Did You Really Not Know That Christ Must Be Obeyed? --Yes, You!

BNR32FAN · Jun 18, 2020

Blood Bought 1953 said:
Poor God......He never saw this coming, Did He? The whole idea of the Grace that Trumps Sin would be tested or even abused.....You ever hear the word “ Chastisement?”
God knows how to handle Fools.....He need not regret or dismantle His Plan Of Salvation- Grace Plus Nothing-Just because somebody was Stupid enough to think that they could sin and get away with it....
There is not ONE of us here that does not sin, sin willfully, and yes , take advantage of the Grace Of God.....So , get the knot out of your panties and rest assured— these types will “ get their due”.....We need to get on our knees and THANK GOD that His Grace can handle the worst of us.....we are ALL capable of the Best or the Worst and Grace ain’t fair. Deal with it.

Then I guess Paul was wrong in Ephesians 5.

“But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Thos next verse I find extremely used in this discussion.

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Blood Bought 1953 · Jun 19, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Then I guess Paul was wrong in Ephesians 5.

“But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Thos next verse I find extremely used in this discussion.

“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

As with ALL the verses that are quoted to “ prove” that a Believer can be Lost..... these verses are taken out of context and/or not being addressed to “ The Body Of Christ”.....
The “ sons of disobedience” are those that reject the Gospel...the Lost....The Unbelievers....Those That are not “ Walking in the Light” as those of us that have been covered by Grace and whose Sins are under the Blood...
Continuing to read the Chapter, Paul is telling the “ children of Light” NOT to act like those who are still in darkness....Gospel Rejectors!
Jesus has already Promised to Save all of those who Rest in His Gospel Of Grace. Sometimes Saved Gospel Believers need to be reminded to “ ACT” like Saved Believers ......That is what Paul is encouraging Saved Believers to do in these verses......Salvation is not an issue.....That was a GIFT, remember? God bless....

BNR32FAN · Jun 19, 2020

Blood Bought 1953 said:
As with ALL the verses that are quoted to “ prove” that a Believer can be Lost..... these verses are taken out of context and/or not being addressed to “ The Body Of Christ”.....
The “ sons of disobedience” are those that reject the Gospel...the Lost....The Unbelievers....Those That are not “ Walking in the Light” as those of us that have been covered by Grace and whose Sins are under the Blood...
Continuing to read the Chapter, Paul is telling the “ children of Light” NOT to act like those who are still in darkness....Gospel Rejectors!
Jesus has already Promised to Save all of those who Rest in His Gospel Of Grace. Sometimes Saved Gospel Believers need to be reminded to “ ACT” like Saved Believers ......That is what Paul is encouraging Saved Believers to do in these verses......Salvation is not an issue.....That was a GIFT, remember? God bless....

Paul tells the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ not to live ungodly lives WHY? What reason did Paul give?

“But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬

There’s the reason why they must not live a sinful life.

Religiot · Jun 28, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
As an added note to my previous post to you: To learn more why Modalism is unbiblical, check out my posts here, and here in another thread.

Blessings be unto you in the Lord.

I did not know the thread had been reopened: I only found out just now by randomly checking in on it...

Well, I see many of my responses have been deleted, no matter, because I'm not here to talk about God's ontology, and neither are you.

--I don't believe in Modalism, period.

What I am here to talk about is obedience, and from my last interactions with you, I know longer believe that you mean the same thing that I do, by that same term, in-fact, now I know that you don't, for in your signature you admit plainly, that you regard God's laws as segregated between Old Testament and New Testament.

This segregation doesn't exist, but is a promotion by those who would pervert the gospel of God.

God's word is not divided, but must be obeyed completely, and any effort at segregation is oblivious to what the terms Old Testament and New Testament mean.

Lawlessness is condemned, categorically.

Those who work lawlessness in the name of Christ, are the same who twist His words, and the words of His servants, to render false doctrines, and false accusations.

Censorship was the craft of the Pharisees, and other religious leaders, and it is the craft of their descendants today.

Not only does censorship prevent proof, it allows for lies and liars, to remain hidden, and unopposed.

I shall like to test the "obedience" you propound, to see if you will maintain your signature after testing my arguments.

Shall we?

Religiot · Jun 28, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I believe the same thing Iranaeus believed on this subject, that man was created knowing both good and evil and man has always had the capability to repent or reject God.

Brother, remember, that man was not created with this knowledge, but only acquired it.

Men are now born with this knowledge, and it is to us a malady without cure, save in the cross of Christ; for the flesh is weak, and this infusion through disobedience was against the will of God, yet it was done without the knowledge of right or wrong, but only the knowledge of what God wanted and didn't: this is also a lesson for us now, to just obey Him, even if we don't understand. --The irony in this is, that understanding can only come by first obeying.

Religiot · Jun 28, 2020

Phil W said:
No, I don't... though I can't recall having been asked.

