Something doesn't feel right about BLM

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

istodolez said:
And George Floyd wasn't even charged.

Your point?

Yes. Black man with counterfeit $20 bill gets death sentence immediately. White cop gets a couple days to negotiate with the DA before being taken into jail

We asked him to do a job.

When someone dies on the operating table, we don't just throw the surgeon in jail. There's an investigation, a process.

What exactly is the problem? That you had to wait a couple of days to see him charged? That you couldn't do an old fashioned lynching?

And when you wrote to the people doing the analysis of the data (Edwards, F., Hedwig, L. & Esposito, M. Proc. Natl Acad. Sci. USA 116, 16793-16798 (2019), Nix, J., Campbell, B. A., Byers, E. H. & Alpert, G. P. Criminol. Public Policy 16, 309–340 (2017)), what did they say? Did you publish in these journals to point out the errors?

I ask because one of my favorite experiences in my career as a researcher was when I was picked to be peer reviewer for a paper in which the author found an error in one of my earlier papers. I was so happy they found the error that I whole-heartedly recommended the article be published! So did Edwards et al. find your analysis of the data compelling? How did they respond?

I have little respect for modern sociology. It's been shown to be entirely corrupt and the peer review process horribly broken.

That you're involved is no surprise.

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

istodolez said:
"About 1,000 civilians are killed each year by law-enforcement officers in the United States. By one estimate, Black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police during their lifetime. And in another study, Black people who were fatally shot by police seemed to be twice as likely as white people to be unarmed." (What the data say about police brutality and racial bias — and which reforms might work) (Emphasis added)

...and of course be inclusive. But kudos on denigrating even that.

Ahhh, so you are reading minds! Good job! It is best to read minds and find only the most EVIL INTENT in everything...even if no such intent is actually spoken or indicated. But, hey, it's a great way to start.

Since you asked though....from the article you're quoting....

What the data say about police shootings

But the authors did not make any conclusions regarding racial bias of police officers, in part because not everyone has an equal chance of coming into contact with the police

So you were saying something?

Belk · Jul 1, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree. Things may not change overnight....but they do change. 10 years ago...Derek Chauvin may not have been charged. Now, his like are charged relatively quickly.

It's change....just not as fast as some may want.

The only reason he was charged, as far as I can see, was due to the national outrage and attention.

Ana the Ist said:
Let's say it's 1000 deaths or a dozen.

In that case I would agree the dozen is better.

Ana the Ist said:
I don't see it the same way. Being killed by the guy down the street is a tragedy in every way that being killed by a cop is. I don't think you'd have the gall to tell someone who lost a child to gang violence "Hey, look on the upside...at least they weren't killed by the police."

The guy down the street is not subject to oversight, the government should be. One of these things is under our control and we should do all we can to minimize the negative impact.

Ana the Ist said:
That's not an answer. You could be talking about lobotomies for all I know. Give a real practical answer.

I did further down in my response.

Ana the Ist said:
What if he gets out of the cab...and gets in a car and kills himself? What if he kills someone else?

What are you going to tell the aggrieved? That it's a good thing we didn't arrest him?

What if he pulls out a gun and shoots the cop. What was that you said earlier about perfect being the enemy of good?

Ana the Ist said:
Lol no! Good grief...it's not a win for their next victim, or themselves, or the cop who necessarily shows up at the door to arrest them and gets shot.

What next victim? What cop who shows up at their door? So the only possible solution is to have people arrested on the spot and have traffic cops fear for their life every time they pull someone over fora broken tail light? I disagree. We can work out a better system that deescalates situations instead of escalating them.

Radagast · Jul 1, 2020

Belk said:
The only reason he was charged, as far as I can see, was due to the national outrage and attention.

This is what the County Attorney said on May 27.

Rushing to charge Chauvin reduces the chance of a conviction, in my view.

Belk said:
The guy down the street is not subject to oversight

That is in fact exactly what we have a police force for.

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

Belk said:
The only reason he was charged, as far as I can see, was due to the national outrage and attention.

And how do you make that determination? The outrage started before the investigation began.

In that case I would agree the dozen is better.

