God has to be sovereign or else there is no God.

Sam81

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The sovereignty of God is an absolute fact. But there's a few things that have to be pointed out:

First of all, God is not the author of sin. And God tempts no man. For example, if a genuine Christian is tempted by sin and/or falls back into sin, that is not God's doing. He let the Christian go as a means of discipline. We have no part in our salvation, therefore all God needs to do for someone to fall back into sin is simply let them go. But if a person is really saved, God will eventually restore him/her.

People can't help but to do evil. This has nothing to do with God. Whether a Christian or non-Christian, the natural state of man is to destroy and sow evil in the world. It's the intervention of God that changes this in the lives of His chosen people. Man has free will, however, man is incapable of choosing God.

There are natural consequences of sin, that come as a result of man's wickedness. God is not the author of any of this. However, God in his sovereignty has decreed it as such that all things when brought to their respective end will ultimately be to the glory of Himself.
 
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messianist

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The sovereignty of God is an absolute fact. But there's a few things that have to be pointed out:

First of all, God is not the author of sin. And God tempts no man. For example, if a genuine Christian is tempted by sin and/or falls back into sin, that is not God's doing. He let the Christian go as a means of discipline. We have no part in our salvation, therefore all God needs to do for someone to fall back into sin is simply let them go. But if a person is really saved, God will eventually restore him/her.

People can't help but to do evil. This has nothing to do with God. Whether a Christian or non-Christian, the natural state of man is to destroy and sow evil in the world. It's the intervention of God that changes this in the lives of His chosen people. Man has free will, however, man is incapable of choosing God.

There are natural consequences of sin, that come as a result of man's wickedness. God is not the author of any of this. However, God in his sovereignty has decreed it as such that all things when brought to their respective end will ultimately be to the glory of Himself.
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
 
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Sam81

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As for a person having free will whether or not to resist God when called, I can speak for myself...

If any part of my salvation was dependent upon me, I would not be saved. If there was any condition on my salvation that was reliant upon me to do or choose something, I would never choose God. The natural man hates God and could never choose Him. He can only be chosen of Him. I had no more say or part in my second birth then I did in my first birth. I didn't come to the light choosing to come to the light. I was pulled kicking and screaming.
 
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Oseas

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Freewill in the end means a creature is granted the ability to reject God. If you cannot choose to reject God, you have no freewill. If you can choose to reject God, then you are granted with the freewill. It's almost mathematical (about statistics and probabilities).

Judgment is a process to identify those with God and those not with God. A creature with freewill thus either turns out to be with God (as a result of accepting God and accepted by God, more or less like a marriage between man and woman, both have the will to live with each other in an eternity). or turns out not to be with God (as a result of rejecting God or rejected by God, again more or less resembles a divorce of marriage).

A set of Law which is applicable to both angels and humans is supposed to be used in the Final Judgment to decide who (which creature) can live with God in an eternity (which we call Heaven). The expected outcome is (mathematical probabilities), 2/3 angels will pass the judgment by the degree of freewill given to angels, and with less than 1/3 humans will pass by the degree of freewill given to humans (it is thus a narrow gate).

Satan tried to screw this up by tempting the first lineage of humans, Adam and Eve, to sin such that whoever sinned inside the dwelling place of God will have to be kicked out of the current Kingdom of Heaven. Satan's calculation is, once the first lineage of humans are kicked out of God's realm, Satan is in control of the rest. Not a single human can escape Satan's influence to pass the judgment of Law (which is used on angels) to enter the future and final Heaven to live with God eternally.

On earth (a place outside of God's realm where Satan is called the god of this world in terms of his influence) Satan is trying his best to keep each and every single human under his captivity such that no one (not a single human) can make it to pass the final judgment to be deemed righteous to enter Heaven. He successfully made it so.

So with Satan's effort (by his freewill), God's plan is altered. By the same judgment of Law, it remains the same that 2/3 angels will pass but 0 humans can pass versus the less than 1/3 as planned (a mathematical expected outcome by the degree of freewill granted). In this case, God is defeated as reality doesn't go as God planned (mathematically in logic). Satan expected a win in this case.