Since you last answered that question, have you been able to maintain your sinlessness? and if so, please briefly describe, if you would, your daily communion with God.

Thanks.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 28, 2020

Religiot said:
I did not know the thread had been reopened: I only found out just now by randomly checking in on it...

Well, I see many of my responses have been deleted, no matter, because I'm not here to talk about God's ontology, and neither are you.

--I don't believe in Modalism, period.

Yes, my post was also removed, too. I accepted your statement that you don't believe in Modalism. What I did not find acceptable is your denial of the Trinity; For I believe the Bible teaches the Trinity (See: 1 John 5:7, John 1:1, Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4).

You said:
What I am here to talk about is obedience, and from my last interactions with you, I know longer believe that you mean the same thing that I do, by that same term, in-fact, now I know that you don't, for in your signature you admit plainly, that you regard God's laws as segregated between Old Testament and New Testament. This segregation doesn't exist, but is a promotion by those who would pervert the gospel of God.

I used to believe in the same way you did in regards to obedience. But it is physically impossible to obey both covenants. If you are to obey the Old Law, you have to wait until the temple is rebuilt so you can offer animal sacrifices to a priest, and you have to partake of all the many different types of Sabbath and holy days. Do you partake of all the Sabbaths and holy days?

Paul said if you seek to be justified by the Law (i.e. the Old Law), you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). The Old Law cannot save you. We are under a New Covenant with new commands.

You said:
God's word is not divided, but must be obeyed completely, and any effort at segregation is oblivious to what the terms Old Testament and New Testament mean.

Lawlessness is condemned, categorically.

Look. You cannot render and eye for an eye and also turn the other cheek. That is a contradiction. We noticed that Jesus started to make some big changes at the sermon on the Mount (See: Matthew 5-7). In the Old Covenant you could make oaths. But Jesus said at the Sermon on the mount not to make any oaths at all.

You said:
Those who work lawlessness in the name of Christ, are the same who twist His words, and the words of His servants, to render false doctrines, and false accusations.

So you obey all the applicable laws out of the 613 laws within the Law of Moses AND you obey the 400 appx. direct commands in the New Covenant (or New Testament)? Have you even done a study on cataloguing the commands in the New Testament? I have.

You said:
Censorship was the craft of the Pharisees, and other religious leaders, and it is the craft of their descendants today.
Not only does censorship prevent proof, it allows for lies and liars, to remain hidden, and unopposed.

Well, I did not remove your posts. My posts were removed, too. But you must know that a poster (who denies the Trinity) is free to post on the forums in the non-Christian section of the forums. So their voice can be heard. They are just not allowed to post in the Christian Only section here. It is simply the rules of this site. I did not create the rules of this site. For example: I would not attempt to go to an Anti-Trinitarian forum and post there if they did not allow me to do so (seeing I believe in the Trinity). I would respect the rules of their site, and try to find another way to reach them.

Religiot · Jun 29, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I used to believe in the same way you did in regards to obedience. But it is physically impossible to obey both covenants.

The dichotomy is false: the old is past, and the new is here.

There are no longer two covenants.

Christ is now the new administrator of the only existing covenant.

THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE LAW IS NOW TRANSLATED TO CHRIST

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." --Hebrews 7:11-12

The word change, here, means transfer, not alter.

Strong's:
3331 metathesis met-ath'-es-is from 3346; transposition, i.e. transferral

3346 metatithemi met-at-ith'-ay-mee from 3326 and 5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:--carry over, change, remove, translate, turn. see GREEK for 3326 see GREEK for 5087

To this, the ancient witnesses agree:

"translatio"
-E. Jerome
Heb 7:12
(L. Vulgate)
[c.405]

"translacioun"
-J. Wycliffe
Heb 7:12
(Wycliffe B.)
[c.1395]

"translated"
-W. Tyndale
Heb 7:12
(Tyndale B.)
[1525/1530]

"traspasamiento"
-C. de Reina
Heb 7:12
(B. del Oso)
[1569]

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language [1913]:

Translation /Trans·la´tion/ (?), n. [F. translation, L. translatio a transferring, translation, version. See Translate, and cf. Tralation.] 1. The act of translating, removing, or transferring; removal; also, the state of being translated or removed; as, the translation of Enoch; the translation of a bishop.

If you realize the above, then simply accepting it will cause all of your other misunderstandings to fade away.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 29, 2020

Religiot said:
The dichotomy is false: the old is past, and the new is here.

There are no longer two covenants.

Christ is now the new administrator of the only existing covenant.

THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE LAW IS NOW TRANSLATED TO CHRIST

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." --Hebrews 7:11-12

The word change, here, means transfer, not alter.

