A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Der Alte said:

Your list omits 8 of Paul's quotes.

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You acted before like I did not know about Paul quoting others. That was the point of why I quoted the list that I did. I did not set out to omit anything from your list after the fact. My list existed before I was aware of your list. Omitting something suggests that I intentionally removed something. I didn't.

You said:

And nothing I quoted did I state or imply that it was anything other than credible, verifiable, historical evidence. I certainly did not suggest that it was equal to scripture. But that is a good automatonic dismissal of anything you can't refute.
Try actually reading my post. I clearly explained my view on what I quoted from the JE, Talmud and EJ. The sources I quoted are infinitely more credible than the opinions of any anonymous poster on this forum.

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YOU BELIEVE that these sources are credible and verifiable. It is not an undisputed fact. You are also an anonymous poster on the forum.

You said:

Your opinion of the EOB means diddly squat! Unless you have several semesters of koine Greek and a few years of post grad study. Otherwise you are just another voice shouting in the darkness. "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"
Perhaps you need to learn that the original Greek is the standard NOT the KJV.

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James says God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. That does not sound like the fat cat scholar to me but it sounds like any poor guy on the street who can just read and believe the Bible plainly in the English. But you can believe as you wish.

I don't think you are addressing the real point I am making (i.e. Isaiah 34:10).

In any event, may God bless you (even if we disagree).

zoidar said:

A time ago I read about this word "eternal" not meaning eternal in time but in consequence. IOW the unsaved will be burnt up. I agree we are not to take something to be true because most churches teaches it. What I believe is we can make a case for both teachings. I see nothing wrong holding to one or the other.

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At one point in time, I was on the fence for a long time. I held to both Eternal Torment and Conditional Immortality as both being possibilities, as well. It was not until I read an excellent article on Isaiah 34:10 from Conditionalists that changed my mind.

In fact, this took place one early morning a few years back. I was drinking coffee at an airport, and searching for more answers on Conditional Immortality online, and boom. The article gave me insight that I did not see before. It it was like I had walked through a door, and it was shut behind me. I then knew the truth and it was unmistakable.

I will have to try and find the article.

You said:

I don't think the image Jesus uses of hell in the story of the rich man and lazarus is true in a literal sense, but the severity of hell is true.

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There is no indication in the text that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a metaphor. It reads like a real and literal narrative. There are no words saying, “the Kingdom of heaven is like...” and neither is there only generic references of men or women alone as we see in the parables of Jesus (like: Matthew 22:1-14, Matthew 25:1-13, etc.); This story has real names of people (like Abraham, and Lazarus). The story also does not sound outside of the realm of possibility like with the strange imagery we see in Revelation, either.

So I believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a real and literal story. I just don't believe the rich man was tortured in flames and screaming in pain like popular Hollywood movies or hell houses in churches.

I believe there are two possibilities:

You said:

Hell is also called outer darkness.

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I believe those who reject Jesus in this life, atheists, agnostics, or unbelievers will go to the place of torments (i.e. the same place the rich man went to, i.e. traditional hell, or hades).

I believe Christians who fall into serious doctrinal error like denying the Trinity, or denying the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and or those Christians who justify sin in this life are going to a place called “outer darkness” before the Judgment (Which is then followed by the Lake of Fire).

I think Isaiah and Hesekiel you use to support annihilation are good, nothing to say about that. But I kind of have let the question go to just know that God will do what is right and best. It gives me peace with the question.

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Thank you. Isaiah and Ezekiel are good points in support of Conditional Immortality.

You said:

God bless you!
/Peter

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May God bless you, as well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ J.

Der Alte said:

That is correct. That is why I do not give my unsupported opinion but quote credible, verifiable, historical etc. sources.

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You missed my point. Anyone can say their belief is in support of sources which are credible, verifiable, historical, etc.; A person can say that a belief is biblical based on what some guy said in the past. The problem is that false beliefs existed even in history. Not all professing Christians believed the same thing even throughout history. Truth is not determined by looking in history books, or looking to the Jew's writings, etc. So just because you say that your belief is verifiable and historical does not mean anything. I can verify in history a false belief. It does not make such a false belief as true. As for credible sources statement: Who gets to decide what is credible or not credible sources? You? Some great respected Christian leaders? We really do not know if history by men is always correct. Thus, we cannot build our faith on what men who we think are respected or credible say. All we can go by is by what God's Word says in Scripture and ask Him for the understanding on it.

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” (1 John 2:27).

“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (1 Corinthians 2:13).

Again to clarify the 3 Jewish sources I quoted and linked to are, AFAIK, the most credible, reliable etc. sources available documenting Jewish faith and practice dating back to the time of the OT events.

