Do you believe in Territorial Spirits?

Bobber · Jun 30, 2020

Dan1988 said:
I don't mean to be rude, but you sound a bit like Simon the sorcerer in Acts 18:8 he asked the apostles to give him the power which Christ gave them.

Of course you do. That's because everything you're looking at is through the lens of a cessationalist that is only the Apostles were given or exercised power. And if you'll study out say the disciple Stephen.....he wasn't an Apostle....but God worked through him signs and wonders too. Acts 6:8 And as for Simon the sorcerer you spoke of that was a man who just wanted power for his self promotion, and not truly be in genuine relationship with God seeking to do his will. And I had already said in my post,

"We're also called to be people in true and genuine relationship and fellowship with the Spirit of God...."

Again I must stress, we have zero power against anything. We don't even have power over our own lusts and fleshy desires, so much less over any spirits.

You have the capacity to declare and decree boldly who and what you are In Christ Jesus and by doing so by faith there comes a release of the power of God in us to make those things a manifested reality. Philemon 1:6 That includes rising above the things of the flesh! If there's not in any sense of the word where we don't have a part to play in these things then why does Paul tell us to cast down imaginations 2 Cor 10:5 and all things which exalt in our lives the things of God. Why even the exhortations to walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh? Gal 5:16

I must also disagree with you regarding the Holy Spirit, fellowshiping with Demons.

Hold it pal. You've gone way beyond the context of what I've said. And that scripture about fellowship with demons had to do with a Christian wilfully and continually living in sin and Paul was declaring God is in no way involved in that. It seems you've stretched out an interpretation of this which is not warranted.

What fellowship has light and darkness.

You keep quoting that 2 Cor 6 passage but please let's read the verses.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you... 2 Cor 6: 14,17

It's talking about a person wilfully doing unrighteous things and living in sin. Sorry but it has nothing to do with can an enemy spirit seek to harass a Christian believer or even seek to lodge in a physical aspect of their being.

It's ludicrous to suggest that a person can be possessed by a Demon and the holy Spirit at the same time, I would go so far as to call that blasphemy.

OK fair enough. You can go as far to call something whatever you want. But maybe you should keep in mind as well you could unintentionally be holding back someone who needs delivered from things that bind them. Let's just put it down that we're all creating a legacy for ourselves which will last forever. We should at least pray for each other that we all receive revelation from God's spirit into a clearer understanding of truth Eph 1: 18 and not be jumping to conclusions that the other must be like Simon the sorcerer as you did above. In that I think you need to reconsider your position for sure.

nolidad · Jun 30, 2020

Andrewn said:
All definitions are from Wikipedia:

Territorial spirits are national angels, or demons, who rule over certain geographical areas in the world, a concept accepted within the Charismatic movement, Pentecostal traditions, and Kingdom Now theology.

A tutelary deity or spirit is a guardian, patron, or protector of a particular place, geographic feature, person, lineage, nation, culture, or occupation. The etymology of "tutelary" expresses the concept of safety, and thus of guardianship.

In late Greek and Roman religion, one type of tutelary deity, the genius, functions as the personal deity or daimon of an individual from birth to death. Another form of personal tutelary spirit is the familiar spirit of European folklore.

The numinous spirits of places in Asia are still honored today in city pillar shrines, outdoor spirit houses and indoor household and business shrines.

Peter Wagner promotes "Strategic-Level Spiritual Warfare" (SLSW) which involves the practice of learning the names and assignments of demonic spirits as the first step to effective spiritual warfare. Opponents of this theological construct, and associated beliefs in "spiritual warfare", point out that while the Bible may describe some form of demonic control over geography, it does not prescribe many of the behaviors and teachings that proponents advocate in response.

What is your opinion?

Territorial spirit - Wikipedia

Of course! Satan is called the god of this world (temporarily) and in Eph. 6 it speaks of his hierarchy.

Also in Daniel 10:
Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

So we see that there are fallen angels who rule over countries. Though not specifically mentioned, I am convinced that they also are rulers over states cities towns possibly even neighborhoods and even individuals can also have a demon assigned to them!

Andrewn · Jun 30, 2020

nolidad said:
So we see that there are fallen angels who rule over countries. Though not specifically mentioned, I am convinced that they also are rulers over states cities towns possibly even neighborhoods and even individuals can also have a demon assigned to them!

What do you think of what I wrote in message #15?

Also, I remember reading that Archangel Michael is guardian angel of Israel or Israelites. Do you know where this belief comes from?