Well that's the problem as I see it....I can never have a perfect police force nor a crime free community. I have to balance the risk of one against it's benefits.

I don't mind saying though...that if the police ever become as deadly to the populace as the populace is to the police, I'll agree we have a problem that requires radical change.

The guy down the street is not subject to oversight, the government should be. One of these things is under our control and we should do all we can to minimize the negative impact.

Oh it's far worse than that...the guy down the street isn't even subject to outrage.

He's forgotten as soon as he's mentioned, the tragedies he creates ignored.

If a cop even says something wrong on video....he's crucified and excoriated for it. It's as if we expect him to be inhumanly perfect while we make endless excuses for the guy down the street....he's just a product of his environment, a victim of circumstances and history and blah blah blah.

I did further down in my response.

And I explained the problems therein.

What if he pulls out a gun and shoots the cop. What was that you said earlier about perfect being the enemy of good?

That's the risk...that's the job we pay them for. That's why I give them more latitude than the citizen.

What next victim? What cop who shows up at their door? So the only possible solution is to have people arrested on the spot and have traffic cops fear for their life every time they pull someone over fora broken tail light? I disagree. We can work out a better system that deescalates situations instead of escalating them.

You haven't come up with anything so far.

You act like no one driving has ever put their lives or the lives of others at hazard.

istodolez · Jul 1, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
We asked him to do a job.

When someone dies on the operating table, we don't just throw the surgeon in jail. There's an investigation, a process.

I never ONCE suggested we deny due process to the officer. But your example of a surgeon is apropos. If a surgeon came into the operating room and proceeded to do MALPRACTICE willfully he would be punished for his poor performance.

What exactly is the problem? That you had to wait a couple of days to see him charged? That you couldn't do an old fashioned lynching?

No, I'd have been happy if LATER THAT DAY he was put in jail or at least detained.

I have little respect for modern sociology. It's been shown to be entirely corrupt and the peer review process horribly broken.

Ugh, so boring. AT LEAST I've got experience in with peer review. Do you? Do you know what you are talking about?

That you're involved is no surprise.

Radagast · Jul 1, 2020

istodolez said:
I never ONCE suggested we deny due process to the officer. But your example of a surgeon is apropos. If a surgeon came into the operating room and proceeded to do MALPRACTICE willfully he would be punished for his poor performance.

The example of a surgeon is indeed apropos. The surgeon would lose his or her job. As happened to the 4 policemen.

istodolez said:
No, I'd have been happy if LATER THAT DAY he was put in jail or at least detained.

Without an investigation?

istodolez said:
Ugh, so boring. AT LEAST I've got several peer reviewed articles to my name and I have been a peer reviewer. The process is not horribly broken.

The whole discipline of sociology is horribly broken.

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

istodolez said:
I never ONCE suggested we deny due process to the officer. But your example of a surgeon is apropos. If a surgeon came into the operating room and proceeded to do MALPRACTICE willfully he would be punished for his poor performance.

How are you going to know if he did malpractice willfully? Do you think that sort of thing is immediately obvious to even a surgeon? It would require an investigation by experts.

No, I'd have been happy if LATER THAT DAY he was put in jail or at least detained.

Justice isn't about making you happy.

Ugh, so boring. AT LEAST I've got experience in with peer review. Do you? Do you know what you are talking about?

Sure...but more to the point, there's this...

What an Audacious Hoax Reveals About Academia

Sokal Squared doesn’t just expose the low standards of the journals that publish this kind of dreck, though. It also demonstrates the extent to which many of them are willing to license discrimination if it serves ostensibly progressive goals. This tendency becomes most evident in an article that advocates extreme measures to redress the “privilege” of white students. Exhorting college professors to enact forms of “experiential reparations,” the paper suggests telling privileged students to stay silent, or even binding them to the floor in chains.

So when you regurgitate this garbage that carries a particular racial, postmodern, or oppression dynamic narrative...it's immediately suspect.

istodolez · Jul 1, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
How are you going to know if he did malpractice willfully? Do you think that sort of thing is immediately obvious to even a surgeon? It would require an investigation by experts.

Justice isn't about making you happy.

Sure...but more to the point, there's this...

