was a bit difficult at times and I hope I didn't make things more confusing.
brother james
 
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Studyman

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Is. 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?

20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

I do not consider myself as a magnifier of God's Law, but I do believe Jesus came to restore it. And I believe in Him.

Is. 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.




"Secret thoughts" would be thoughts unknown.

But I agree, religious men who flat out reject God's Commandments even after they see the Commandment, are in trouble to be sure. But most all of these people have been convinced they are already saved. That God's Laws, or definition of sin, have become obsolete. The Holy Scriptures do not teach this. Shall we not warn others of these things?

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Thank you for that reminder. I realize it is not study alone. I started teaching after retirement.
I write from a place of devotion and intimacy with the Holy Spirit. I am now 64, is that not what an elder is? I do not rely on the fact that I have studied. I rely on the fact that I have spent much time in the crucible, and found my Lord to be always faithful, and know that my sufficiency is not of myself. I can only teach as I am willing to be taught. Let us continue in a love affair with The Spirit of Truth.

Amen

A truth to be sure.
 
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Studyman

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P.S. This was a lot to digest. I did my best to reply in Sincerity and Truth. It was a bit difficult at times and I hope I didn't make things more confusing.
brother james


Not at all. The main point I hope to make is that the New Covenant, according to the creator of the New Covenant, was not the abolition of God's Laws as many on this forum promote, but the changing of the manner in which God's Laws are administered and the manner in which transgressions of those Laws were atoned for. I believe there has been a huge deception perpetrated by the religions of the land which preach that when Paul says "Works of the Law" for justification, he is speaking about the entire Law of God, and not the Priesthood duties given to Levi for the atonement of sins. A Law the Jews were still bewitching the Gentiles with, as they didn't believe the "Seed had come" and were still relying on the Levitical Priesthood Atonement Law for Righteousness.

I truly appreciate your input given your years of study. You have 2 years on me in age, but I have only denied myself and followed the Christ of the Bible since 1996.

Thank you so much for the discussion sir.

With His Love, Greg.
 
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