Strong's:
3331 metathesis met-ath'-es-is from 3346; transposition, i.e. transferral

3346 metatithemi met-at-ith'-ay-mee from 3326 and 5087; to transfer, i.e. (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:--carry over, change, remove, translate, turn. see GREEK for 3326 see GREEK for 5087

To this, the ancient witnesses agree:

"translatio"
-E. Jerome
Heb 7:12
(L. Vulgate)
[c.405]

"translacioun"
-J. Wycliffe
Heb 7:12
(Wycliffe B.)
[c.1395]

"translated"
-W. Tyndale
Heb 7:12
(Tyndale B.)
[1525/1530]

"traspasamiento"
-C. de Reina
Heb 7:12
(B. del Oso)
[1569]

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language [1913]:

Translation /Trans·la´tion/ (?), n. [F. translation, L. translatio a transferring, translation, version. See Translate, and cf. Tralation.] 1. The act of translating, removing, or transferring; removal; also, the state of being translated or removed; as, the translation of Enoch; the translation of a bishop.

If you realize the above, then simply accepting it will cause all of your other misunderstandings to fade away.

No, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So we do not have to keep the Old Law as a whole or package deal anymore. The Old Law is a part of the Old Covenant. Yes, Christ fulfilled the Old Law, but we are not under the Old Law. The Old Law did not transfer into the New Covenant. It is physically impossible to obey both sets of Laws. You cannot do. They conflict with one another in many places.

Religiot · Jun 30, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
No, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So we do not have to keep the Old Law as a whole or package deal anymore. The Old Law is a part of the Old Covenant. Yes, Christ fulfilled the Old Law, but we are not under the Old Law. The Old Law did not transfer into the New Covenant. It is physically impossible to obey both sets of Laws. You cannot do. They conflict with one another in many places.

You do not make a distinction between the laws that govern the administration of God's law, and God's law itself.

The priesthood changed, wherefore the law is changed...

...Can't you see that the priesthood is not abolished, but that it was transferred to Christ?

...Can't you see that the law is not abolished, but is transferred to Christ?

--Money that changes hands, does not become other money, but is merely transferred from one person to another, the money remaining the same...

Not only have I demonstrated that you don't understand the verse, but have also provided you with ancient witnesses that confirm my observation.

Christ is the new covenant, and the administrator of God's eternal law.

Why not just simply obey Christ, and follow His example?

Bible Highlighter · Jun 30, 2020

Religiot said:
You do not make a distinction between the laws that govern the administration of God's law, and God's law itself.

The priesthood changed, wherefore the law is changed...

...Can't you see that the priesthood is not abolished, but that it was transferred to Christ?

...Can't you see that the law is not abolished, but is transferred to Christ?

--Money that changes hands, does not become other money, but is merely transferred from one person to another, the money remaining the same...

Not only have I demonstrated that you don't understand the verse, but have also provided you with ancient witnesses that confirm my observation.

Christ is the new covenant, and the administrator of God's eternal law.

Christ did not come to destroy all forms of Law in general but He came to fulfill the Old Law (Matthew 5:17). To fulfill vs. destroy is kind of like an apple seed and a tree. If I wanted to destroy all forms of Law, I would take the appleseed and hit it with a hammer. But if I wanted to fulfill the Law, I would plant the seed properly in good soil, and water it, etc. and then it would grow into being an apple tree (Thus fulfilling the appleseed's intended purpose).

When the Word (Who is God and was with God) was made flesh: The Old Law was initially transferred to Him, but but He blotted out those ordinances that were against us, and He nailed them to the cross.

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:14).

This does not mean we are lawless individuals now or there are no laws in the New Covenant we must obey. In this instance: Paul is referring to the ceremonial laws in the Old Covenant. Things like the Saturday Sabbath, holy days, circumcision, and dietary laws have been nailed to the cross and blotted out. But the whole of the Law is not destroyed. Christ fulfilled the Old Law into its ultimate intended purpose with the commands in the New Testament. We must obey the Laws in the New Testament as a part of salvation. But this can only take place for a person if they are first saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus & believing the gospel.

Hebrews 7:12 says that if the priesthood be changed, there is a necessity of a change of the Law also. Christ did this by fulfilling the Old Law at the cross and with His giving of His New Covenant commands.

You said:
Why not just simply obey Christ, and follow His example?

Why do you keep wrongfully accusing me that I am not for obedience to the Laws of Christ as a part of salvation when I already said otherwise? I have already made this point clear to you before. We must obey His commands to be saved. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Granted, I believe we must first be saved by God's grace and believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Which is something that your tract does not promote). A person cannot save themselves by works alone without God's grace & the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 first. The problem in not accepting God's grace is that it promotes Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace. Yes, we need works as a part of salvation (God directed works done through us), but this is only done AFTER we are saved by God's grace. The tract that you promoted does not mention being saved by God's grace and the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. All your tract promoted was obedience (without God's grace) to be saved. This is another gospel. You cannot put the cart before the horse.

