Chistians, how do you conclude Jesus is god?

Pazuzil · Jul 1, 2020

Even if I concede that Jesus said that he was god and that he performed all the prophesies and miracles described in the bible... that would make him pretty special, but how does that prove that he was the human incarnation of the creator of the universe? Isn't this a god-of-the-gaps argument... you can't explain something so you conclude that he must be god because you can't think of a better explanation? And according to the bible, Pharohs magicians were able to turn their staves to snakes, which is just as remarkable as any of the miracles that Jesus performed. This means there are humans with supernatural powers out there who obviously aren't divine. So why believe Jesus was divine?

thecolorsblend · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
Even if I concede that Jesus said that he was god and that he performed all the prophesies and miracles described in the bible... that would make him pretty special, but how does that prove that he was the human incarnation of the creator of the universe? Isn't this a god-of-the-gaps argument... you can't explain something so you conclude that he must be god because you can't think of a better explanation? And according to the bible, Pharohs magicians were able to turn their staves to snakes, which is just as remarkable as any of the miracles that Jesus performed. This means there are humans with supernatural powers out there who obviously aren't divine. So why believe Jesus was divine?

Are you familiar with the Lord, Liar Or Lunatic trliemma by CS Lewis?

HTacianas · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
Even if I concede that Jesus said that he was god and that he performed all the prophesies and miracles described in the bible... that would make him pretty special, but how does that prove that he was the human incarnation of the creator of the universe? Isn't this a god-of-the-gaps argument... you can't explain something so you conclude that he must be god because you can't think of a better explanation? And according to the bible, Pharohs magicians were able to turn their staves to snakes, which is just as remarkable as any of the miracles that Jesus performed. This means there are humans with supernatural powers out there who obviously aren't divine. So why believe Jesus was divine?

It was resolved by the Church long ago.

But if you read Philo of Alexandria's commentaries on the Word of God you will understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

tbstor · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
...which is just as remarkable as any of the miracles that Jesus performed.

Jesus' miracles are much greater than that of the magicians. Did the magicians have the authority to forgive sins? Did the magicians have the authority to command the dead to "come forth"? Did the magicians have authority over demons? All of these things indicate the true nature of Christ.

Pazuzil · Jul 1, 2020

thecolorsblend said:
Are you familiar with the Lord, Liar Or Lunatic trliemma by CS Lewis?

Yes I am but if the there are really humans with supernatural powers like pharaohs magicians, would you also believe them if they made the same claims as Jesus did? If they are under the power of Satan, don't you think they could be quite convincing?

thecolorsblend · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
Even if I concede that Jesus said that he was god and that he performed all the prophesies and miracles described in the bible... that would make him pretty special, but how does that prove that he was the human incarnation of the creator of the universe? Isn't this a god-of-the-gaps argument... you can't explain something so you conclude that he must be god because you can't think of a better explanation? And according to the bible, Pharohs magicians were able to turn their staves to snakes, which is just as remarkable as any of the miracles that Jesus performed. This means there are humans with supernatural powers out there who obviously aren't divine. So why believe Jesus was divine?

To answer your question more directly, truth is I obviously wasn't alive in 1st century Palestine to see these things for myself. So, I don't believe the gospel accounts based on what I personally witnessed.

However, other people were alive to see those things. They watched Him get crucified. Then they watched Him die. Then they watched Him rise from the dead. Then they watched Him to ascend to Heaven.

So what? Lots of people say lots of things. I can understand being skeptical about that. But that's what the eyewitnesses claimed to have seen.

The Roman authorities eventually ordered the eyewitnesses to change their story. Then the authorities flogged them. Then the authorities boiled them in oil. Then the authorities fed them to lions. Then the authorities beheaded them. Then the authorities crucified them too.

At each step of the way, the people who claimed to have witnessed Our Lord do all these miraculous things, including come back from the dead, preferred to die rather than change their story or recant or anything else.

That testimony has to mean something. It's one thing to believe in crazy nonsense you claim to have witnessed when believing in that crazy nonsense costs you nothing. But when believing in crazy nonsense that you claim to have witnessed comes at the expense of your life, your story has more credibility.

