Blameless in the Law

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

  • Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.

  • No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.


Results are only viewable after voting.

Thistle

Member
Jun 16, 2004
23
1
✟1,643.00
Faith
Christian
Loving God with all your heart is an idiom which means obeying his commandments(His law).

I think you are taking a logical argument pulled from John in his epistles, applying it here and turning this into an idiom, which I believe is too much to claim for it, particularly in it's own context.

You can’t love the God of Jacob with all your heart and not obey his law.

Fair enough, but loving God with ALL YOUR HEART is aspirational at best. Stephen was stoned proclaiming God's word, but I'll bet dollars to donuts if we button hole him in heaven, he would be the first to admit that he could have loved God even more in his temporal life, no matter how inconceivable that may seem to us.

Maybe you can for some other god, but not the God of Israel.

Loving God and loving your neighbor is what all of the law is based on, but they do not make up the entire law.

Don't the rabbinical scholars say there are 613 laws in the Old Testament? The New Testament has that licked by a long shot with over a thousand imperative commands. You can make an excellent case that the New Testament law is twice as exhaustive as the Old Testament. And as far as the ten commandments, each and everyone was reaffirmed in the New Testament except keeping the Sabbath.

Where did Messiah teach you or anybody to disobey God’s law ?

Never! We have an absolute obligation to do everything we've been instructed to do. The question is not whether or not we have the obligation, it's what is the consequence of our INEVITABLE FAILURE?
I think the answer needs to sound like we we raise ourselves to our knees express our sincere contrition to God, and avail ourselves to the power of the Holy Spirit not to fail on the same points over and over again. Am I missing something?
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,771
7,916
NW England
✟1,041,403.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Loving God with all your heart is an idiom which means obeying his commandments(His law).

Jesus said that the 10 commandments could be summed up in 2; love your God and love your neighbour.
Loving God involves having no other god, no idols, not making images of idols or worshipping things, not taking his name in vain and keeping a day of sabbath rest, just as he did. Loving your neighbour as yourself means not murdering them or taking anything that belongs to them; their wife or property, not stealing, coveting or telling lies against them. Jesus said, "treat others as you would like them to treat you".
He also gave us a new commandment; to love as he loves.
These, and other commands that Jesus gave; we keep.
The OT law given to Moses, was not given to us.

We can’t love God without doing what it takes to love God, which is obey his laws, statutes & commandments.

No one has yet confirmed whether this means ALL the commands written in Leviticus.
This was the law, given by God, to the Hebrew slaves whom he had rescued from Egypt; not to Gentiles.

Loving God and loving your neighbor is what all of the law is based on, but they do not make up the entire law.

So you do keep the commands in Leviticus?
Even the Jews can no longer keep all of those; they never could, and nowadays they don't do animal sacrifices.

Where did Messiah teach you or anybody to disobey God’s law ?

Where did Jesus teach that the Gentiles who trusted in him for forgiveness and eternal life should keep all the laws given to Hebrew slaves centuries before?
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,116
618
65
Michigan
✟318,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
EVERY word that's written in Leviticus?
He didn't teach his followers that they also had to do that.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Lev. 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Can you show me the "parts" of His Father's Commandments in Leviticus that Jesus said we are suppose to reject? It's a big deal to imply Jesus didn't teach His People to obey His Father. You should be able to find His Word's which instruct us to do so.

I found and posted HIS instruction to "Live by" Every Word of God, but I can't find His instruction to be "partial" in the Law.

Can you please show me His Word's which support this statement of yours?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dkh587
Upvote 0

Scott Husted

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2020
860
376
64
Virginia Beach
✟57,000.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Lev. 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Can you show me the "parts" of His Father's Commandments in Leviticus that Jesus said we are suppose to reject? It's a big deal to imply Jesus didn't teach His People to obey His Father. You should be able to find His Word's which instruct us to do so.

I found and posted HIS instruction to "Live by" Every Word of God, but I can't find His instruction to be "partial" in the Law.

Can you please show me His Word's which support this statement of yours?