Richard T · Jun 30, 2020

Dan1988 said:
Amen brother, you summed it up very well.
I was trying to point out that we don't have any power over spirits, but God has all power over them. So when it comes to casting out Demons it can only be done by the Lord, when we call upon Him to do so in faith.
We can command unclean spirits to leave, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. So we don't appeal to our own power or authority, but we are entirely dependant on Christ to cast them out.

I'm not sure if it's possible to cast them out of unbelievers. My understanding is, the possessed person must believe as well as the exorcist for a successful exorcism. I know of a case where a Catholic priest attempted to expel a demon out of a lady, and he was physically attacked by the demon and he ran out of the house and refused to have any further involvement.

I personally believe that both the priest and the possessed lady were unbelievers, so that's why their efforts were in vein.

Glad to see we are in agreement here. I am not sure either about unbelievers. There does seem to be some example of possessed people, who could not give true consent to be given mercy by God and as a result they may have relief. To this end there are reports of mentally ill, getting complete deliverance.

When I was a new Christian of maybe 3 months, I worked in an institution. A couple of the other workers found a guy doing some satanic mumbo jumbo and they did not know what to do. Eager and naive, I opened his door and shouted "Come out in the name of Jesus." To this day, I believe he levitated from a prone position to standing up without even bending, I hurriedly backed up and he slammed the the door. I would still not be afraid to do some deliverance but would rather refer to those who have the experience in this.

Francis Drake · Jun 30, 2020

Dan1988 said:
My Bible tells me otherwise, so it all comes down to how we choose to interpret the Bible.

I have asked several time that you give chapter and verse scriptures to prove your defeatist theology, where are they?
So far, you just keep repeating your fear based falsehood around, but nothing to back it up.

Francis Drake · Jun 30, 2020

Andrewn said:
I appreciate the discussion about casting out demons from people. But, getting back to Territorial Spirits, this belief is based on 3 verses in the OT:

Deu 32:8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when He separated the sons of man,
He set the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9 For the Lord’s portion is His people;
Jacob is the allotment of His inheritance.

The "sons of God" is taken to mean Territorial spirits that governed certain locations or peoples.

Psa 82:1 God stands among the divine council;
He renders judgment among the gods.

Again, the gods / divine council are understood to be Territorial spirits that governed certain locations or peoples.

I've never seen the above verses used to support territorial spirits.
Daniel10v13, being the obvious prime evidence of such.

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me for twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
So, this is the Biblical basis for the belief in Territorial Spirits. The question is are they still active as some Pentecostals and Asian Pagans believe?

I presume that's a deliberate insult to lump Pentecostals to pagans?
The real question is why don't all Christians believe what the scriptures say on the subject.

In the NT we read the following:

Col 2:15 And having disarmed rulers (arche) and powers (exousia), He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them by the cross.

And also,

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness to be kept for judgment;

So, the question is: Did the Lord Jesus conquer the Territorial Spirits to allow the spread of the Gospel, or do they still have authority?

Whether personal or territorial, anyone claiming that demons are no longer active today has obviously never read the various warnings in scripture of how to deal with them.

As said repeatedly, I have been involved in spiritual warfare for over 40 years. I have cast countless demons out of Christians and have dealt with territorial demons many times.

Francis Drake · Jun 30, 2020

nolidad said:
Of course! Satan is called the god of this world (temporarily) and in Eph. 6 it speaks of his hierarchy.

Also in Daniel 10:
Daniel 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Amen

So we see that there are fallen angels who rule over countries. Though not specifically mentioned, I am convinced that they also are rulers over states cities towns possibly even neighborhoods and even individuals can also have a demon assigned to them!

I've encountered them over many smaller institutions like churches and banks!

Dan1988 · Jul 1, 2020

Bobber said:
Of course you do. That's because everything you're looking at is through the lens of a cessationalist that is only the Apostles were given or exercised power. And if you'll study out say the disciple Stephen.....he wasn't an Apostle....but God worked through him signs and wonders too. Acts 6:8 And as for Simon the sorcerer you spoke of that was a man who just wanted power for his self promotion, and not truly be in genuine relationship with God seeking to do his will. And I had already said in my post,

"We're also called to be people in true and genuine relationship and fellowship with the Spirit of God...."