The miracles described in Sacred Scripture are pretty unbelievable for a lot of people. And yet, I find it easier to believe that those miracles happened than to believe that these eyewitnesses were hoaxsters, all of whom went to their death claiming to have witnessed crazy nonsense when all they had to do to save their lives was recant their crazy nonsense stories.

dzheremi · Jul 1, 2020

We didn't conclude it. It is quite simply the way that He has revealed Himself to us, and what we have been taught since the descent of the Holy Spirit upon those who had gathered in the upper room at Pentecost in 33 AD.

From the Egyptian Orthodox tradition (a book called the Agpeya, which is the daily prayer book of the Coptic Orthodox Church), we pray the following prayer every morning under the heading "The Faith of the Church":

One is God the Father of everyone.

One is His Son, Jesus Christ the Word, Who took flesh and died; and rose from the dead on the third day, and raised us with Him.

One is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, one in His Hypostasis, proceeding from the Father, purifying the whole creation, and teaching us to worship the Holy Trinity, one in divinity and one in essence. We praise Him and bless Him forever. Amen.

+++

This is what we are taught by God. We did not arrive at the belief in Christ's divinity by rational proof or any kind of 'God in the gaps' argument, but by revelation from Him.

Pazuzil · Jul 1, 2020

tbstor said:
Jesus' miracles are much greater than that of the magicians. Did the magicians have the authority to forgive sins? Did the magicians have the authority to command the dead to "come forth"? Did the magicians have authority over demons? All of these things indicate the true nature of Christ.

You don't think turning a piece of wood into a living snake is as impressive as raising the dead? I think its even more impressive than breathing life back into a pre-existing dead body. And claiming you have the authority to forgive sins or raise the dead, doesn't mean you have it unless you can somehow demonstrate that this is the case.

Pazuzil · Jul 1, 2020

thecolorsblend said:
To answer your question more directly, truth is I obviously wasn't alive in 1st century Palestine to see these things for myself. So, I don't believe the gospel accounts based on what I personally witnessed.

However, other people were alive to see those things. They watched Him get crucified. Then they watched Him die. Then they watched Him rise from the dead. Then they watched Him to ascend to Heaven.

So what? Lots of people say lots of things. I can understand being skeptical about that. But that's what the eyewitnesses claimed to have seen.

The Roman authorities eventually ordered the eyewitnesses to change their story. Then the authorities flogged them. Then the authorities boiled them in oil. Then the authorities fed them to lions. Then the authorities beheaded them. Then the authorities crucified them too.

At each step of the way, the people who claimed to have witnessed Our Lord do all these miraculous things, including come back from the dead, preferred to die rather than change their story or recant or anything else.

That testimony has to mean something. It's one thing to believe in crazy nonsense you claim to have witnessed when believing in that crazy nonsense costs you nothing. But when believing in crazy nonsense that you claim to have witnessed comes at the expense of your life, your story has more credibility.

The miracles described in Sacred Scripture are pretty unbelievable for a lot of people. And yet, I find it easier to believe that those miracles happened than to believe that these eyewitnesses were hoaxsters, all of whom went to their death claiming to have witnessed crazy nonsense when all they had to do to save their lives was recant their crazy nonsense stories.

Even if he was raised from the dead, how doesn't that prove he is the creator of the universe?

Pazuzil · Jul 1, 2020

dzheremi said:
We didn't conclude it. It is quite simply the way that He has revealed Himself to us, and what we have been taught since the descent of the Holy Spirit upon those who had gathered in the upper room at Pentecost in 33 AD.

From the Egyptian Orthodox tradition (a book called the Agpeya, which is the daily prayer book of the Coptic Orthodox Church), we pray the following prayer every morning under the heading "The Faith of the Church":

One is God the Father of everyone.

One is His Son, Jesus Christ the Word, Who took flesh and died; and rose from the dead on the third day, and raised us with Him.

One is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, one in His Hypostasis, proceeding from the Father, purifying the whole creation, and teaching us to worship the Holy Trinity, one in divinity and one in essence. We praise Him and bless Him forever. Amen.

+++

This is what we are taught by God. We did not arrive at the belief in Christ's divinity by rational proof or any kind of 'God in the gaps' argument, but by revelation from Him.

So when believers of other religions claim they arrived at their beliefs through revelation from their gods, do you think they're lying, delusional or deceived? Do you think their conviction is shallower than yours?

tbstor · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
You don't think turning a piece of wood into a living snake is as impressive as raising the dead? I think its even more impressive than breathing life back into a pre-existing dead body. And claiming you have the authority to forgive sins or raise the dead, doesn't mean you have it unless you can somehow demonstrate that this is the case.

