(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

listed · Nov 11, 2017

Dig4truth said:
Who do you think these people are? A little study and you can find out.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel
Will be like the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered;
And in the place
Where it is said to them,
“You are not My people,”
It will be said to them,
“You are the sons of the living God.”

I agree with the text as you quoted and identified the people being spoken to are indeed Israel.

listed · Nov 11, 2017

Dkh587 said:
It's becoming very evident to me, that there are at least 2 different Messiah's in here, and in the world, that people are pushing: Messiah #1 & his Apostles taught obedience to God's law, and Messiah #2 & Apostles who teach disobedience to God's law(lawlessness)

The Anti-Messiah is called the man of lawlessness.

It is apparent to me that many are
/teaching/promoting the anti-Messiah, even right here on this very board & in this thread

Where? what Messiah are you talking about? We accept Jesus as the Messiah. We accept the words of Jesus.

listed · Nov 11, 2017

Dkh587 said:
Obviously, the anti-Messiah is not *the* Messiah

My point is that there are 2 different people being spoken of in this thread. The difference is their character, which is reflected in what they teach.

Some people promote a Messiah who taught disobedience to God's law and commands. Let's call this man "Messiah A"

Others promote a Messiah who taught obedience to God's law & commands. this is "Messiah B"

Messiah A and Messiah B have 2 different characters from one another. They cannot be the same person because they teach 2 different things.

The problem is that people use the same scriptures to promote both Messiah A or Messiah B. They can't both be right

People even call Messiah A and Messiah B by the same names: Jesus, Yeshua, Yahushua etc but they're still 2 different people. 2 different people are being spoken of & referred to.

Where is anyone teaching others to do evil and sin? i read the only people suggesting that are the law contingency. Really a smear job and false accusation.

listed · Nov 11, 2017

Trumpeter2 said:
1 John 2:4;
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelation 12:17;
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Do you want to talk about these verses?

listed · Nov 11, 2017

Dkh587 said:
It's not a false accusation. I've seen it many times - some directly say it, some indirectly say it

The Messiah taught his followers to obey the law. If anybody teaches that we are not supposed to obey the law, then they're going against what the Messiah said. And if they say that his followers are not supposed to obey the law, then they're making him out to be a liar, and are probably following another "Messiah", whom I would say is the anti-Messiah, aka the man of lawlessness

Where did Jesus teach the law as a requirement for eternal life? John didn't either.

Trumpeter2 · Nov 11, 2017

listed said:
Do you want to talk about these verses?

God’s Word speaks for itself.

Heb 4:12 - For the word of God isliving and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

FreeAtLast · Nov 11, 2017

Trumpeter2 said:
God’s Word speaks for itself.

Of course IT does. However, the problem comes in when we see people wrongly interpreting the Word of G-d and misapplying. That's why we have discussion groups, otherwise we would simply post nothing but Scripture.

But the Word of G-d tells us that the Holy Spirit helps us to understand G-d's Word, IF, we are truly born again unto Yeshua as G-d, by faith and His grace and He fills us with the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of G-d, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Dig4truth · Nov 11, 2017

listed said:
Where did Jesus teach the law as a requirement for eternal life? John didn't either.

Here are a few for you to consider.

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is onlyOne who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Mark 10:17-21 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.”21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Luke 10:26-28 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

FreeAtLast · Nov 11, 2017

Dig4truth said:
Here are a few for you to consider.

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Nope. Lawless is the absence of any law. It does not describe the born again Believer in Yeshua as G-d whose commands and law of the New Covenant we follow. So, all your "lawlessness" quotes are moot.

FreeAtLast · Nov 11, 2017

FreeAtLast said:
Nope. Lawless is the absence of any law. It does not describe the born again Believer in Yeshua as G-d whose commands and law of the New Covenant we follow. So, all your "lawlessness" quotes are moot.

Danthemailman · Nov 12, 2017

Dig4truth said:
Here are a few for you to consider.

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. *These many people were not true converts.

Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain attempt to receive eternal life based on the merit of their works. Jesus referred to these unbelievers as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! That is descriptive of goats, not sheep.

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is onlyOne who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Mark 10:17-21 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments, ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.”21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Luke 10:26-28 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

How do you define "keep the commandments?" Sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to ALL of Christ's commandments? Do you qualify for heaven under those terms? BTY the word "keep" in the Greek is "tereo" which means:

Short Definition: I keep, guard, observe
Definition: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.

5083 tēréō (from tēros, "a guard") – properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.

In regards to the rich young man, Jesus wanted to impress on him both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation based on his own merit. This should have resulted in a response about his failure, but instead he confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37).

The rich young man confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from following Jesus. The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). The rich young man went away sad because he could not part from his wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and He may respond to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. Jesus did not respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young man in the exact same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is that salvation is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Dig4truth · Nov 12, 2017

Danthemailman said:
In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is by works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus never knew them which means they were never saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. *These many people were not true converts.

Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain attempt to receive eternal life based on the merit of their works. Jesus referred to these unbelievers as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! That is descriptive of goats, not sheep.

How do you define "keep the commandments?" Sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to ALL of Christ's commandments? Do you qualify for heaven under those terms? BTY the word "keep" in the Greek is "tereo" which means:

My definition of keeping the commands is what Romans 10:4 says.