You have the capacity to declare and decree boldly who and what you are In Christ Jesus and by doing so by faith there comes a release of the power of God in us to make those things a manifested reality. Philemon 1:6 That includes rising above the things of the flesh! If there's not in any sense of the word where we don't have a part to play in these things then why does Paul tell us to cast down imaginations 2 Cor 10:5 and all things which exalt in our lives the things of God. Why even the exhortations to walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh? Gal 5:16

Hold it pal. You've gone way beyond the context of what I've said. And that scripture about fellowship with demons had to do with a Christian wilfully and continually living in sin and Paul was declaring God is in no way involved in that. It seems you've stretched out an interpretation of this which is not warranted.

You keep quoting that 2 Cor 6 passage but please let's read the verses.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you... 2 Cor 6: 14,17

It's talking about a person wilfully doing unrighteous things and living in sin. Sorry but it has nothing to do with can an enemy spirit seek to harass a Christian believer or even seek to lodge in a physical aspect of their being.

OK fair enough. You can go as far to call something whatever you want. But maybe you should keep in mind as well you could unintentionally be holding back someone who needs delivered from things that bind them. Let's just put it down that we're all creating a legacy for ourselves which will last forever. We should at least pray for each other that we all receive revelation from God's spirit into a clearer understanding of truth Eph 1: 18 and not be jumping to conclusions that the other must be like Simon the sorcerer as you did above. In that I think you need to reconsider your position for sure.

It's really hard to make a simple point, I've tried to use many different scripture verses to say that I don't believe that fallen men have any power over Angels and Demons.

I believe that God is the only one who has all power over His whole creation. He created Demons, so they must obey Him. They must ask God for permission to posses someone, so God is the One who grants them leave to posses and He's the only One who can get them out again.

You seem to think that you also posses this power, that's why I mentioned Simon. He offered the Apostles money, thinking he could buy this power. I've had dealings with "Charismatic deliverance Ministries", who failed to free me from Demonic attacks.

I have since learned that the only thing I needed to was to come before the Lord in repentance and faith. As soon as I did that, the Demonic attacks stopped. So I really didn't need to seek out a charlatan or a witch doctor, all I needed to do was go directly to the One who owns the demons.

Dan1988 · Jul 1, 2020

Francis Drake said:
I have asked several time that you give chapter and verse scriptures to prove your defeatist theology, where are they?
So far, you just keep repeating your fear based falsehood around, but nothing to back it up.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you still haven't learned the Bible ABC's.

I'll start you of on the warm milk of John 15:5 Here Christ makes it clear that you have "ZERO POWER" and without Him you can do "ZILCH"

I'll happily add another 23 verses on the same doctrine if necessary.

Dkh587 · Jul 1, 2020

Part of the mission of Messiah is taking back control of the earth from territorial spirits.

the Bible teaches that God gave up the different land masses and people’s to worship the other gods - and put them under the authority of the sons of God.

DebbieJ · Jul 1, 2020

delete

nolidad · Jul 1, 2020

Andrewn said:
What do you think of what I wrote in message #15?

Also, I remember reading that Archangel Michael is guardian angel of Israel or Israelites. Do you know where this belief comes from?

Liked the post. Your understanding of Deut 32 and the divisions of the lands is wrong. The original Hebrew is bene Yisrael which is the sons of Israel. The sons of god is written bene Elohim!

Michael is the protecterate of Israel.

I still believe in the territorial spirits. Jesus has conquered them just like He conquered Satan, but like Satan they still rule until the time appointed is accomplished!

nolidad · Jul 1, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Amen

I've encountered them over many smaller institutions like churches and banks!

Two excellent works of fiction written decades ago write of the spiritual war and how it interacts with man. "This Present Darkness" and "Piercing the Darkness" are excellent works of fiction. some extra liberties are taken (but they are fiction after all) but they do give a great narrative of how the interaction between the natural and spiritual can actually take place.

Francis Drake · Jul 1, 2020

nolidad said:
Two excellent works of fiction written decades ago write of the spiritual war and how it interacts with man. "This Present Darkness" and "Piercing the Darkness" are excellent works of fiction. some extra liberties are taken (but they are fiction after all) but they do give a great narrative of how the interaction between the natural and spiritual can actually take place.

I recall those books well, they were part of my learning curve!

Francis Drake · Jul 1, 2020

Dan1988 said:
Sorry, I didn't realize that you still haven't learned the Bible ABC's.

I'll start you of on the warm milk of John 15:5 Here Christ makes it clear that you have "ZERO POWER" and without Him you can do "ZILCH"

How on earth do you extrapolate such nonsense from that verse?
Jn15v5I am the vine; you are the branches. The one abiding in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit. For apart from Me you are able to do nothing.
From your constant profession of weakness and defeat, you act like an unbeliever and nobody would ever believe you are part of the vine.