We live by every word not just the Law ...
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,116
618
65
Michigan
✟318,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We live by every word not just the Law ...

I asked for evidence that when Jesus said "Every Word" HE didn't also mean Leviticus.

You didn't answer. Not sure why.

I'm not sure who is suggesting a man reject Every Word of God, except His Commandments. In fact, how is it possible to "only obey God's Law" and reject ANY of His Words?
 
Upvote 0

Scott Husted

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2020
860
376
64
Virginia Beach
✟57,000.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I asked for evidence that when Jesus said "Every Word" HE didn't also mean Leviticus.

You didn't answer. Not sure why.

I'm not sure who is suggesting a man reject Every Word of God, except His Commandments. In fact, how is it possible to "only obey God's Law" and reject ANY of His Words?

Mine was an answer actually, it depends on where one views it from ... the Bible or the Torah/Law (for Jesus even the Psalms was Law) is not the only words, or ways for that matter that God speaks.

The Law becomes this (dispute) to us because of the narrative or dialogue of duality (in ourselves).

Who are you for, us or our enemies, neither ... is an answer from one who has the perspective of a single eye; a truth where the light is full.
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,771
7,916
NW England
✟1,041,403.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Can you show me the "parts" of His Father's Commandments in Leviticus that Jesus said we are suppose to reject?

Can you show me where Jesus even mentioned Leviticus, and told his disciples to keep all the laws found in it?

It's a big deal to imply Jesus didn't teach His People to obey His Father. You should be able to find His Word's which instruct us to do so.

If he had expected his Gentile followers to start obeying a law that was not given to them, he would have said so - and you should be able to quote the Scripture which says that.
There are a great many laws in Leviticus that Jesus did not comment on at all - rising to greet your elders, Leviticus 19:32, not trimming your beard or the hair at the side of your head, Leviticus 19:27, the kinds of discharges that make people unclean, and what to do about them, Leviticus 15, and so on. In Leviticus 17, the eating of blood is forbidden - yet Jesus told his followers that his blood was of the new covenant and they would not have eternal life unless they drank it, John 6:53. Chapters 1-6 of Leviticus talk about the sacrifices they were to make for sin - yet Jesus gave his life once and for all for sin.
So where does he say, "yes, you and all the Gentiles who come to me, need to keep, or start keeping, all these things?

I found and posted HIS instruction to "Live by" Every Word of God, but I can't find His instruction to be "partial" in the Law.

And yet we are, and have to be.
The law taught that they should offer animal sacrifices for sin - but we don't do that; Jesus died for our sins. Even Jews don't offer animal sacrifices any more.
The law taught that they should be circumcised - women have never had to do that.
The law taught tithing - anyone who teaches tithing today says it is about money. NO ONE takes 10% of the crops that they have grown on their allotments to church so that everyone can eat and praise God for his provision. Giving 10% of your money to God (i.e the church) is a thing in a number of churches; but that's not tithing as laid down in Scripture.
The law taught that they were to celebrate festivals "in the place where God put his name". Later, this was the temple; later still, after Israel split, the 10 tribes were criticised for making shrines and offering at places where God had not put his name. But today, WE bear the name of Christ, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit - and we are not told to remember festivals which related to the exodus from Egypt but are told to "do this in memory of me".

So even if a man wanted to keep all the laws laid down in Leviticus, he could not - and women could only keep some of them anyway.
But Jesus didn't say that this was necessary.

Can you please show me His Word's which support this statement of yours?

Can you please show me where Jesus explicitly taught that Gentile believers were, and are, expected to keep all the laws in Leviticus?
 
Upvote 0

Junia

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
2,795
1,387
42
Bristol
✟31,159.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

Yes, I agree. It is not impossible because Jesus has given us His righteousness to those of us who have received Him (repented of sins and put their trsut in Him) This makes us fit for heaven.