What an Audacious Hoax Reveals About Academia

Sokal Squared doesn’t just expose the low standards of the journals that publish this kind of dreck, though. It also demonstrates the extent to which many of them are willing to license discrimination if it serves ostensibly progressive goals. This tendency becomes most evident in an article that advocates extreme measures to redress the “privilege” of white students. Exhorting college professors to enact forms of “experiential reparations,” the paper suggests telling privileged students to stay silent, or even binding them to the floor in chains.

So when you regurgitate this garbage that carries a particular racial, postmodern, or oppression dynamic narrative...it's immediately suspect.

Well, you didn't make the cut, sorry. You simply don't rise to the level of being worth the time to formulate a response.

If you had some experience in this area I'd be glad to engage with you on this topic, but I don't feel the need to waste a lot of effort to discuss this with you.

Let me know if the situation changes and you actually can get a paper published yourself. (If you think it's easy, just go ahead and do it!)

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

istodolez said:
Well, you didn't make the cut, sorry. You simply don't rise to the level of being worth the time to formulate a response.

You don't have a response.

If you had some experience in this area I'd be glad to engage with you on this topic, but I don't feel the need to waste a lot of effort to discuss this with you.

I do...I've written read and reviewed research papers. On real science, not just postmodern progressive garbage.

Let me know if the situation changes and you actually can get a paper published yourself. (If you think it's easy, just go ahead and do it!)

Here's how I know you don't have any answers....

1. I already posted the quote from your link admitting researchers cannot make conclusions about racial bias .

2. They cannot make conclusions about racial bias because it's literally impossible to control for the possibility of encountering the police.

3. Therefore any research claiming to have evidence of racial bias in police encounters of any kind is fundamentally flawed and should be dismissed.

Is that simple enough for you to follow?

Radagast · Jul 1, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
2. They cannot make conclusions about racial bias because it's literally impossible to control for the possibility of encountering the police.

3. Therefore any research claiming to have evidence of racial bias in police encounters of any kind is fundamentally flawed and should be dismissed.

I don't know about "literally impossible."

It's certainly possible to control for the possibility of encountering the police in realistic simulator scenarios. In those studies, there seems to be a slight bias by white officers against shooting black suspects -- that is, the exact opposite of what those crying "racism" claim.

Belk · Jul 1, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
And how do you make that determination? The outrage started before the investigation began.

Because as you accurately pointed out this is a recent development. In previous cases no one was charged.

Ana the Ist said:
Well that's the problem as I see it....I can never have a perfect police force nor a crime free community. I have to balance the risk of one against it's benefits.

I don't mind saying though...that if the police ever become as deadly to the populace as the populace is to the police, I'll agree we have a problem that requires radical change.

The balance is not as black and white as you have presented. We can limit the number of deaths at the hands of the government will still attempting to police the populace.

Ana the Ist said:
Oh it's far worse than that...the guy down the street isn't even subject to outrage.

He's forgotten as soon as he's mentioned, the tragedies he creates ignored.

No it is not.

Ana the Ist said:
If a cop even says something wrong on video....he's crucified and excoriated for it. It's as if we expect him to be inhumanly perfect while we make endless excuses for the guy down the street....he's just a product of his environment, a victim of circumstances and history and blah blah blah.

Yes. We hold agents of the government to a higher standard then common criminals. That is as it should be.

Ana the Ist said:
And I explained the problems therein.

No, you just made claims and scenarios. I would be happy to hear your explanation.

Ana the Ist said:
That's the risk...that's the job we pay them for. That's why I give them more latitude than the citizen.

That is indeed the job we pay them for. That is why I want them to not be so quick to shoot people.

Ana the Ist said:
You haven't come up with anything so far.

You act like no one driving has ever put their lives or the lives of others at hazard.

I have explicitly came up with a suggestion. Your objection was someone might get out of the cab and (Apparently) magically procure a car to kill people with.

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

Radagast said:
I don't know about "literally impossible."

It's certainly possible to control for the possibility of encountering the police in realistic simulator scenarios.

You talking about the virtual 3d shoot/non-shoot encounter simulators?

Radagast · Jul 1, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
You talking about the virtual 3d shoot/non-shoot encounter simulators?

