[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

Douggg · Jul 1, 2020

Timtofly said:
The Day of the Lord is the whole 1000 year period. The week of the Second Coming is the week leading up to the Day of the Lord. There are 3.5 years before the Second Coming when the Seals, Trumpets and Thunders gather the whole world in a harvest. It is Jacob trouble, birth pains. All humanity will be harvested. Rapture, death, separation of the sheep from the goats. Then the fire of the tares, and the wheat harvest. Jesus had 3.5 years and then was "cut off". The Trumpets and Thunderings are the last years of Jesus' earthly ministry. It is preparation of the actual Day of the Lord. The last 1000 years in this created reality.

Timtofly, the Day of the Lord includes the 1000 years. The Day of the Lord also extends forever into eternity.

It is the first beginning years of the Day of the Lord when all of the bad stuff happens during the Great Tribulation.

The Day of the Lord begins with the Transgression of Desolation act by the Antichrist in 2Thessalionians2:3-4.

Then a short time later, when the Abomination of Desolation statue image of the beast is placed on the temple grounds, that the beginning of the Great Tribulation is triggered,

Here is a chart of mine showing the beginning of he Day of the Lord, and its extension through the great tribulation and into eternity.

Douggg · Jul 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
I have heard a lot of "private interpretations" in my time...
please tell me WHY you think the False Prophet of Revelations
is NOT the same man as the "Little Horn" of Daniel 7 and WHY
you think he will claim to be Elijah?

Do you have any SCRIPTURE to support those claims...
or are they just from your imagination?

.

The litte horn is a king. One of the four prominent kings of the four kingdoms, Daniel 7:17.

The progression of the person through the different roles....

little horn > the prince who shall come > the Antichrist > the revealed man of sin > the beast.

Differently, the false prophet is a prophet, who makes fire come down from (Revelation 13:13), in similitude to what Elijah did in his (speaking on behalf of God) challenge to the prophets of Baal.

The false prophet, as a religious leader, causes them who dwell upon the earth to worship the image of the beast, or die if they refuse. Revelation 13:14-15.

The false prophet, the second beast of Revelation 13:11, is called the false prophet in Revelation 19:20 - for those things it says he does in Revelation 13:13-15 .

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

There are only two individuals in Revelation 20. The beast individual. And the false prophet individual.

5thKingdom · Jul 1, 2020

Douggg said:
Timtofly, the Day of the Lord includes the 1000 years. The Day of the Lord also extends forever into eternity.

It is the first beginning years of the Day of the Lord when all of the bad stuff happens during the Great Tribulation.

The Day of the Lord begins with the Transgression of Desolation act by the Antichrist in 2Thessalionians2:3-4.

Then a short time later, when the Abomination of Desolation statue image of the beast is placed on the temple grounds, that the beginning of the Great Tribulation is triggered,

Here is a chart of mine showing the beginning of he Day of the Lord, and its extension through the great tribulation and into eternity.

View attachment 280018

Dougg... since you have developed a chart about end-time
events I wonder if you can even DEFINE the words used during
this period. Can you please DEFINE:

(1) The First Revelation Beast
(2) The Second Revelation Beast
(3) The Season and Time after destruction of the Beast
(4) The "image" of the Beast
(5) The "mark" of the Beast
(6) The prophecy as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound"
(7) The "ten virgins" of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom"

Thank you in advance.

.

Douggg · Jul 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
I said:
The Abomination of Desolation "standing" (ruling) in the
"Holy Place" (Body of Believers of the Fourth Kingdom) is
the same as the "Man of Sin" who is "sitting" (ruling) in the
"Temple" (Body of Believers of the Fourth Kingdom) so the
answer of WHERE this occurs is in the "Body of Believers"
during the Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]

It is unclear what you mean.

5thKingdom said:
Tell me Douggg...
What makes you think the "ten virgins" went forth into
the world?

What makes you think the CONTEXT of the "ten virgins"
is more than the church?

Your question is presumptuous. The ten virgins are part of a parable to be ready for Jesus's coming for the rapture.

