If Peter wasn't the first pope, who was?

Root of Jesse

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Sure, but competing theories keep being posted too. ;)


Well, it was included as part of a reply to me.
If I said it in a private message, then you can assume I'm only talking to you.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Your popes regularly refer to Constantinople as the See of St Andrew. Do you reject what your popes teach?
Not Catholic Popes, as far as I know. There is no historical evidence of such, that I know of. Do you have specific attributions?
 
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Root of Jesse

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No, that is only part of why the Churches there were important, the other reason is because they became major Christian centres because of the large populations there.
That's what I meant by major cities.
And because it was the present capital of the Roman empire, a point made clear in one of the Ecumenical Councils.
Agreed. IF I didn't make it clear, major city, plus apostolic founding of church, major center of the Church. I cited the example of small city plus apostolic founding in Compostela, which is still a sleepy little town in Northwestern Spain.
The Church had already been established in Byzantium before Constantine chose the small city as the site of the new capital of the empire.
The Catholic Church, right.
None of the guys posting in this thread believe this. What a stupid, stupid comment.
A general 'you guys'. Not you posting here.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Sure, but competing theories keep being posted too. ;)


Well, it was included as part of a reply to me.
Protestants have competing theories, you're right. There is one Catholic answer to it, and I've seen how Scripture has been interpreted, and that was one reason I came into the Church.
 
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Albion

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Protestants have competing theories, you're right. There is one Catholic answer to it...

Well, no.

In order to make that kind of comparison, it would be necessary to compare all the Protestant denominations to all the Catholic ones...or any one Protestant denomination to any one of the Catholic ones (such as the Roman Catholic Church).
 
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Root of Jesse

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Well, no.

In order to make that kind of comparison, it would be necessary to compare all the Protestant denominations to all the Catholic ones...or any one Protestant denomination to any one of the Catholic ones (such as the Roman Catholic Church).
There is only one Catholic Church. There are several who call themselves apostolic, but only one Catholic Church. No Catholic denominations. So...well, yes.
 
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Philip_B

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There is only one Catholic Church. There are several who call themselves apostolic, but only one Catholic Church. No Catholic denominations. So...well, yes.
Out of interest @Root of Jesse what do you imagine that many of us who are not in communion with the See of Rome might mean when we profess the Nicene Creed and say 'We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church'?
 
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prodromos

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There is only one Catholic Church. There are several who call themselves apostolic, but only one Catholic Church. No Catholic denominations. So...well, yes.
And one that calls itself the Catholic Church, but in reality left that communion centuries ago.
 
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Albion

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There is only one Catholic Church. There are several who call themselves apostolic, but only one Catholic Church. No Catholic denominations. So...well, yes.
That's what members of most of the Catholic churches say about whichever communion they happen to belong to, that's right.

However, here where many people of different denominations and communions come together, what would be gained if members of each of them were in the habit of posting that theirs was the only Catholic--or Apostolic--or genuine--church, so that all the others could then respond, "No, MINE is!" ;)
 
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Root of Jesse

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Out of interest @Root of Jesse what do you imagine that many of us who are not in communion with the See of Rome might mean when we profess the Nicene Creed and say 'We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church'?
Hard to speak for everyone. But I was an Evangelical and we professed the Nicene Creed. What we mean by that statement is the Universal Church, which is all Christians baptized in the Trinitarian formula.
 
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Root of Jesse

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That's what members of most of the Catholic churches say about whichever communion they happen to belong to, that's right.

However, here where many people of different denominations and communions come together, what would be gained if members of each of them were in the habit of posting that theirs was the only Catholic--or Apostolic--or genuine--church, so that all the others could then respond, "No, MINE is!" ;)
I have never stated that "Roman Catholic" was the only apostolic or genuine church. But Jesus created one Church and prayed that His Church would be one. I grant, and my Church grants, that all Trinitarian baptized Christians are part of that Church. The question would be how much you line up and agree with what Jesus actually taught.
FWIW, I was pondering this just last night. What I came up with is that there's a lot of difference between being Catholic, and being 'a' Catholic. Being 'a' Catholic implies a denomination. Being a 'Roman Catholic' implies also a denomination.
 
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Philip_B

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Hard to speak for everyone. But I was an Evangelical and we professed the Nicene Creed. What we mean by that statement is the Universal Church, which is all Christians baptized in the Trinitarian formula.

The notes to the CF Statement of Faith say "The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine."​

Of course it is interesting that the Latin Church uses a Greek composite as it's primary descriptor.

There are of course four notes of the Church.
  1. One
  2. Holy
  3. Catholic
  4. Apostolic
One is something that the Church is, which I think is where we struggle a little, because evidently that Church seems fractious and divided. I think we must work with the notion that the Church is both visible and invisible, and that despite our visible disunity, there is ultimately a spiritual unity, that embraces the universal nature of the Gospel and the people of God - the baptised.

Holy for most us us refers not to the presently attained perfection of the Church which as yet is indiscernible to most of us, but rather to the truth that we have been set apart for the purposes of God. The notion of the Church as Holy is not a question of who we are some much as whose we are. It is not the Pope's Church, it is not Billy Graham's Church, it is Christ's Church.