Now, having been saved, how do we sin less and become more like Jesus? Well, it is only possible by the holy spirit working in us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HARK!
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Scott Husted

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2020
860
376
64
Virginia Beach
✟57,000.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Laws end is about establishing a deep personal relationship with our Father through his son/word, but it still slays first today as it did when it was first given which simply is part of the process or cup we drink of, something that relates to everyone who is born of God.

Posts about the law are meaningless without seeing it in the light of the purpose of God no longer hid.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: misput
Upvote 0

Dkh587

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 6, 2014
3,049
1,770
Southeast
✟552,407.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Jesus said that the 10 commandments could be summed up in 2; love your God and love your neighbour.
Loving God involves having no other god, no idols, not making images of idols or worshipping things, not taking his name in vain and keeping a day of sabbath rest, just as he did. Loving your neighbour as yourself means not murdering them or taking anything that belongs to them; their wife or property, not stealing, coveting or telling lies against them. Jesus said, "treat others as you would like them to treat you".
He also gave us a new commandment; to love as he loves.
These, and other commands that Jesus gave; we keep.
The OT law given to Moses, was not given to us.



No one has yet confirmed whether this means ALL the commands written in Leviticus.
This was the law, given by God, to the Hebrew slaves whom he had rescued from Egypt; not to Gentiles.



So you do keep the commands in Leviticus?
Even the Jews can no longer keep all of those; they never could, and nowadays they don't do animal sacrifices.



Where did Jesus teach that the Gentiles who trusted in him for forgiveness and eternal life should keep all the laws given to Hebrew slaves centuries before?
the commandment doesn’t say “keeping a sabbath day”, it says keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy. What Christ was teaching was from the law - he was taking the law a step further, and teaching us how to properly keep and apply the law, nor do away with it.

in fact, if it wasn’t for the law, Christ wouldn’t have had anything to teach...

I can’t keep all the commands in Leviticus, so no, not every single command is expected to be kept. I keep what is applicable to me as a man, and what is able to be kept.

can I as a man keep the commandment that are specifically for women? No.

we can abstain from homosexuality, inappropriate behavior with animals, incest, witchcraft, having sex during a period, eating unclean animals etc. that can be done by anybody anywhere.

love your neighbor as yourself comes from Leviticus, btw. By quoting and upholding a commandment from Leviticus, you yourself are actually teaching adherence to the book.

The burden on you is to prove that God’s children no longer need to obey the law - not for me to prove we do.

according to Deuteronomy 13, if a prophet teaches us not to obey God, then we should not listen to them, because God is testing us to see if we will obey his commandments. That prophet is worthy of death - so if you accuse Christ, Paul or any apostles or disciple of teaching us to not obey God’s laws and commandments, you are accusing them of being false prophets and sentencing them to death.

Christ taught obedience to the law in Matthew 5 to the general public
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Studyman
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,116
618
65
Michigan
✟318,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Can you show me where Jesus even mentioned Leviticus, and told his disciples to keep all the laws found in it?

According to the Jesus of the Bible, HE is the one who had these Laws written down for us in the first place. "I am HE". The Mainstream preachers of HIS Time also "omitted" parts of God's Law they didn't like or understand.

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus was not Partial in the Law. You can not find a place where HE said we are free to Judge any of God's Word as unworthy of our respect. The mainstream preachers of Jesus time had also judged much of God's Word as unworthy of their honor, and omitted much of God's Law just as the mainstream religions of the land I was born into does. These are simply facts. Do they matter? That is another discussion, first we must accept that according to the Bible, it was being "partial in the Law" and "omitting" much of it, that caused the downfall of the religion Jesus was born into. It seems foolish to allow ourselves to be convinced by "other voices" that we can do the same things and escape their judgment.


If he had expected his Gentile followers to start obeying a law that was not given to them, he would have said so - and you should be able to quote the Scripture which says that.

Absolutely.

Jesus, as the Word of God, before becoming Flesh, had the following written for Jew and Gentile. The mainstream religion of HIS Time rejected these "Sayings" of the Christ. I have chosen not to follow that path.