There is no "going forth into the world" - in the parable.

Douggg · Jul 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
Dougg... since you have developed a chart about end-time
events I wonder if you can even DEFINE the words used during
this period. Can you please DEFINE:

(1) The First Revelation Beast
(2) The Second Revelation Beast

I defined all of the beasts in Revelation in the opening post of my thread - "the beasts of Revelation".
The beasts in Revelation

1. The first beast in Revelation 13:1 represents both a kingdom and a man, who is king of that kingdom.

2. The second beast in Revelation 13:11 represents the false prophet, a man, who is not a king.

(3) The Season and Time after destruction of the Beast

The for a season and a time in Daniel 7 regarding the three kingdoms, is just a way of saying for a little while longer. Which is the millennium period in Revelation 20.

The end times nations (like Egypt mentioned in Zechariah 14:17-18) of what was formerly the babylonian empire, the medes-persian empire, the greek empire - will during the 1000 yr millennium be under Jesus's worldwide rule of the nations with a rod of iron

(4) The "image" of the Beast

It will be a statue image of the beast king. Which will be placed on the temple mount, out in the open, which the false prophet will have people gathered and/or forced to gather to bow before the image. And if anyone refuses, that person will be killed.

The statue image is the Abomination of Desolation.

(5) The "mark" of the Beast

It will be a visible imprintation on the forehead or right hand. A symbol of some sort... of the beast's name. Revelation 14:11 indicates mark "of his name".

(6) The prophecy as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound"

Shortly after the two witnesses are killed and come back to life on day 1263.5 of the timeline, the seventh angel sounds. It begins the process of dismantling Satan's power over the nations. Beginning with casting his invisible kingdom, mystery babylon the great, down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9.

(7) The "ten virgins" of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom"

I don't subscribe to your theory about there being ten virgins in that manner, nor a great tribulation kingdom.

Douggg · Jul 1, 2020

fwGod said:
I guess it bothers you that I have much the same position as you. That would not indicate getting involved in a battle.

But if you don't want to discuss anything about your position then just quit responding to my posts because as long as you respond I feel obligated to respond back.

I am only bothered when other posters here insinuate I am a dispensationlist or subscribe to dispensationalism - when I have clearly stated I am not either.

You can respond back all you want. But it is against the forum rules to call someone a dispensationalist when that person clearly states he is not.

So in your response(s) don't insinuate that I am a dispensationalist nor hold to dispensationalism. You can speak in generalities all you want.

BABerean2 · Jul 1, 2020

Douggg said:
I am only bothered when other posters here insinuate I am a dispensationlist or subscribe to dispensationalism - when I have clearly stated I am not either.

You can respond back all you want. But it is against the forum rules to call someone a dispensationalist when that person clearly states he is not.

So in your response(s) don't insinuate that I am a dispensationalist nor hold to dispensationalism. You can speak in generalities all you want.

The Two Peoples of God doctrine is the key to modern Dispensational Theology.
It claims faithful Israelites and the Church cannot be related, no matter what is found in Acts 2:36, and Romans 11:1-5, and James 1:1-3.
The doctrine falls apart once a person comes to understand the New Covenant.

Dispensational Theology claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary.

Its original source is found in the video below.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology

.

Douggg · Jul 1, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The Two Peoples of God doctrine

The bible documents that God says in Ezekiel 39:7 "my people Israel".

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

You are going to have to explain who Israel is in that verse, who had previously polluted God's name in some way, which you also need to explain.

Douggg · Jul 1, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Dispensational Theology claims God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary.

Its original source is found in the video below.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology

Bab2 you should start your own thread titled "Genesis of Dispensational Theology" and post your video there in the opening post.

iamlamad · Jul 1, 2020

Timtofly said:
The 7th Trumpet is not just a sound. It is a days long event. It is an angel who starts blowing the Trumpet in Celebration of the whole week of the Second Coming. All 8 days from Sunday morning to Sunday evening.