Yes, we need to obey God's commands to be saved. No doubt about it. We do not disagree on that. Where we disagree is on God's grace because you did not recognize the inherent problem of the tract you promoted. It was a tract that did not promote God's grace and the gospel. We also may possibly disagree on what Covenant and its respective laws to follow, as well. For you keep saying the Old Law was transferred but you leave it a mystery at that point. You don't say how that works in the real world for believers today. Do we obey the Saturday Sabbath still? Do we still stone others if they disobey the Law of Moses?

Bible Highlighter · Jun 30, 2020

Religiot said:
You do not make a distinction between the laws that govern the administration of God's law, and God's law itself.

The priesthood changed, wherefore the law is changed...

...Can't you see that the priesthood is not abolished, but that it was transferred to Christ?

...Can't you see that the law is not abolished, but is transferred to Christ?

--Money that changes hands, does not become other money, but is merely transferred from one person to another, the money remaining the same...

Not only have I demonstrated that you don't understand the verse, but have also provided you with ancient witnesses that confirm my observation.

Christ is the new covenant, and the administrator of God's eternal law.

Why not just simply obey Christ, and follow His example?

If the ordinances that were against us were not blotted out as Colossians 2:14 says, then do you believe we must obey the Saturday Sabbath, the other Sabbaths, holy days, circumcision, and dietary laws as a part of salvation?

Note: See Colossians 2:16-17.

Do you believe we must wait for a temple to be built to sacrifice animals? If you obey the Old Law, you must obey all of it and not just those parts you want to pick and choose to obey. But if you obey Christ and His followers under the New Covenant or New Testament, you are following Jesus and not Moses.

For the Law came by Moses and grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17).

Religiot · Jun 30, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Where we disagree is on God's grace because you did not recognize the inherent problem of the tract you promoted. It was a tract that did not promote God's grace and the gospel.

The following is page 30 from the tract:

Not only do you contradict the obvious, but you imagine that we, somehow, can agree on your version of the gospel.

Not only does this very simple tract illustrate the only gospel, it does so with a concision that is careful not to leave a required element out.

But just like we read the same bible and arrive at different conclusions, so too did we read the same exact tract and saw two totally different comic books.

You and I do not see the same.

Why not discard your preconceptions, and re-read the tract, carefully?

Bible Highlighter · Jun 30, 2020

Religiot said:
The following is page 30 from the tract:

View attachment 279970

Not only do you contradict the obvious, but you imagine that we, somehow, can agree on your version of the gospel.

Not only does this very simple tract illustrate the only gospel, it does so with a concision that is careful not to leave a required element out.

But just like we read the same bible and arrive at different conclusions, so too did we read the same exact tract and saw two totally different comic books.

You and I do not see the same.

Why not discard your preconceptions, and re-read the tract, carefully?

Introduction:

Sure, the tract mentions a belief or faith, but it does not mention what to believe in to be saved, and neither does it promote a belief on God's grace for salvation. It downplays this.

Does the tract promote Ephesians 2:8-9, or Titus 3:5, or Romans 4:3-5? No. It does not say that we are saved by God's grace through faith and it is a gift of God and not of works (Which is the 1st stage of salvation). This is the aspect of salvation that the tract ignores.

In other words, the tract does not promote God's grace as a way of salvation (Which is where salvation starts and it is the foundation of our faith). By reading the tract, I get no understanding on what God's grace is.

Side Note:

Yes, we are ALSO saved by Sanctification (i.e. Living holy, not justifying sin, and obeying God's commands), but this is AFTER being saved by God's grace through faith in the 1st aspect of salvation (Which is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law).

Problem #1 in the Tract:

The tract falsely promotes the idea that you cannot be saved by the Sinner's Prayer or by calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation:

This is false. Special prayers to the Lord can save. The very passage the tract quotes says so. Romans 8:13 says whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Bible teaches that the Sinner’s Prayer is just another way of saying to “Repent” (Which is how a person generally gets initially saved).

A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that "Repentance" means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

"Asking God for forgiveness of sin" can either refer to: The "Sinner's Prayer" (Initial Salvation) (Romans 10:13), and or the seasoned believer "Confessing one's sin" (Continued Salvation) (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin.”

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Rheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.

Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

Anyways, this is God's grace! It is seeking forgiveness over one's sins with the Lord Jesus! David met God's grace in Psalms 51 when he sought forgiveness with the Lord. The tax collector met God's grace in Luke 18. This is usually a part of our initial salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (Note: For if a believer happens to stumble on rare occasion, they cannot be forgiven by doing a good work, but they can be forgiven by confessing their sin - See 1 John 1:9).

Problem #2 in the Tract:

The tract preaches a false gospel.

The tract states...

So the tract falsely defines the gospel as a call to obedience of the faith. Then the tract also falsely implies water baptism is the gospel call of obedience in order to first be saved.

This is not the gospel that Paul preached.

Paul said,

“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”
(1 Corinthians 1:17).