Is. 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Do you believe that Zacharias understood these sayings? And if so, why. According to the Scriptures, what was the main difference between him, and the Pharisees? Somehow I don't think you will answer that question.

There are a great many laws in Leviticus that Jesus did not comment on at all - rising to greet your elders, Leviticus 19:32, not trimming your beard or the hair at the side of your head, Leviticus 19:27, the kinds of discharges that make people unclean, and what to do about them, Leviticus 15, and so on. In Leviticus 17, the eating of blood is forbidden - yet Jesus told his followers that his blood was of the new covenant and they would not have eternal life unless they drank it, John 6:53. Chapters 1-6 of Leviticus talk about the sacrifices they were to make for sin - yet Jesus gave his life once and for all for sin.
So where does he say, "yes, you and all the Gentiles who come to me, need to keep, or start keeping, all these things?

I'm not sure you have any Biblical support for your implication that when Jesus said "Every Word" HE intended Leviticus to be excluded.

The Cleansing Laws and Sacrifices were part of the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf. Heb. 7 says that Covenant changed, and Jesus is now our New High Priest. Paul knew the importance of Loving God enough to study His Word, even Laws he may not understand at first.

1 Cor. 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Paul was living By Every Word of God here. He knew what the meaning of the Law He referenced was because He understood that God had these Word's written for "OUR" admonition. For "OUR Sake's" HE wrote "Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn" He didn't reject it. He didn't imply it was a stupid Law impossible to follow because he didn't own an Ox. He was teaching this Law and it's meaning to the Gentiles he also told to "Study" to show themselves approved of God. And where would they hear the Word of God at that time? The Disciples directed the gentiles to the same place Jesus sent His Disciples in Matt. 23:1.

Acts. 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of God) and from fornication, (Law of God) and from things strangled, (Law of God) and from blood. (Law of God)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Does God care about beard length? Or is there an important meaning behind these Words? I find it amazing that Jesus can say we must drink His Blood to inherit His Father's Kingdom and religious men are perfectly OK with that symbolism, studying to understand what HE means by "drinking His Blood". But these same religious men seem to have so little respect for His Father that they offer Him a different treatment. Posting some of His Laws that they obviously don't understand, that Paul said were written for "Our Sake's", that is Jew and Gentile, and mocking them as foolish and unnecessary to the point of "omitting" them all together from their religion.

According to the Jesus of the Bible, there is no Jew or Greek. His Instruction is for everyone.

And yet we are, and have to be.

This is what many religions in this world preach, but not the Jesus of the Bible. This is what the serpent convinced Eve of, that God's Laws make her blind, and that to "SEE" she Must break His Commandment. This is a very popular belief and Path to walk. But the Holy Scriptures teach a different path.

The law taught that they should offer animal sacrifices for sin - but we don't do that;

The Jews, who didn't believe in Jesus, still relied on these Priesthood "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins. This is the Law that was "ADDED" to God's Commandments, God's Statutes, and God's Laws that Abraham obeyed. Paul told them that no Flesh is justified by these "works of the Law" God gave to Levi for the atonement of men's sins until the Seed should come.

Jesus died for our sins. Even Jews don't offer animal sacrifices any more.

Yes, these Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" have truly become old and obsolete.

The law taught that they should be circumcised - women have never had to do that.

Again, Circumcision is now and has always been of the heart. As the Christ Himself inspired. It's just that when the mainstream preaches of old time knew God, they didn't Glorify Him AS God. And their foolish heart was darkened.

Duet 10: 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:


The law taught tithing - anyone who teaches tithing today says it is about money. NO ONE takes 10% of the crops that they have grown on their allotments to church so that everyone can eat and praise God for his provision. Giving 10% of your money to God (i.e the church) is a thing in a number of churches; but that's not tithing as laid down in Scripture.

Num. 18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.

24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

You don't understand the Levitical Priesthood or the Laws attributed to it. A Priesthood which has become obsolete.