Now with Jesus as a justification (God's plan B), lawfully humans don't need to be judged by the same Law as used on the angels. Humans now are judged by covenants instead of Law (the set applicable to both angels and humans). God thus retains the mathematical expected outcome that less than 1/3 humans will be brought to Heaven. In this case, God has the win while Satan is lost due to the miscalculation on the factor that human salvation can go through Jesus by the justification He actively chose to make with His crucifixion on the cross.

So with Jesus' effort (by His freewill), God's plan is not altered. By the judgment of Covenant, less than 1/3 humans will be saved along with the 2/3 angels, as planned (mathematically).

Another misunderstanding is that, as an analogy, earth is a filter securing the cleanness of an aquarium Heaven. Heaven is the aquarium with earth as its filter. However a lot of us have assumed that earth is the aquarium thus question why so much evil exist on earth. The contrary is, earth is a filter thus everything dirty will show up here, such that evil will be exposed and destroyed once and for all through the lawful/legal process of Final Judgment, such that a clean Heaven can be achieved.

It means, in terms of sovereignty, everything is under God's control, in the past, right now and in future.

Free will? Based in what Scriptures did you write your opinions in your long message?
 
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BobRyan

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You hear it all the time. People claim that God didnt ordain or allow this negative relationship or marriage or car accident or insert X problem and "negative" thing here. But the truth of the matter is?

God ordained free will. IT was His sovereign choice to do that -- no one made him do it.
So then...
Lucifer fell and takes 1/3 of the angels
Adam fell and took all mankind
The Jews rejected Christ "who came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
God the Son - incarnate as man - died for the sins of the world.

"The many" of Matthew 7 do not go heaven... the "Few" of Matt 7 do.

A big big price to pay for sovereignly choosing "free will"
 
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messianist

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God ordained free will. IT was His sovereign choice to do that -- no one made him do it.
So then...
Lucifer fell and takes 1/3 of the angels
Adam fell and took all mankind
The Jews rejected Christ "who came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
God the Son - incarnate as man - died for the sins of the world.

"The many" of Matthew 7 do not go heaven... the "Few" of Matt 7 do.

A big big price to pay for sovereignly choosing "free will"
It wasn't Adam who fell.
 
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BobRyan

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It wasn't Adam who fell.
Indeed it was...

Lucifer fell first...
1/3 of the angels fell next.
Eve fell next
Adam fell next.

But if Adam had not fallen - as Romans 5 points out - mankind would not have fallen
 
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messianist

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Indeed it was...

Lucifer fell first...
1/3 of the angels fell next.
Eve fell next
Adam fell next.

But if Adam had not fallen - as Romans 5 points out - mankind would not have fallen
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
 
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1213

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You hear it all the time. People claim that God didnt ordain or allow this negative relationship or marriage or car accident or insert X problem and "negative" thing here. But the truth of the matter is? There are a LOT of "negative" things that God ordained and planned...

I don’t believe God plans “negative” things. I believe he allows “negative” things, because people wanted to know evil. And it doesn’t mean God is not in control. Everything is under God’s control still, and that is why I think there is nothing to worry.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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You hear it all the time. People claim that God didnt ordain or allow this negative relationship or marriage or car accident or insert X problem and "negative" thing here. But the truth of the matter is? There are a LOT of "negative" things that God ordained and planned for in not just your life, but in the lives of EVERYONE who has ever walked this planet or ever will. Whether it's being in an abusive marriage to choosing to give to a charity God planned for and ordained ALL ot it and everything that comes to pass in all of our lives. Like it or not, God is completely in control of not even our lives but everything that happens and everything that is alive. Ever notice the four seasons usually come at just the right time every year? Even the weather obeys Gods perfect will. Or the planets happen to revolve around the sun perfectly? That didnt happen just out of nothing. Or how each and every cell and molecular thing move perfectly according to Gods sovereignty and will? Even Satan who rebelled and turned against God forever needs permission from God before he can do a single action.

If you believe God isn't sovereign or completely in control of all things than you're basically an athiest. Because without his sovereignty and power there can be no God and atheists finally have indisputable proof that God doesnt exist. Why? Well for one the Bible says that God is ALL powerful and his kingdom rules over ALL (Psalm 103:19), the Bible says that God is in control of ALL things (Psalm 135:6) that God controls the steps of man as well and that man does it (Proverbs 16:9), and that each and every day, step, and action of our lives were planned out by God (Psalm 115:3, & Psalm 139:16). If the Bible lies or is contradictory than God ddnt write it and they're just writings of plain old men.