Yes.

Earlier, I linked to a study on the use of those, which I can't find right now.

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

Belk said:
Because as you accurately pointed out this is a recent development. In previous cases no one was charged.

I'm not sure what you mean by "in previous cases". I can think of multiple cases in very recent years where cops are charged.

The balance is not as black and white as you have presented. We can limit the number of deaths at the hands of the government will still attempting to police the populace.

Again....it's a risk vs reward issue. If I hamper the police x amount...how does that affect their ability to do their job? How does it affect crime? Is it worth the benefits of a few less police killings?

No it is not.

Please. I could pull articles about the exploits of criminals far more horrific than the worst cop you can find just in the last year. You've never heard of them....and no one really cares.

Yes. We hold agents of the government to a higher standard then common criminals. That is as it should be.

It has to be tempered by reality though.

No, you just made claims and scenarios. I would be happy to hear your explanation.

I'll elaborate at the bottom.

That is indeed the job we pay them for. That is why I want them to not be so quick to shoot people.

And yet I can't ask them to die for what we pay them.

I have explicitly came up with a suggestion. Your objection was someone might get out of the cab and (Apparently) magically procure a car to kill people with.

Lol magically...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...-car-led-cops-on-high-speed-chase-police/amp/

Here's a drunk 12yo girl who stole her grandfathers car and took it for a spin...with her little friends.

You're telling me after the drunk man in our scenario gets dropped off at home by a cab....it's literally impossible for him to get into another car and kill himself or someone else?

Who exactly are you kidding at this point Belk?

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

Radagast said:
Yes.

Earlier, I linked to a study on the use of those, which I can't find right now.

Ok....that's not exactly what we're talking about. I can try a more detailed explanation if you're interested.

Radagast · Jul 1, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
Ok....that's not exactly what we're talking about. I can try a more detailed explanation if you're interested.

I'm saying that the question is amenable to analysis, if done the right way.

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

Belk said:
Because as you accurately pointed out this is a recent development. In previous cases no one was charged.

The balance is not as black and white as you have presented. We can limit the number of deaths at the hands of the government will still attempting to police the populace.

No it is not.

Yes. We hold agents of the government to a higher standard then common criminals. That is as it should be.

No, you just made claims and scenarios. I would be happy to hear your explanation.

That is indeed the job we pay them for. That is why I want them to not be so quick to shoot people.

I have explicitly came up with a suggestion. Your objection was someone might get out of the cab and (Apparently) magically procure a car to kill people with.

Here's a speeding example....

The Stolen Car Was Going 154 M.P.H. Five People Ended Up Dead.

Let's see, gang member, long rap sheet, extremely high on drugs, and going 154mph in a 40mph. Killed a bunch of people.

You're saying if cops had a chance to pull this guy over before he killed all those people driving almost 4 times the speed limit....you wouldn't want them to because, golly, things might escalate??

Ana the Ist · Jul 1, 2020

Radagast said:
I'm saying that the question is amenable to analysis, if done the right way.

Well let's say we're trying to analyze bias in one very specific type of police encounter....a traffic stop.

We need a baseline for both our white and black populations....similar everything, not impossible, but difficult in of itself.

Here's the impossible part....how do we possibly account for every reason, legitimate or otherwise, of a traffic stop? Police don't patrol everywhere equally...they don't pull over every speeder, they don't have DUI checks and speed traps equally across populations, we have no way of actually knowing what violations drivers actually presented, and there's very little data for most of these questions. We'd have to solve for all that and more to even begin to determine if one population was experiencing bias in traffic stops and even then....we'd really only be drawing conclusions about the specific population parameters we started with.

It's a difficult task that immediately turns impossible.

Radagast · Jul 1, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
and there's very little data for most of these questions

Data is indeed the problem.

Some of the creative forms of analysis have built on unusual situations where more data than normal was available.

Something doesn't feel right about BLM

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

Senior Member

comes and goes

Aggressively serene!

Well-Known Member

comes and goes

Aggressively serene!

Well-Known Member

Aggressively serene!

comes and goes

Senior Member

Aggressively serene!

comes and goes

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

comes and goes

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

comes and goes

Similar threads