Let me tell you a secret, I am part of the vine, and am hidden in Christ. And being hidden in Christ, I only function in his power not mine.
Additionally, I am seated with Christ in heavenly places, which puts me far above Satan and his demons.
Here's what I said back in Post No6-
"According to Jesus, he cast demons out, not by his own strength, but by the Spirit of God!
And that is how we cast them out, not by our strength, but by the Spirit of God. -
Matt12v28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

We are instructed by Jesus to cast demons out, its absolutely no big deal, just needs a little discernment and faith in who we are in Christ, that's all. I've seen youngsters cast demons out whilst adults get all twisted up with convoluted theology.

But if you insist you are powerless, and keep preaching weakness and defeat, then just like an unbeliever, you will remain powerless and in defeat.

I'll happily add another 23 verses on the same doctrine if necessary.

If your remaining 23 are as useless as the first, you need to do a serious rethink!

Andrewn · Jul 1, 2020

nolidad said:
Your understanding of Deut 32 and the divisions of the lands is wrong. The original Hebrew is bene Yisrael which is the sons of Israel. The sons of god is written bene Elohim!

I'm sure you're aware of the textual variants in Deu 32:8. Most scholars consider the Dead Sea Scrolls version I presented the more authentic version. How do you make sense of the MT rendering?

nolidad said:
I still believe in the territorial spirits. Jesus has conquered them just like He conquered Satan, but like Satan they still rule until the time appointed is accomplished!

Yes, this appears to be the case: weakened but not completely absent from the scene. But how did Satan get to hire rebellious angels in these positions to start with? Or is it God that hired them? I did read the stories you mentioned.

Dan1988 · Jul 2, 2020

Francis Drake said:
How on earth do you extrapolate such nonsense from that verse?
Jn15v5I am the vine; you are the branches. The one abiding in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit. For apart from Me you are able to do nothing.
From your constant profession of weakness and defeat, you act like an unbeliever and nobody would ever believe you are part of the vine.

Let me tell you a secret, I am part of the vine, and am hidden in Christ. And being hidden in Christ, I only function in his power not mine.
Additionally, I am seated with Christ in heavenly places, which puts me far above Satan and his demons.
Here's what I said back in Post No6-
"According to Jesus, he cast demons out, not by his own strength, but by the Spirit of God!
And that is how we cast them out, not by our strength, but by the Spirit of God. -
Matt12v28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

We are instructed by Jesus to cast demons out, its absolutely no big deal, just needs a little discernment and faith in who we are in Christ, that's all. I've seen youngsters cast demons out whilst adults get all twisted up with convoluted theology.

But if you insist you are powerless, and keep preaching weakness and defeat, then just like an unbeliever, you will remain powerless and in defeat.

If your remaining 23 are as useless as the first, you need to do a serious rethink!

OK, we will have to agree to disagree. Your welcome to interpret the Bible in any way that floats your boat.
I personally never add or remove anything from Gods written Word.

Francis Drake · Jul 2, 2020

Dan1988 said:
OK, we will have to agree to disagree. Your welcome to interpret the Bible in any way that floats your boat.
I personally never add or remove anything from Gods written Word.

You have repeatedly added to scripture, every time you tell people to run in fear of demons.

nolidad · Jul 2, 2020

Francis Drake said:
I recall those books well, they were part of my learning curve!

Writing to you about them, I am goiong to see if I can dig them out and re read them for about the 10th time!!!!!

nolidad · Jul 2, 2020

Andrewn said:
I'm sure you're aware of the textual variants in Deu 32:8. Most scholars consider the Dead Sea Scrolls version I presented the more authentic version. How do you make sense of the MT rendering?

Yes, this appears to be the case: weakened but not completely absent from the scene. But how did Satan get to hire rebellious angels in these positions to start with? Or is it God that hired them? I did read the stories you mentioned.

Well if there is a text of Deut. 32 that says bene Elohim (the sons of God) I am not aware.

But Satan didn't hire them, he is lord over the rebellious angles. He took 1/3 of them with him when he rebelled. So they serve him.

Remember Satan is a cherub which is the highest order of the three spirit beings most refer to as angels. There are angles, then the seraphim, then the cherubim. cherubs are a higher order above angels. Jude shows this clearly in that Michael did not debate Satan but rebuked him in the name of the Lord.

Satan is the fourth highest being in teh universe! He was the anointed cherub that covered Gods throne. Accoridn to ancient Jewish teaching, this means that all the praise of the univers and all communications with God were channeled through Satan.

Do you believe in Territorial Spirits?

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