Catholic
based on the contraction of two Greek words kata and 'olos (holos) which means according to the whole. The universality of the Church, which is not in dispute, is in reality already picked up in the first note of the Church. The idea of the Catholicity of the Church is a term born in the times of the post apostolic and pre conciliar times of the Church. It was the period during which the Church, despite much opposition and persecution, grew to the point where those who belonged represented perhap 8% of the Empire. It was a time when Christians focused on the things that bound them together, rather than the tings that tore them apart. Christians found their connections through the body of believers and their oversight by various sees, including Ephesus, Antioch, Jerusalem, Rome, and Alexandria, but who found their unity in Christ. However this sense of Catholicity referred not simply to geography, but also to time and traversed the dividing line of death to this world and holding us in one body stretching back to the Apostles, to station of life, to language/s spoken, and embraced a wealth of inherited traditions and cultures.

Apostolic from the Greek apostolos meaning sent refers the nature of the Church as the mission of the people of God sent into the world to proclaim the hope of the Gospel. As such Mission is not something that the Church does, but rather in ingrained into the nature of the Church and is something that the Church is. Sometimes we miss this point and I wonder sometimes when we are enthroning and installing people into various positions that Jesus seemed more interested in sending out laborers into the harvest.

Of course I speak not for everyone, however this is home I have come to understand these things.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The notes to the CF Statement of Faith say "The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine."​

Of course it is interesting that the Latin Church uses a Greek composite as it's primary descriptor.
Yes, that's exactly how I use the term. I don't know why it's 'interesting', Greek was the primary language of the empire for a long time. The term catholic was first mentioned in Ignatius' letter in 150 or thereabouts. And with no definition, they already knew what it meant.
There are of course four notes of the Church.
  1. One
  2. Holy
  3. Catholic
  4. Apostolic
One is something that the Church is, which I think is where we struggle a little, because evidently that Church seems fractious and divided. I think we must work with the notion that the Church is both visible and invisible, and that despite our visible disunity, there is ultimately a spiritual unity, that embraces the universal nature of the Gospel and the people of God - the baptised.
The call to be one is the desire of Jesus. We never can live up to His standard, for sure. And as I stated the above, we consider all baptized Christians part of the One.
Holy for most us us refers not to the presently attained perfection of the Church which as yet is indiscernible to most of us, but rather to the truth that we have been set apart for the purposes of God. The notion of the Church as Holy is not a question of who we are some much as whose we are. It is not the Pope's Church, it is not Billy Graham's Church, it is Christ's Church.
The Church is holy because Jesus is holy, no other reason. No man is holy of himself, though we believe the Pope is holy because the Holy Spirit, which Jesus promised to Peter, guides him. In matters of faith and morals.
Catholic based on the contraction of two Greek words kata and 'olos (holos) which means according to the whole. The universality of the Church, which is not in dispute, is in reality already picked up in the first note of the Church. The idea of the Catholicity of the Church is a term born in the times of the post apostolic and pre conciliar times of the Church. It was the period during which the Church, despite much opposition and persecution, grew to the point where those who belonged represented perhap 8% of the Empire. It was a time when Christians focused on the things that bound them together, rather than the tings that tore them apart. Christians found their connections through the body of believers and their oversight by various sees, including Ephesus, Antioch, Jerusalem, Rome, and Alexandria, but who found their unity in Christ. However this sense of Catholicity referred not simply to geography, but also to time and traversed the dividing line of death to this world and holding us in one body stretching back to the Apostles, to station of life, to language/s spoken, and embraced a wealth of inherited traditions and cultures.
The ideo of Catholicity is from Jesus Himself. If the Church is one, it is universal.
Apostolic from the Greek apostolos meaning sent refers the nature of the Church as the mission of the people of God sent into the world to proclaim the hope of the Gospel. As such Mission is not something that the Church does, but rather in ingrained into the nature of the Church and is something that the Church is. Sometimes we miss this point and I wonder sometimes when we are enthroning and installing people into various positions that Jesus seemed more interested in sending out laborers into the harvest.

Of course I speak not for everyone, however this is home I have come to understand these things.
Our bishops are the successors of the apostles, and are there to fulfill the mission to go out into the world proclaiming the Gospel. They all do it differently, just as Popes have different strengths and weaknesses. I believe all the popes of the 20th and 21st centuries have fulfilled this mission to the max.
 
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prodromos

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So you believe...
Based on the evidence. It isn't something that just popped into my head one day, rather it is the outcome of many years of reading history and reading the Church Fathers.
 
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Philip_B

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Yes, that's exactly how I use the term. I don't know why it's 'interesting', Greek was the primary language of the empire for a long time. The term catholic was first mentioned in Ignatius' letter in 150 or thereabouts. And with no definition, they already knew what it meant.
And Constantinople was the Capital of the Roman Empire for longer than Rome was!

Of course it is interesting in that despite a name formed from Greek it forced a liturgy in Latin on people who did not speak it.
 
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