The law taught that they were to celebrate festivals "in the place where God put his name". Later, this was the temple; later still, after Israel split, the 10 tribes were criticised for making shrines and offering at places where God had not put his name. But today, WE bear the name of Christ, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit - and we are not told to remember festivals which related to the exodus from Egypt but are told to "do this in memory of me".

This is your belief, and popular in the religions of the land. But the Christ inspired Paul to write; "Let us therefore keep the Feast". Passover is only the beginning of Salvation. At least according to the Word of God which became Flesh.

So even if a man wanted to keep all the laws laid down in Leviticus, he could not - and women could only keep some of them anyway.
But Jesus didn't say that this was necessary.

You preach a man is not capable of obeying God, the serpent convinced Eve that God's Laws made her blind, the Pharisees taught for doctrines the Commandments of Men, not God. At what point do we come to terms with the dangers of listening to the "Other religious voices" in the garden and simply have Faith in the Christ of the Bible and His Words?

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So once again, I have you teaching one thing, and the Holy Scriptures teaching the opposite.


To believe popular modern religion I must believe God created Laws impossible to follow, then Commanded men to follow them anyway, as if HE didn't understand how egregious and unjust all His Laws were, according to religious men. And when men couldn't follow these Laws you preach are impossible to follow, God slaughtered them by the thousands.

And yet, Zecharias is said to have done what you preach is impossible.

To believe in modern religions, like the one you are promoting, I would have to believe when God heard Abraham's Children crying out in Egypt, HE remembered His Covenant with Abraham and set forth to save Israel from the slavery of Egypt. So God sent Moses who performed all these miracles to show Israel how Great and powerful the God of their fathers was and convinced them to trust in this God even in the face of great danger. So they did. God provided the Blood of the Lamb for them even while they were still in Egypt. They trusted Him and followed His instruction regarding the Blood of the Lamb. He brought them to the Red Sea and pleaded with Israel to trust Him. And they did and God brought them through on dry land.

And so, according to your religion, how were these people rewarded for trusting the God of Abraham?

He placed on their necks Laws so many in number, so unjust and so unreasonable that it was impossible for them to obey. But when they disobeyed, HE killed them by the thousands anyway. And he led them, kept them in the desert for 40 years torturing them and killing them for not keeping laws you preach are impossible to keep.

How men must hate the God of the Bible to imply such a wickedness. Is this really what the God of the Bible is all about? Of course not. So why do religions imply such a thing about God?

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

It's all right there, all that is needed is "belief".


Can you please show me where Jesus explicitly taught that Gentile believers were, and are, expected to keep all the laws in Leviticus?

It is written that the Jesus of the Bible, was actually the Word of God which Became Flesh.

Lev. 19:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

In your religion, is this the Lord who became Flesh and Blood?
 
Upvote 0

Scott Husted

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2020
860
376
64
Virginia Beach
✟57,000.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
in fact, if it wasn’t for the law, Christ wouldn’t have had anything to teach...

Actually if it wasn't for his father ... even the revelation of who he was came from him, though he was crucified from the foundation of the world, which has everything to do with a law though it be a mystery ...
 
Upvote 0

Dkh587

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 6, 2014
3,049
1,770
Southeast
✟552,407.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Actually if it wasn't for his father ... even the revelation of who he was came from him, though he was crucified from the foundation of the world, which has everything to do with a law though it be a mystery ...
My point was that he wasn’t just pulling teachings out of thin air - his teaching was based on the Law & the Prophets(commonly called the OT).

when he taught the multitudes in Matthew 5, he was teaching the proper understanding and application of the Law & Prophets.

a mark of a true prophet is teaching people to repent and obey God’s law... this is the consistent theme of prophets in the OT... and Christ continued the theme - he didn’t deviate from the prophets before him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Scott Husted

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2020
860
376
64
Virginia Beach
✟57,000.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
My point was that he wasn’t just pulling teachings out of thin air - his teaching was based on the Law & the Prophets(commonly called the OT).

when he taught the multitudes in Matthew 5, he was teaching the proper understanding and application of the Law & Prophets.

a mark of a true prophet is teaching people to repent and obey God’s law... this is the consistent theme of prophets in the OT... and Christ continued the theme - he didn’t deviate from the prophets before him.