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Again, the Jews did not always have correct beliefs. For one, they rejected their own Messiah. Two, there were Sadducees who rejected the resurrection.

You said:

The only thing which could refute them would be historical evidence of at least equal quality as the quoted sources. I have been posting that summary here at CF for about 2 decades and to date nobody has ever made an effort to try to refute the sources.

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It's because faith does not come by hearing history written by men, but faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (i.e. Scripture) (See: Romans 10:17).

You said:

As for Isaiah 34;10 one verse does not determine the meaning of a Hebrew word. How do we explain the fact that it is not still burning today? Hyperbole.

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Yes. Very good. Isaiah 34:10 is using hyperbole.
But you ignore these biblical phrases of how these words are used in Scripture elsewhere like in Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 20:10. It's the same wording. Yet, you ignore it in favor of what you have learned from supposedly better sources (that's not from the Bible).

You said:

Let us examine another word. The Greek word "kosmos" it means world but..

[1]Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]​

Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"

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Jesus said gain (not inherit) favor with the whole world. Jesus was not talking in absolutes, either. Surely he was not referring to select few individuals but the majority. In the Bible, many times there are exceptions to the rule on a truth expressed with words like “all,” “whole,” etc.; One example is that Jesus is the propitiation (or atoning sacrifice) for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), but Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 lets us know that those who worship the beast in the future never had their names in written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. Meaning, Christ never died for their sins on the account of what they would do in the future. Hence, they are an exception to the rule on 1 John 2:2.

You said:

Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?

[3]Revelation 12:9​

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Yes. This statement is true. The whole world was deceived by Satan. For do you not know that Christians are not of this world?

Jesus said,
“If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” (John 15:19).

You said:

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?

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Yes. Christians are not of this world. The rest are of Satan, and they are led astray by him.

You said:

Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?

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You said:

[5]Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.​

Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?

[6]Acts 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,​

Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"

[7]Acts 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?​

Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?

[8]Acts 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.​

Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"

[9]Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.​

Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"

[10]Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth​

Did "all the world" literally worship the goddess Diana?

[11]Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

Was the faith of the Romans literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"

[12]John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.​

Did the whole world literally go after Jesus?

[13]Acts of the apostles 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;​

Did the Paul’s companions literally turn “the world upside down?”

[14]1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

Did the “ends of the world” literally come upon the Israelite who disobeyed God at Sinai?

[15]James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.​

Is the tongue literally a world?
Let us use the fallacious aion/aionios argument on these verses. The word "world" cannot literally mean the entire planet earth because it refers to or describes things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."

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Well, I never stated that words such as “whole,” or “all” does not always mean all or whole. In fact, you are proving the case for Conditional Immortality by doing so. Sure, the Lord Jesus lives forever and ever in a literal way (Revelation 4:10). However, the words “for ever” does not always mean forever or eternal (as you know). We know that the words, “It shall not be quenched night nor day,” “the smoke thereof shall go up for ever,” and “for ever and ever” are metaphorical phrases from Isaiah 34:10. Isaiah 34:10 helps us to define these same words in Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 20:10. Edom was destroyed. So Isaiah 34:10 is hyperbole or a metaphor (as you know). So when these words from Isaiah 34:10 appear again in relation to punishment, we know it is speaking metaphorically and not literally. Well, that is if you want to be consistent with how words are used in the Bible. It seems you are more interested in outside sources in what they say; I simply strive to trust God's Word alone instead.

zoidar said:

Isn't the Lazarus story like the other stories of Jesus?

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In the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man: It has real names. One name is a person we know (i.e. Abraham). It has a name of actual places that is specifically named and sounds unique (i.e. hell, place of torments). It goes beyond our world (Which shows it is different than the parables in that they can happen in the real world), too. It also does not use the classic parable language like the use of the words, such as: “like” etc. (i.e. the Kingdom of Heaven is like...) suggesting a comparison between two things.

You said:

Like the prodigal son, it's not a literal story, but full of symbolics. What stories does Jesus tell that are literal? Jesus is literal when using historical examples. Do you think the story of Lazarus is an historical event?

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All the parables of Jesus are based on true things or real world examples that are true.


Do you believe Hollywood movies are all based on true stories?
Most of them are fictional stories. We Gentiles tend to blur the line between fantasy and reality because of the Hollywood bombarded culture that we live in. Think about this. If Jesus told us fictional stories that are not real in any way, then Jesus would be telling us make believe Hollywood stories that are not exactly based on anything in the real world. This would technically be telling untruth because these stories are not actually true. They are fictional. Jesus spoke and did everything the Father commanded Him.