So if Paul came not to baptize but to preach the gospel, how can the gospel be baptism? What the tract proposes makes no sense.

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18).

What is the gospel according to Scripture?

1 “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
(1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

That's the gospel!
The gospel is believing that Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on your behalf for salvation.

So the tract preaches another gospel.

Yes, we need to obey as a part of salvation, but this is AFTER we are saved by God's grace (Romans 10:13, 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9), and in believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Side Note:

Now, I believe the gospel can be obeyed (As it states in Scripture). We have to obey the gospel by believing the gospel of salvation as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is believing Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf). There is also an aspect of the gospel that can later be obeyed, as well (Which is in the Sanctification Process). They that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). We are to walk in newness of life (Which is a type of the resurrection) (Romans 6:4).

BUT.... one needs to first be saved by God's grace through trust in Christ in that He is our Savior (This can sometimes include seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus by way of prayer).

Religiot · Jun 30, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Introduction:

Sure, the tract mentions a belief or faith, but it does not mention what to believe in to be saved, and neither does it promote a belief on God's grace for salvation. It downplays this.

Does the tract promote Ephesians 2:8-9, or Titus 3:5, or Romans 4:3-5? No. It does not say that we are saved by God's grace through faith and it is a gift of God and not of works (Which is the 1st stage of salvation). This is the aspect of salvation that the tract ignores.

In other words, the tract does not promote God's grace as a way of salvation (Which is where salvation starts and it is the foundation of our faith). By reading the tract, I get no understanding on what God's grace is.

Side Note:

Yes, we are ALSO saved by Sanctification (i.e. Living holy, not justifying sin, and obeying God's commands), but this is AFTER being saved by God's grace through faith in the 1st aspect of salvation (Which is a process of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law).

Problem #1 in the Tract:

The tract falsely promotes the idea that you cannot be saved by the Sinner's Prayer or by calling upon the name of the Lord for salvation:

This is false. Special prayers to the Lord can save. The very passage the tract quotes says so. Romans 8:13 says whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Bible teaches that the Sinner’s Prayer is just another way of saying to “Repent” (Which is how a person generally gets initially saved).

A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that "Repentance" means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

"Asking God for forgiveness of sin" can either refer to: The "Sinner's Prayer" (Initial Salvation) (Romans 10:13), and or the seasoned believer "Confessing one's sin" (Continued Salvation) (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin.”

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Rheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.
Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

Anyways, this is God's grace! It is seeking forgiveness over one's sins with the Lord Jesus! David met God's grace in Psalms 51 when he sought forgiveness with the Lord. The tax collector met God's grace in Luke 18. This is usually a part of our initial salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (Note: For if a believer happens to stumble on rare occasion, they cannot be forgiven by doing a good work, but they can be forgiven by confessing their sin - See 1 John 1:9).

Problem #2 in the Tract:

The tract preaches a false gospel.

The tract states...

So the tract falsely defines the gospel as a call to obedience of the faith. Then the tract also falsely implies water baptism is the gospel call of obedience in order to first be saved.

This is not the gospel that Paul preached.

Paul said,

“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”
(1 Corinthians 1:17).

So if Paul came not to baptize but to preach the gospel, how can the gospel be baptism? What the tract proposes makes no sense.

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18).

What is the gospel according to Scripture?

1 “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
(1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

That's the gospel!
The gospel is believing that Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on your behalf for salvation.

So the tract preaches another gospel.

Yes, we need to obey as a part of salvation, but this is AFTER we are saved by God's grace (Romans 10:13, 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9), and in believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

Side Note:

Now, I believe the gospel can be obeyed (As it states in Scripture). We have to obey the gospel by believing the gospel of salvation as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is believing Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf). There is also an aspect of the gospel that can later be obeyed, as well (Which is in the Sanctification Process). They that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). We are to walk in newness of life (Which is a type of the resurrection) (Romans 6:4).

BUT.... one needs to first be saved by God's grace through trust in Christ in that He is our Savior (This can sometimes include seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus by way of prayer).

Indeed, your response proves that we do see differently.

Though I actually posted the image of the actual page of the tract, your response is as if you did not bother to read the tract, nor the image of page 30 that I just provided...

Your twisting of what Paul writes cannot alter the commands of Christ.

--Moreover, it is also obvious that you cannot see that the tract is specifically intended for professing Christians...

...This is now my second admonition to you.

I have told you the truth, yet you do not recognize it as such.

I am convinced that there is nothing more that I can say to you, save to tell you to turn from your worldview to a simple obedience to Christ.

Please remember the very first page of this thread, and the reason behind these posts--most of those who call him Lord, He will reject.

PS: If you want to continue the conversation in the form of a study, I will gladly proceed; but as far as continuing as a debate, I cannot proceed, for I've already admonished you twice.

I sincerely hope you reconsider to obey the Lord in all that He said, especially when it comes to salvation, Mark 16:16.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 1, 2020

Religiot said:
Indeed, your response proves that we do see differently.

