Figurative Devil/Satan

tbstor

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I was initially made aware of the belief that the Devil/Satan is a myth or figurative through contact with Christadelphians. Ever since I heard it, I have always had some sympathy for the view. However, it has been shockingly difficult to find resources on the matter which aren't explicitly from Christadelphian websites. Does anyone know of any good books on the subject? My understanding is that the Jewish faith doesn't really teach a literal Devil/Satan, so I'd also be willing to accept some Jewish sources.

I appreciate any help!
 

Brian Mcnamee

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I was initially made aware of the belief that the Devil/Satan is a myth or figurative through contact with Christadelphians. Ever since I heard it, I have always had some sympathy for the view. However, it has been shockingly difficult to find resources on the matter which aren't explicitly from Christadelphian websites. Does anyone know of any good books on the subject? My understanding is that the Jewish faith doesn't really teach a literal Devil/Satan, so I'd also be willing to accept some Jewish sources.

I appreciate any help!
Think about what you are entertaining? If Satan is not literal The fall is bogus, Job is Bogus the gospels are bogus, Rev is bogus, when you consider that Masonic teachings when you get to the highest level teach that Lucifer is the light bearer and that there is a duality where God and Satan are equal and God tried to keep man from knowledge and Satan brought it. They believe in a literal fall of man and teach that Lucifer is going to sit on the capstone of the pyramid with the all seeing eye. They believe he Satan aka Lucifer is real and they seek his power and are carrying out his agenda. This is a foolish path and the scriptures warn not to be led into every wind of doctrine. You are seeking this out which clearly contradicts the Bibles teaching on it.
 
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tbstor

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Think about what you are entertaining? If Satan is not literal The fall is bogus, Job is Bogus the gospels are bogus, Rev is bogus, when you consider that Masonic teachings when you get to the highest level teach that Lucifer is the light bearer and that there is a duality where God and Satan are equal and God tried to keep man from knowledge and Satan brought it. They believe in a literal fall of man and teach that Lucifer is going to sit on the capstone of the pyramid with the all seeing eye. They believe he Satan aka Lucifer is real and they seek his power and are carrying out his agenda. This is a foolish path and the scriptures warn not to be led into every wind of doctrine. You are seeking this out which clearly contradicts the Bibles teaching on it.
I haven't fully formulated my views on the fall, but a figurative Devil/Satan doesn't necessitate that the fall is "bogus." The teaching of the Christadelphians is as follows:

The words 'satan' and 'devil' are used figuratively to describe the natural sinful tendencies within us which we spoke of in Study 6.1. These are our main 'satan' or adversary. They are also personified, and as such they can be spoken of as 'the devil'- our enemy, a slanderer of the truth. This is what our natural 'man' is like - the very devil.​

I have no immediate objections to this understanding. I don't see why the serpent in the Garden, which the Jews have never taught to be the Devil/Satan, has to be a literal archetypically evil entity. Likewise, the story of Job is also not necessarily "bogus." The Jews have no issue interpreting the Book of Job. As well, Revelation is also not "bogus." The imagery doesn't have to be taken literally at all.

I can't say I know anything about Masonic stuff.
 
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childeye 2

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I haven't fully formulated my views on the fall, but a figurative Devil/Satan doesn't necessitate that the fall is "bogus." The teaching of the Christadelphians is as follows:

The words 'satan' and 'devil' are used figuratively to describe the natural sinful tendencies within us which we spoke of in Study 6.1. These are our main 'satan' or adversary. They are also personified, and as such they can be spoken of as 'the devil'- our enemy, a slanderer of the truth. This is what our natural 'man' is like - the very devil.​

I have no immediate objections to this understanding. I don't see why the serpent in the Garden, which the Jews have never taught to be the Devil/Satan, has to be a literal archetypically evil entity. Likewise, the story of Job is also not necessarily "bogus." The Jews have no issue interpreting the Book of Job. As well, Revelation is also not "bogus." The imagery doesn't have to be taken literally at all.

I can't say I know anything about Masonic stuff.
If, figuratively speaking, God is talking to Satan in the story of Job, is God wrestling against his own nature?
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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I haven't fully formulated my views on the fall, but a figurative Devil/Satan doesn't necessitate that the fall is "bogus." The teaching of the Christadelphians is as follows:

The words 'satan' and 'devil' are used figuratively to describe the natural sinful tendencies within us which we spoke of in Study 6.1. These are our main 'satan' or adversary. They are also personified, and as such they can be spoken of as 'the devil'- our enemy, a slanderer of the truth. This is what our natural 'man' is like - the very devil.​

I have no immediate objections to this understanding. I don't see why the serpent in the Garden, which the Jews have never taught to be the Devil/Satan, has to be a literal archetypically evil entity. Likewise, the story of Job is also not necessarily "bogus." The Jews have no issue interpreting the Book of Job. As well, Revelation is also not "bogus." The imagery doesn't have to be taken literally at all.