No, I don't think it is as impressive. Raising the dead is something that can only be done by God's authority. We do not have any control over death outside of God.

I am going off of your concession: "Even if I concede that Jesus said that he was god and that he performed all the prophesies and miracles described in the bible..."

Pazuzil · Jul 1, 2020

tbstor said:
No, I don't think it is as impressive. Raising the dead is something that can only be done by God's authority. We do not have any control over death outside of God.

I am going off of your concession: "Even if I concede that Jesus said that he was god and that he performed all the prophesies and miracles described in the bible..."

That makes no sense. Turning a stave to a snake means you turn a piece of wood into living cells, organs, bone, nerves and then you add life force. When you raise the dead, you only need to add the life force because the other things already exist.

thecolorsblend · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
Even if he was raised from the dead, how doesn't that prove he is the creator of the universe?

If someone claims to be God in the flesh, predicts His death, predicts His resurrection, dies, stays dead for three days and then comes back to life in perfect health, I personally would be willing to accept anything that person says. Including His claim that He really is God.

That sounds kind of sarcastic when I read it to myself but it's not meant to be sarcastic. I just have a sarcastic way of expressing myself. But no sarcasm is intended.

dzheremi · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
So when believers of other religions claim they arrived at their beliefs through revelation from their gods, do you think they're lying, delusional or deceived? Do you think their conviction is shallower than yours?

I can't speak as to the convictions of others, or their sincerity or anything like that. That's not my place. We have been given our faith by God, and that is what we are to follow, not anything else. For the sake of caring about everyone, I should hope that God will accept the sincere worshiper whose theology is erroneous, but that is His determination to make, not mine.

If you don't know them, the writings of the 2nd century saint Justin Martyr concerning other religions, and in particular the concept of "seeds of the Word" which appear in them, might be helpful to you. St. Justin argues that Christ is prefigured in the pagan religions of his time, and by this we can say that no other religion is ever 100% false. This is a good approach to take towards people of other religions, so long as the Christian understands that the boundaries between his religion and any others are to be strictly maintained (this is generally not an issue in my own Church, but seems to be one in some others', so it might not be a good approach for everyone).

tbstor · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
That makes no sense. Turning a stave to a snake means you turn a piece of wood into living cells, organs, bone, nerves and then you add life force. When you raise the dead, you only need to add the life force because the other things already exist.

A life force isn't a physical thing. We are speaking about a metaphysical action taken on the part of Jesus.

DebbieJ · Jul 1, 2020

Pharaoh's magicians are just illusionist like David Blaine. There's nothing supernatural about that and I really hate card tricks, lol. They can't even bring Pharaoh's dead son back or defend the whole of Egypt from the angel of death.

Carl Emerson · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
And according to the bible, Pharohs magicians were able to turn their staves to snakes, which is just as remarkable as any of the miracles that Jesus performed.

They are all dead - Jesus is alive !!!

StephenDiscipleofYHWH · Jul 1, 2020

Pazuzil said:
You don't think turning a piece of wood into a living snake is as impressive as raising the dead? I think its even more impressive than breathing life back into a pre-existing dead body. And claiming you have the authority to forgive sins or raise the dead, doesn't mean you have it unless you can somehow demonstrate that this is the case.

The power of these magicians came from demons and the limitation of the Demons power compared to God is evident in the fact they could not perform the greater works that the Lord's people could through the power given them by God. They were not able to turn dust into lice like the Lord could, nor any of the other plagues that came after this.
Exodus 9:
16And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
17And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
18And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.

The same greater power of God was in Christ because he could perform miracles far greater than any man who consorted with Devils, and he had this power because he was God. Through the same spirit of Christ God's Apostles performed greater miracles than what any devil could perform.

DebbieJ · Jul 1, 2020

Daniel9v9 · Jul 1, 2020

It's not just one or two things Jesus said or did that testify to His divinity, it's everything about Him and the whole historical context! It all points to Jesus as fully man and fully God; He is God in flesh. We don't conclude this from a single source or testimony, but a great number spreading over thousands of years.

Chistians, how do you conclude Jesus is god?

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