Though I actually posted the image of the actual page of the tract, your response is as if you did not bother to read the tract, nor the image of page 30 that I just provided...

Religiot said:
--Moreover, it is also obvious that you cannot see that the tract is specifically intended for professing Christians...

Religiot said:
I sincerely hope you reconsider to obey the Lord in all that He said, especially when it comes to salvation, Mark 16:16.

Again: Yes, it is true that the tract says to “believe”;
But believe in what?
The tract does not say.
There are many false Christian cults out there, telling you to believe in all kinds of false things to be saved. So you falsely assume all professing Christians believe the same thing in regards to the basics.

The problem is that if you are correcting Christians with this tract, they need to start from ground zero and or still need understand what is true or not true (even in regards to the basics).

Your ground zero (the basics) in the tract falsely states that the gospel is being water baptized and, or the gospel is obedience to the faith (When in reality the gospel is described for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, i.e. It is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later on our behalf for salvation). In the tract: We also have no clue of the importance of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Luke 15:17-21) (Luke 18:9-14) (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Proverbs 28:19) (Psalms 51). For without God's grace, we cannot labor (See: 1 Corinthians 15:10). For by grace are we saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). God's grace is a gift from God (John 3:16).

In fact, you still imply that the believers are initially saved by being water baptized by your quote of Mark 16:16. But you are unaware that water baptism saves us not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (sin), but it saves us so as to answer the call in having an already good (or clean) conscience before God (See: 1 Peter 3:21). Meaning, water baptism does not save you in regards to salvation (Even though it is something every believer will desire to do when they believe they have found those right believers).

You are unaware that the receiving of the Spirit (Spirit baptism) is what saves (See: Acts of the Apostles 19:1-7) (Note: Today, most generally receive the Holy Spirit when they first accept the Lord and the gospel of their salvation; This happened with Cornelius (See: Acts of the Apostles 10:38-44). Paul says he came not to baptize but to preach the gospel. If water baptism was the gospel (Which the tract falsely claims), then the tract is preaching another gospel.

Yet, this tract falsely claims that if one is not preaching the gospel via by water baptism, then we (believers) are preaching another gospel. This is heresy. Any Christian who reads their Bible knows the gospel is defined clearly for us 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The gospel is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later. That's it. That's the gospel! This is the gospel of the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

The tract also denies the truth of the Sinner's Prayer and how that can save a person, as well (Psalms 51, 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Romans 10:13). The tract specifically says special prayers cannot save you. This goes against the Bible! Just read Luke 18:9-14.

You said:
Your twisting of what Paul writes cannot alter the commands of Christ.

Where did I twist what Paul writes?
Care to explain? Or are you just making baseless accusations?
What do you believe are the commands of Christ that cannot be altered? Are you suggesting water baptism?
Yes, I believe we are commanded by Jesus to be water baptized, but it is not how we are initially saved. For Cornelius received the Spirit (He was Spirit baptized) before he was water baptized.

You said:
...This is now my second admonition to you.

You cannot give any admonition to any Bible following believer if you deny the Trinity. Believers are to worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).

You cannot give any admonition to any Bible following believer if you preach another gospel (via by your tract) saying that water baptism is the gospel (When in reality the gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 instead).

You cannot give any admonition to any Bible following believer if you promote a tract that denies God's grace or the Sinner's Prayer (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Luke 15:17-21) (Luke 18:9-14).

You said:
I am convinced that there is nothing more that I can say to you, save to tell you to turn from your worldview to a simple obedience to Christ.

Again, you falsely claim that I do not believe in obedience to Christ as a part of salvation. I am not your average Christian who holds to Belief Alone-ism or that I can abide in unconfessed grievous sin (i.e. mortal sin) and still be saved. I have already stated to you many times that I believe we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace (and believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and we are saved by then entering into the Sanctification Process (Which is living holy, and putting away the lusts of the flesh, and in loving God and loving others, i.e. good works). Believers cannot justify sin or live in grievous sin and still be saved. They can confess of their sins to be forgiven of their sins if they stumble into sin on rare occasion, though (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). But believers should eventually have the victory over their sin; For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

Please remember the very first page of this thread, and the reason behind these posts--most of those who call him Lord, He will reject.

I am not denying the truth that believers will be rejected by Christ because they worked iniquity or lawlessness (Matthew 7:23).

You said:
PS: If you want to continue the conversation in the form of a study, I will gladly proceed; but as far as continuing as a debate, I cannot proceed, for I've already admonished you twice.

Again, you cannot admonish a Bible following believer if you reject things like the Trinity, and if you promote a tract that preaches water baptism as the gospel (When the tract should have preached the gospel as defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). If you cannot get the basics right, you cannot help or correct any Bible following believer.