For God to make a mistake or to not have control over the lives of everything that exists would completely remove his power and sovereignty and that would mean that not only does he not exist but that atheism is correct and there is no God. For God to exist he has to rule over ALL because hes the ruler and creator of ALL things. Why else is it mans natural instinct to worship something? Whether Its TV, Justin Beiber or the latest signing craze, Donald Trump, or *insert X Idol here*. ANYTHING can become an idol if you spend more time with it than God or love it more than God.

It is coded into our DNA to serve God. Like it or not, Christian's are given eternal life to serve and have a personal relationship with God. Do you honestly think that we can be given sinless bodies to never worship or serve God? No! Because not serving God is sin! The bible is chuc full of this from prophet to apostle. The reason we exist and the why of why we're here is to worship and serve God! We serve God to earn his praise in the next life and the next life will involve bowing down to to and doing everything that God commands us to do while having a personal relationship with him! But that doesnt excuse the fact that we will serve and worship the almighty and all powerful creator that created us from the beginning for the sole purpose to not only serve him and do his will but to also have an eternal relationship with him. Forever!

Idc what you say, God is control of EVERYTHING and he NEVER makes a mistake. If something "bad" is in your life it's because God put it there for a greater purpose of good. You may not see it now, but you will.

I'm a Calvinist, converted from Arminianism. What you describe as God's sovereignty is really a kind of fatalism. Your view would make God responsible for evil and disasters. He's not.

He only permits evil and disasters to happen for the good of his people. Genesis 50:20-21 presents the God-inspired mystery of God's sovereignty and human responsibility. Joseph's God-given perspective on his life is that his brothers meant their selling of him into slavery for evil, and it certainly was sinful. But God meant it in his good plan for good. Going back to Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit of the tree of good and evil, once they rebelled against God's law, they were controlled by evil. All of us are also controlled by evil when we enter this life, according to Paul (Ephesians 2:1-3). So in reality, there is no real free will. It takes God's free gift of a new birth for us to be guided by God through faith by grace (Ephesians 2:4-9). Then, God guides us as his adopted children into good works that he has planned for us (Ephesians 2:10).

As a result, rather than my logically trying to figure out the relationship between God's sovereignty and human responsibility, God taught me to embrace the mystery and praise his sovereign ways and thoughts, which are far beyond my ways and thoughts (Isaiah 55:6-9).

My advice to you is to immerse yourself in the Scriptures, which you need to interpret based on its own assumptions, which lead to mysteries that can't be plumbed with our minds, and to yield to the God who is infinitely greater than we are.
 
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BobRyan

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Free will? Based on what Scripture are you discussing free will? Where is this written, I wonder? Does anyone have the answer to this question?

"WHOSOEVER WILL" may come.. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22:17)
"How I WANTED..but YOU were not WILLING" Matt 24.

"What MORE could I do than what I have already done? " Isaiah 5.
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
 
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BobRyan

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It wasn't Adam who fell.
Indeed it was...

Lucifer fell first...
1/3 of the angels fell next.
Eve fell next
Adam fell next.

But if Adam had not fallen - as Romans 5 points out - mankind would not have fallen

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

You have switched from "fell" to "deceived" - Adam was not deceived - he knew full well the pit he was stepping in to, he chose to "fall into sin" anyway.
 
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martymonster

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I don’t believe God plans “negative” things. I believe he allows “negative” things, because people wanted to know evil. And it doesn’t mean God is not in control. Everything is under God’s control still, and that is why I think there is nothing to worry.

Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 7:4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
Exo 7:5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
 
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messianist

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Indeed it was...

Lucifer fell first...
1/3 of the angels fell next.
Eve fell next
Adam fell next.

But if Adam had not fallen - as Romans 5 points out - mankind would not have fallen



You have switched from "fell" to "deceived" - Adam was not deceived - he knew full well the pit he was stepping in to.
I haven't changed I used your word in the first message and provided scripture in my second.
 
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