Actually he amplified it into sonship ... which none of the prophets starting with Abraham (as being the first named prophet) perceived as well as those he spoke to in relationship to themselves.
 
Upvote 0

Dkh587

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 6, 2014
3,049
1,770
Southeast
✟552,407.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Actually he amplified it into sonship ... which none of the prophets starting with Abraham (as being the first named prophet) perceived as well as those he spoke to in relationship to themselves.
the concept of God’s people being sons/children of God is not new.

Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Deuteronomy 14:21
Ye are the children of YHWH your God

Deuteronomy 32:6
Do ye thus requite YHWH, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Jeremiah 31:9
They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Isaiah 63:16
Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O YHWH art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Isaiah 64:8
But now, O YHWH, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Psalms 89:26
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

Christ brought fuller meaning and revelation(which is what it means to fulfill) to what was already revealed through the prophets before him
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Scott Husted

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2020
860
376
64
Virginia Beach
✟57,000.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Adam was a son of God - the concept of God’s people being sons of God is not new.

Malachi 2:1


Hosea 1:10


Isaiah 64:8

Christ brought fuller meaning and revelation(which is what it means to fulfill) to what was already revealed through the prophets before him.

Yet none does it say (including the prophets) understood ... and went about to kill the first one ever recorded in the Bible to say that he was ... but the law never says Adam was the son of God, though neither does it say God is love, or mount Sinia was Hagar ...

Of course the New Testament explains why based on the accounts of those who received this spirit that was as Peter began to understand not based on the works of the law.
 
Upvote 0

Thistle

Member
Jun 16, 2004
23
1
✟1,643.00
Faith
Christian
Actually he amplified it into sonship ... which none of the prophets starting with Abraham (as being the first named prophet) perceived as well as those he spoke to in relationship to themselves.

I think you are on to something. What God has revealed to man over time is progressive and directional. God when from protecting Cain the first murderer, with a mark to protect him from retribution, to commanding Noah that murderers must be put to death. If we consider the human race became so wicked God had to essentially end it in the flood, ostensibly as a result of protecting the murderer Cain. We subsequently observe the human race is not much better when we execute murderers. It seems to me that this is a divine invitation to conclude that temporal solutions to sin don't work. And God paints the evidence across history for us to draw this conclusion. Whatever "law" Abraham understood the notion of offering sacrifices to God was no news to either him or his son Isaac.

And God seems to lead this family more by providence than law from Abraham to Moses. Then Moses establishing judges which carry through to the time of Samuel, when we move into this kingdom period which is again noticeably different. But whether we are talking about the captivity or from Nehemiah to John the Baptist what God seems to he holding people responsible for, seems to be sharpened and refined across time.

Then Jesus fulfills the ceremonial law of the Jews by becoming high priest, and fulfills the civil law of the Jews by becoming King. The only law that has not been fulfilled is the moral law, because it is grounded in the holiness of God which is immutable, and thus can never be "fulfilled." I don't mean to say Jesus didn't keep it. He certainly did. What I do mean to say is that it's requirements can never be satisfied which is why our salvation, in part, turns on the impeccability of Christ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dkh587

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 6, 2014
3,049
1,770
Southeast
✟552,407.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yet none does it say (including the prophets) understood ... and went about to kill the first one ever recorded in the Bible to say that he was ... but the law never says Adam was the son of God, though neither does it say God is love, or mount Sinia was Hagar ...

Of course the New Testament explains why based on the accounts of those who received this spirit that was as Peter began to understand not based on the works of the law.
You’re implying that they didn’t understand, but it doesn’t say they didn’t understand, yet the overwhelming evidence is that yes, the idea of sonship was taught and understood long ago.

your view that they didn’t understand is based on eisegesis.

exegesis shows that they knew the concept of sonship, and that sonship is not a new teaching that Christ made up that nobody had ever heard of it or understood.
 
Upvote 0