Side Note:

Another problem with the tract is that it plagiarizes another person's artwork and certain words (at times) as if it is their own. The tract is originally from Chick Publications called “This Was Your Life.” I highly doubt you got permission from them to print such a tract (Which means you are in violation of copyright law). Romans 13 says that we are to obey the higher authorities (obviously if the laws of the land do not conflict with God's laws). Obeying the higher authorities means we are obeying God. To not obey the law of the land (if it does not conflict with God's laws), means, we are disobeying God.

Religiot · Jul 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Side Note:

Another problem with the tract is that it plagiarizes another person's artwork and certain words (at times) as if it is their own. The tract is originally from Chick Publications called “This Was Your Life.” I highly doubt you got permission from them to print such a tract (Which means you are in violation of copyright law). Romans 13 says that we are to obey the higher authorities (obviously if the laws of the land do not conflict with God's laws). Obeying the higher authorities means we are obeying God. To not obey the law of the land (if it does not conflict with God's laws), means, we are disobeying God.

Your final note is not really a side note, but just another attempt at censorship.

Another proof that your examination of the tract was indeed limited, is the fact that you overlooked what is clearly posted on the left side of page 5 (pictured above), which is the same exact place where Chick Publications places it's copyright in the original.

The infringement of copyright that this tract makes, is protected under the laws of Fair Use, specifically, Title 17 of U.S.C. Sections 107 and 512(f).

The tract is an obvious criticism of the original, and it is an obvious tool for teaching a contrary doctrine to the original.

This work, and the many others like it, continue to be protected under the laws of Fair Use; so your allegation against me of violating the law is also false.

Moreover, and of greater importance than your constant effort at censorship, is the fact that you do not even know what the gospel is. The following is the actual gospel, according to the un-parsed scriptures:

THE GOSPEL

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified." --Isaiah 61:1-3

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." --Luke 4:16-21

THE BEGINNING OF THE GOSPEL

"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; and preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." --Mark 1:1-8

"Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: the grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." Isaiah 40:1-8

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: but the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." --1 Peter 1-25

You don't know what you're talking about.

PS: I agree with the Nicene Creed (325), which predates the word trinity, and it's modern conceptualization.

Just because I don't agree with your misunderstandings doesn't mean I should be silenced.

You've not understood much of what I've said, on most of what we've talked about.

We see differently, period.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 2, 2020

Religiot said:
Your final note is not really a side note, but just another attempt at censorship.

View attachment 280066
Another proof that your examination of the tract was indeed limited, is the fact that you overlooked what is clearly posted on the left side of page 5 (pictured above), which is the same exact place where Chick Publications places it's copyright in the original.

The infringement of copyright that this tract makes, is protected under the laws of Fair Use, specifically, Title 17 of U.S.C. Sections 107 and 512(f).

The tract is an obvious criticism of the original, and it is an obvious tool for teaching a contrary doctrine to the original.

This work, and the many others like it, continue to be protected under the laws of Fair Use; so your allegation against me of violating the law is also false.

As a general matter, copyright infringement occurs when a copyrighted work is reproduced, distributed, performed, publicly displayed, or made into a derivative work without the permission of the copyright owner.

Source:
BASICS: Copyright infringement and fair use

Fair Use:

Nonprofit educational uses: When teachers photocopy limited portions of written works for classroom use, this is normally acceptable. An English teacher would be permitted to copy a few pages of a book to show to the class as part of a lesson plan. (Note that she would not be permitted to photocopy the entire book).

Source:
The 'Fair Use' Rule: When Use of Copyrighted Material Is Acceptable

If you are the creator of the tract: It appears that you copied more than a few pages but you copied either the entire book or almost the whole thing. If you are only a promoter of the tract and not the creator, it is still wrong to publicly make available a work that is in violation of copyright law. For you would have to be okay with the existence or the creation of this illegal work in order to promote it.

You said:
Moreover, and of greater importance than your constant effort at censorship, is the fact that you do not even know what the gospel is. The following is the actual gospel, according to the un-parsed scriptures:

THE GOSPEL
"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified." --Isaiah 61:1-3

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." --Luke 4:16-21

Nothing within these two passages mentions any content of the gospel being preached. It merely says that the gospel is preached to the poor and it says that the broken hearted are healed, and it says that the preaching of deliverance went out to the captives, etc.

It does not say: And the “gospel to the poor (that is preached)” is this.... healing the broken hearted, preaching deliverance to the captives, etc.

THE BEGINNING OF THE GOSPEL

"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judæa, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; and preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." --Mark 1:1-8

"Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: the grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." Isaiah 40:1-8

I will admit when I am wrong.

So thank you.
In this instance, I am partially wrong but not entirely.