I can't say I know anything about Masonic stuff.
Eze the word of the LORD
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

You have a genealogy from Adam and Eve who were verified as being literal by Jesus. Who was taken and tempted by Satan after fasting for 40 days. A metaphor is not even in the question Satan possessed Judas and Jesus noted that the ruler of this world was coming and had no part of Him in John 14 or 15. Jesus told Satan what you do do quickly. The man of sin in 2 Thes is the same as the beast in Rev 13 who is given power and authority by the dragon who is identified for us as Satan and as Satan tempted Jesus with the kingdoms of this world if Jesus would worship him; the beast does indeed receive all the kingdoms of the world in a time just as Jesus was offered and Satan noted that they were his and he could give them to whomever he wished. The 1st prophecy is the seed of the woman crushing the head of the serpent. And indeed we see Jesus coming and taking over all authority and dominion and the angels will cry out the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ and He will rule forever. Now Satan who deceived the whole world during the tribulation is bound for 1000 years while the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. After the 1000 years he is released and tempt the world one last time and gathers an army which surrounds Jerusalem and then that is it. The end of the age the great white throne judgement. The literal sense makes sense so why seek another sense?
 
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Der Alte

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I was initially made aware of the belief that the Devil/Satan is a myth or figurative through contact with Christadelphians. Ever since I heard it, I have always had some sympathy for the view. However, it has been shockingly difficult to find resources on the matter which aren't explicitly from Christadelphian websites. Does anyone know of any good books on the subject? My understanding is that the Jewish faith doesn't really teach a literal Devil/Satan, so I'd also be willing to accept some Jewish sources.
I appreciate any help!
SATAN: By: Joseph Jacobs, Ludwig Blau
In the Bible.
Term used in the Bible with the general connotation of "adversary," being applied (1) to an enemy in war (I Kings v. 18 [A. V. 4]; xi. 14, 23, 25), from which use is developed the concept of a traitor in battle (I Sam. xxix. 4); (2) to an accuser before the judgment-seat (Ps. cix. 6); and (3) to any opponent (II Sam. xix. 23 [A. V. 22]). The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).
SATAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Satan-Encyclopedia Judaica
“The Satan” as the standing appellation of a particular angel first appears around 520 B.C.E. in Zechariah 3 and then in *Job 1–2. In I Chronicles 21:1, which has already been referred to, the article is disposed with, and “Satan” seems to be a real proper name. In Zechariah 3, the Satan acts as prosecutor in the celestial court; in Job 1–2, he questions Job’s integrity in the latter’s absence and suggests to the Lord that it be tested. He is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. bene ha-eʾlohim), who is unable to act without His permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God. In I Chronicles 21:1, in which Satan is said to have incited David to take a census of Israel which resulted in the death of 70,000 Israelites (21:14), he has obviously been secondarily substituted because of doctrinal consideration for “the Lord,” who plays this part.
https://ketab3.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/encyclopaedia-judaica-v-18-san-sol.pdf
 
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tbstor

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If, figuratively speaking, God is talking to Satan in the story of Job, is God wrestling against his own nature?
It could just be a narrative provided for the sake of telling a story. It doesn't have to be God literally speaking with a figure named Satan.
 
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childeye 2

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It could just be a narrative provided for the sake of telling a story. It doesn't have to be God literally speaking with a figure named Satan.
But the narrative would nonetheless imply God is wrestling with Himself if Satan is taken to be figurative.
 
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tbstor

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But the narrative would nonetheless imply God is wrestling with Himself if Satan is taken to be figurative.
Perhaps. Though Der Alte provided a good Jewish source which gives a more literal interpretation:

The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).​

I am not willing to make a commitment as to how I view Satan/Devil, but I do find these alternate perspectives to be interesting.
 
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childeye 2

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Perhaps. Though Der Alte provided a good Jewish source which gives a more literal interpretation:

The word is likewise used to denote an antagonist who puts obstacles in the way, as in Num. xxii. 32, where the angel of God is described as opposing Balaam in the guise of a satan or adversary; so that the concept of Satan as a distinct being was not then known. Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" (Job i. 7). Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).​

I am not willing to make a commitment as to how I view Satan/Devil, but I do find these alternate perspectives to be interesting.
Der Alte provided an informative post which is logical in it's surmising that Satan must be real.

I too have considered the idea of Satan being an invented character to represent a creature's subconscious desire to supplant God. It's akin to vanity in that sense. It's even logical that vanity would first manifest in the highest creature such as an an angel that was the most gifted. But nonetheless vanity is not an Angel. I feel I can safely commit to that.
 
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