For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.

So to do what the Torah says is to believe on Who it points to, i.e. the "goal".

You are very correct to say that "keep" has the meaning of guard. It is to place a premium on God's Word like we would a treasure. To hold it in the highest esteem.

When we do that we understand that the goal of the Torah is the Messiah Yeshua. We understand that without a sacrifice we are lost in our sins. And that the ultimate sacrifice was the Lamb of God, Yeshua.

All these things are in the Torah.

There's only one thing in all of Scripture that I question, that is where Paul says that he is the chief of sinners. Perhaps he could say that because I was not born at the time.

Would I trust in obeying the Torah perfectly, no, only trusting in the One who did.

Do you think that part of that trust in Messiah is following what the Father said that He wanted His children to do?

visionary · Jul 1, 2020

Why does the dragon go after those who keep it, if if was done away with? The dragon should be laughing at those who still keep it, if God had done away with it.

Bob S · Jul 1, 2020

Was not Torah the laws of the Sinai covenant? Are you who practice the Messianic faith under the Sinai covenant? Who were the recipients of the Sinai covenant with its Torah laws? If you say you are under the Sinai covenant then you certainly cannot be under the laws of the new covenant, the one Jesus ratified with His own blood. You cannot be loyal to both covenants. Jesus said He came to fulfill the laws of the Sinai covenant and the prophets. What does that really mean? The meaning of fulfill is to complete or bring to an end. He certainly brought the prophecies of His coming to an end didn't He? Both prophecy and law are in the same sentence, so how could one be fulfilled differently than the other?

The fact is that God's laws are the laws Jesus gave us. Jn 15: 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

What commands did Jesus live under? Torah would be my choice. Did Jesus, in those verses, tell us we should also keep the commands He kept? It certainly doesn't indicate that He did. We are commanded to love others so much that we too would give our lives for our fellow man. That is what the new covenant is about.

Worship whenever you please, but not because you are under any obligation to the Torah of the Sinai covenant. If you believe that I believe you are missing a great blessing of being free in Christ. Salvation is about believing in Jesus and loving others as Jesus loves us. 1Jn 3:19-24 and is not connected in any way to the works of a covenant that has not existed since Calvary.

BobRyan · Jul 1, 2020

Bob S said:
Was not Torah the laws of the Sinai covenant?

same question - x200 gets same answer x200 -- but I enjoy the ride as do we all.

"Do not take God's name in vain" is certainly stated at Sinai - Ex 20.

And so it is included in the "LAW of God written on the heart" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34..
where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment in that still-valid unit of TEN - Eph 6:1-2

And of course - it is that New Covenant - unchanged to this very day that is the Gospel.

ralliann · Jul 1, 2020

visionary said:
Why does the dragon go after those who keep it, if if was done away with? The dragon should be laughing at those who still keep it, if God had done away with it.

There is more to torah than Mosaic torah. Abraham was not under Mosaic torah. That was not for another 400 plus years. The torah of faith came by Christ to all men.

ralliann · Jul 1, 2020

BobRyan said:
same question - x200 gets same answer x200 -- but I enjoy the ride as do we all.

"Do not take God's name in vain" is certainly stated at Sinai - Ex 20.

And so it is included in the "LAW of God written on the heart" under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34..
where "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment in that still-valid unit of TEN - Eph 6:1-2

And of course - it is that New Covenant - unchanged to this very day that is the Gospel.

How did they blaspheme God before the nations? By not keeping the torah of faith.

visionary · Jul 1, 2020

ralliann said:
There is more to torah than Mosaic torah. Abraham was not under Mosaic torah. That was not for another 400 plus years. The torah of faith came by Christ to all men.

I get what you are saying. What I am asking is about the dragon chasing down those who keep His commandments.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

visionary · Jul 1, 2020

Bob S said:
Was not Torah the laws of the Sinai covenant? Are you who practice the Messianic faith under the Sinai covenant? Who were the recipients of the Sinai covenant with its Torah laws? If you say you are under the Sinai covenant then you certainly cannot be under the laws of the new covenant, the one Jesus ratified with His own blood. You cannot be loyal to both covenants. Jesus said He came to fulfill the laws of the Sinai covenant and the prophets. What does that really mean? The meaning of fulfill is to complete or bring to an end. He certainly brought the prophecies of His coming to an end didn't He? Both prophecy and law are in the same sentence, so how could one be fulfilled differently than the other?

The fact is that God's laws are the laws Jesus gave us. Jn 15: 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

What commands did Jesus live under? Torah would be my choice. Did Jesus, in those verses, tell us we should also keep the commands He kept? It certainly doesn't indicate that He did. We are commanded to love others so much that we too would give our lives for our fellow man. That is what the new covenant is about.

Worship whenever you please, but not because you are under any obligation to the Torah of the Sinai covenant. If you believe that I believe you are missing a great blessing of being free in Christ. Salvation is about believing in Jesus and loving others as Jesus loves us. 1Jn 3:19-24 and is not connected in any way to the works of a covenant that has not existed since Calvary.

When a person gets married they make vows [commandments] and then exchange rings [covenant].

ralliann · Jul 1, 2020

visionary said:
I get what you are saying. What I am asking is about the dragon chasing down those who keep His commandments.

ya, me too.

(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

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