As for these two passages:

Well, I believe that this is the beginning of the gospel message. It was John the Baptist preparing of the way of the Lord and telling people to make their paths straight. John the Baptist preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. But notice in the passage that John the Baptist mentions how there is One who is mightier than him who will baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire. This means that the One who is mightier than him will baptize differently. We see this in Acts 19. The disciples of John who were water baptized by John's repentance were unaware of the Holy Ghost, and so Paul baptized them into the Holy Ghost (in the name of the Lord Jesus) by laying hands on them. So it seems water baptism was not the full or final revelation of the gospel message. Paul was giving them the evolution of the final gospel message by baptizing them into the Spirit.

Okay. Now, I will admit I was wrong about repentance not being included in the gospel. My apologies. Repentance has obviously remained the same and has not changed or evolved because Jesus and His followers continued to preach repentance, and the nature of that has not changed. So thank you for helping me to see what the Scriptures say on this point (even if we may disagree on what the words “repent” or “repentance” might mean).

But as a whole: The beginning of the gospel is still not happening today. John the Baptist is still not forerunning the coming of Jesus. We are not told to continue in John's baptism of water repentance alone. We see that baptism has evolved in Acts 19:1-7 (Which was a prediction by John himself). So water baptism is not the exclusive baptism anymore. So while one can water baptize (and it should be encouraged), it is not the sole way of coming to the Lord. For we see that the Spirit fell upon Cornelius when he heard the gospel message from Peter in Acts 10. Cornelius was then later water baptized. Cornelius was saved the instant the Spirit came upon him. He did not need to be water baptized in order to be initially saved. Cornelius did not need to first be water baptized and confess of his sins (by John's baptism) in order to receive the Spirit.

In any event, I am still concerned that you do not grasp the heart of the gospel message as put forth to us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. What do you see 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 as saying? Is this not the heart or most important part of the gospel? What was the whole reason John the Baptist preached the coming of the Lord? Why did John baptize and tell others to repent? For what purpose or reason would these things serve if Jesus never went to the cross to die for our sins, and be buried, and then be risen from the grave three days later?

You said:
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: that the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: but the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." --1 Peter 1-25

This is the WORD which the gospel is preached unto you. It does not say this is the GOSPEL that is preached unto you. There is a difference between the WORD and the GOSPEL. The word is God's communicated message via by the mouths and writings of the Lord's apostles.

You said:
You don't know what you're talking about.

The heart of the gospel is declared to us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
Granted, I dropped the ball on the repentance part being included in the gospel message, but 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 has not changed in what it says. Paul says he declares the gospel and that he states that this is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later. Read the passage for yourself and you will see that this is the heart of full fruition of the gospel. This gospel was not preached by Christ's disciples before the cross.

Before the cross:

God's people were preaching the “beginning of the gospel.” This would have been preaching the coming of the Lord Jesus. He came already. So this part of the gospel evolved. Unless of course you think we should still preach the 1st coming of Jesus like John the Baptist did. The beginning of the gospel also included preaching repentance. I believe this would be a call for men to seek forgiveness with the Lord. This part of the gospel has not changed even after the cross because repentance is still preached and commanded after the cross. The beginning part of the gospel included John water baptizing and men “CONFESSING their sins (obviously to the Lord)” (i.e. repentance). This was the baptism of repentance. This beginning part of the gospel (water baptism & confessing sins to the Lord) has changed or evolved into adding the element of Spirit baptism in Acts 19:1-7. Sometimes a believer can receive the baptism of the Spirit automatically (like with Cornelius).

People today water baptize, but they rarely if ever have them confess their sins to the Lord as they do so (i.e. They pray to the Lord for forgiveness while doing so). Man's traditions have colored original baptism as set forth by John the baptist.

You said:
PS: I agree with the Nicene Creed (325), which predates the word trinity, and it's modern conceptualization.

Just because I don't agree with your misunderstandings doesn't mean I should be silenced.

Wikipedia states:

The Nicene Creed of 325 explicitly affirms the co-essential divinity of the Son, applying to him the term "consubstantial". The 381 version speaks of the Holy Spirit as worshipped and glorified with the Father and the Son.

Source:
Nicene Creed - Wikipedia.

The Nicene Creed:

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Matthew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)

So you believe that the Son of God (Jesus) was the true God of true God, and He was begotten, and not made?

The Nicene Creed:
(Continued):

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)

So you believe that the Holy Spirit can be called Lord, and is the giver of life, and proceeds FROM the Father?
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is to be worshiped and glorified along with the Father, and the Son?

In other words, this means that all three persons of the Godhead (i.e. the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) are distinct persons, and yet they are all one God. If you do not agree with this truth, you are going against the creed. The creators of this forum agree that denying the Trinity as it is commonly understood in Christianity (i.e. God exists as one God and yet He also exists as three distinct persons) would be going against the creed.

Religiot · Jul 2, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
So you believe that the Son of God (Jesus) was the true God of true God, and He was begotten, and not made?

Yes, I do.

Religiot · Jul 2, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
So you believe that the Holy Spirit can be called Lord, and is the giver of life, and proceeds FROM the Father?

Yes, I do.

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