Surely God is not into telling us fictional Hollywood stories to make a point. I believe all the parables have happened in the past at one point in time, or they could happen (as one possibility) if God allowed such events to unfold. They were things mentioned that has happened in the reality or could happen in the real world. Note: It is possible that certain elements of the parables have happened in other real world scenarios throughout history or time, as well. The point here is that the parables are true, and or they are based on truth.

Jesus is called a door. Sure, Jesus is not literally a door, but we do realize that doors are real, though (and not imaginary).

But to answer your question: Yes, I believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a real historical event in the afterlife or spirit realm. I believe it takes place during the time of Moses after the writings of the five books of Moses were put forth for all men to know (while the Old Covenant was in effect). For Lazarus was told that his brothers have Moses and the prophets to hear (and thus the hearing of one rising of the dead would not really convince them).

You said:

BTW, many people that read the story of Lazarus and the rich man focuses on the "hell question", but forget the real point of the story, which is we are to help the poor. We who have ought to give to those that don't have.

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True, but if one were to ignore the literal language of the existence of hell in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the necessity of helping the poor then becomes optional or not as important or vital. If the story is just a metaphor, then one does not need to really worry about suffering in a literal place of torments on the account of not helping the poor.

Besides, even if one wanted to write off the fate of what happens to the rich man in Luke 16, we still have a similar truth given to us in Matthew 25:31-46; For in Matthew 25:31-46, we learn that not helping the poor is the equivalent of being cast into everlasting punishment or everlasting fire (i.e. a punishment that has everlasting consequences by being destroyed by a fire that will be everlasting until it accomplishes its purpose in doing what fires do; Which is to consume things).

For me, one of the most convincing two pieces of Scripture for Conditional Immortality (i.e. destruction in the Lake of Fire) is Matthew 3:12, and Malachi 4:1-3.

The wicked shall be burnt up:
While words like “perish,” “die,” “destruction” can refer to the 1st physical death, words like these cannot be twisted to refer to the 1st physical death. This is clearly referring to how the wicked will be burned up. To burn up something means that a particular object or thing is cast into the fire or lit on fire whereby it is consumed by the fire. If I lit a piece of paper into a campfire, it will burn up. It will be consumed by the fire.

Those who wrongly believe in immortality for all from birth must reinterpret the Bible to say:

1. Those who are destroyed are not destroyed. (James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7)
2. Those who perish do not perish. (1 Corinthians 1:8: John 3:16)
3. Those who die do not die. (Romans 6:23)
4. The end of the wicked is not really their end. (Philippians 3:19; Hebrews 6:8)
5. Those who are consumed are not consumed. (Hebrews 10:27)
6. Mortals are born immortal; (1 Timothy 6:16) therefore, how can there be any such thing as being mortal? There are no mortals and could never be a mortal if all men are created immortal.
7. The second death is not a death; it is eternal life with torment. (Revelation 21:8)

Source:
Home - Conditional Immortality

Der Alte said:

You were doing pretty good until you got to Matt 25:46. If Jesus had intended to say "destroyed by a fire that will be everlasting until it accomplishes its purpose in doing what fires do; Which is to consume things)." that is what He would have said but He did not.
It may not do any good but I will repeat exactly what Jesus said.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. ​

Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. I don't think we need people coming along 2000 years later saying "Jesus did not mean 'eternal punishment' what He really meant was 'destroyed by a fire that will be everlasting until it accomplishes its purpose in doing what fires do; Which is to consume things.'"

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Right, so then you must believe Hebrews 6:2 is referring to “eternal judgment” as a judgment whereby God judges continually every person who existed for all eternity then.

What is the everlasting punishment?

Again, the “everlasting punishment” (mentioned in Matthew 25:46) is defined for us in another place in Scripture. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says,


Something that meets destruction is something that is destroyed. If I tell you I will destroy a piece of paper, you will understand that I will either shred the paper, or I will burn it, etc. You would not assume that I would somehow keep the paper from being destroyed while I light it on fire for eternity. That would be silly.

Der Alte said:

We can do this all day long. I have been active at this forum since Bill's second term. I have seen virtually every argument.
Wrong again the word translated "destroy/destruction" does not necessarily mean to cause something to go out of existence.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
…..Here is the definition of apollumi from BDAG, one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available
= = = = = = = = = =

ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
① to cause or experience destructionⓐ act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies υσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted ; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold
1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
② to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
③ to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
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[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000).
Link to earlier edition. http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

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So you basically want to discard the word “destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 because it does not align with your belief on Eternal Torment? That is not exegesis but eisegesis. The second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) in Revelation 21:8 is called the second death because it is related to the first death. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. If they were unrelated to each other, then the second death would not be called the second death, but it would be called conscious torture for all eternity.

Der Alte said:

We can do this all day long. I have been active at this forum since Bill's second term. I have seen virtually every argument.
Wrong again the word translated "destroy/destruction" does not necessarily mean to cause something to go out of existence.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
…..Here is the definition of apollumi from BDAG, one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available
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ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
① to cause or experience destructionⓐ act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies υσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted ; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold
1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
② to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
③ to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
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[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000).
Link to earlier edition. http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

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It doesn't matter how long you have been debating the issue. There are many who debate their false beliefs and their religions for even longer than that. Just because one debates for a long time does not mean they are correct on their position. Christians have debated certain topics their whole lives between other Christians.

@Der Alte

We know Jesus made parables. The Canaanite woman was also allowed to expound upon Jesus's parable with an expanded parable of her own. She used a real world example to illustrate spiritual truth. Jesus did not rebuke her for it, but he commended her faith for doing such a thing.

I bring this point up because nowhere will you or anyone else be able to prove the goodness of fair justice of Eternal Torment by way of a parable. It is just not gonna happen (Regardless if you argue this topic into the next couple of presidencies).

This is just one of many things that shows the bankruptcy of the Eternal Torment position. If one knows the truth of God's Word on this matter (as revealed by God), one will then realize the ridiculousness of defending Eternal Torment.

The position of Conditional Immortality has ultimately been won; It's simply a downhill battle at this point.

Der Alte said:

I don't recall quoting any parable concerning this topic so how does that prove anything about anything?
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis?” etc.
…..In the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

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The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.​

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KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

Paul, the same writer, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, in the same writing, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.​

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https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. Whoever has doubts/questions about the EOB version I suggest they read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

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And therein lies the problem. If you cannot make a parable or real world example to defend ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment), your view of Hell is bankrupt. Even the Trinity can be illustrated by way of real world examples.

Der Alte said:

Wrong again BL.

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My username is Bible Highlighter.
So the initials would be BH and not BL.

You said:

My beliefs had nothing to do with it.

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ECT has been taught as fact in evangelical churches. To go up against this means you may have alienate some friends; That's never appealing. In fact, one of the reasons why I held to ECT while I considered Conditional Immortality was because I could not think that the church could be wrong on such a major doctrine. So I disagree.

You said:

I relied on the context. Something that is "destroyed" i.e. no longer exists cannot be "from" the presence of God or anything else. Therefore "kolasis" in 2 Th 1:9 does not mean "cease to exist." Remember the prodigal son? He was also "kolasis" but he did not cease to exist. I can show you 68 other verses where "kolasis" does not mean "annihilate" or "cease to exist." Unlike you evidently, I have done the research.

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I know the KJV being the pure Word of God means nothing to you, but to me it explains this simply. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son: If you believed the KJV in the English as also being perfect (in addition to the original languages), you would realize that the word “dead” is used and not destroyed or destruction.

Besides, it would not even make any sense if the Prodigal Son were to cease to exist spiritually in the story. How does that work? Does Jesus make people who cease to exist come back into existence? Or does it make more sense that people die and are resurrected by Christ's resurrection?

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, if he was dead spiritually but alive physically, he could change his situation by seeking forgiveness with his father (i.e. Jesus being the Everlasting Father). The story makes more sense with understanding it in this way (and with the whole of Scripture). For how can somebody cease to exist spiritually?

So this point does not prove anything. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 still says everlasting destruction. You want to turn this verse into a metaphor because you want ECT to be true. It's all you have ever known. Jesus said,

“No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.” (Luke 5:39).

You said:

Speaking of "second death" the LOF is called the second death twice but no verse ever says that someone, something is thrown into the LOF then they die. In fact the scripture says that the devil, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF but they don't die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

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Again, you are failing to understand WHY the Lake of Fire is called the Second Death. If there is a sequel to a movie you like, it would not be a sequel if the characters and the storyline were entirely different and there was no related theme to the first movie at all (i.e. No connection). The reason why the Lake of Fire is called the Second Death is because it is related to the first death where the body physically perishes. If the sequel (the 2nd death) was unrelated and it was instead eternal conscious torment, it is really no longer a sequel or a second death anymore. It would be simply called something else. Again, your view like with 2 Thessalonians 1:9 has to allegorized to fit your belief that you are more familiar with. You have to allegorize the 2nd death to fit your belief. Yet, when it comes to words like “for ever” in Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 20:10, you ignore the biblical language of how these words are defined as a metaphor in Isaiah 34:10. Again, you have to look to a belief outside of Scripture and ignore what the text says in order to support a belief that you are comfortable with.