The 3.5 year time frame (of Satan) happens on Wednesday (if it happens). So this mighty Angel will not stop blowing even during the 3.5 years. Those extra 1260 days are still included in one long week.

The vials are poured out at the end. They are not in the 3.5 years. They are the second half of the week. Wednesday evening picks back up while the bodies of the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. Jerusalem was the city were the festivities began. So, while the 2 witnesses remain unmoved, the seven vials are poured out, and the 7th Trumpet is still blowing. On Sunday while the 2 witnesses arise and ascend to heaven, God Himself gathers all humanity left into the plain of Megiddo. Then in the last few hours all humanity is harvested. The false prophet and the image are thrown into the lake of fire. The rest go to sheol, until the end of the 1000 years. Sunday by end of day, those beheaded or killed during the last 5+ years are resurrected. Monday starts the 1000 year reign. Because of the elects sake, Matthew 24:22 it is a shortened time frame. It does not go on for years and years.

The Second Coming is one week. Satan could get 3.5 years in the middle on Wednesday. The two witnesses lay dead 3.5 days. Starting on a Wednesday afternoon to Sunday early in the morning. That is the extent of the 7th Trumpet and the 7 vials. God's wrath. The few years leading up to the Second Coming are the 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunderings. No one includes them, but they will happen after the 6th Trumpet. The church age cannot go past 1990 years from 30AD. Any human who does actual work (of any kind) after the start of the Second Coming, will be cursed with the mark 666. The business about economy is not the money. It is the labor. One cannot buy, sale or trade, without work. That was Adam's physical punishment.

By the sweat of the brow. By the mark 666 on the brow. Adam's punishment is over. Now; we are programmed by God to work. Now is over. God is telling us work and labor are over. What has stopped work and labor? God has. The 4th seal happened because the first 3 did not stop labor. Labor keeps going, because humans do not want to stop. The 6th seal happens and God rearranges the earth. Yet humans will soon forget God and attempt to keep working. God will send judgment after judgment and humans will still want to keep working.

Today we face a choice. Work of God, eternal rewards. Work of human carnal flesh, temporal pleasure while God keeps forcing humans to stop working. Yet some want to endure to the end. Endure by winning lost souls, or endure for sinful pleasure and what money can buy? By the middle of the Second Coming it will be either work, or get your head chopped off to prevent the body from working. Those with an expiration date of 666, will be rotten as if their names were never in the Lamb's book of life.

The 7th Trumpet is not just a sound. It is a days long event. It is an angel who starts blowing the Trumpet in Celebration of the whole week of the Second Coming

WOW: this angel must have some set of lungs!

Can we just follow the scriptures? God has "marked" the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it. The 7th trumpet is a very special event, for it is sounded to mark the day Satan is kicked off his throne as the god of this world. It is the day Jesus Christ gets his planet back. It is NOT the day Jesus returns to earth. there is NO COMING at the 7th trumpet.

God has given the Beast (And Satan behind the Beast) 42 months of authority over planet earth. Jesus is not coming back until those 42 months are up. This is His coming as shown in Rev. 19. (His coming FOR His church will be over 7 years before this.)

The vials are poured out at the end. They are not in the 3.5 years. They are the second half of the week.

The end of what? It is true, the 7th vial will end the week. But the first six vials are poured out to "shorten" those days of GT. Therefore they most certainly ARE in the last half of the week. The last half of the week will go from the 7th trumpet to the 7th bowl: from chapter 11 to chapter 16. The vials are written in chapter 16. There will be TIME between the 6th vial and the 7th: days to fill out the 1260 days or 42 months, but NOT days of GT.

So, while the 2 witnesses remain unmoved, the seven vials are poured out, and the 7th Trumpet is still blowing.

This is pretty much myth. There is not one hint that this trumpet sound is extended past the capacity of the lungs (supposing an angel breathes).
The two witnesses will die just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week, and will lay dead to the end of the week - to the 7th bowl. the 7th trumpet will have LONG SINCE quit sounding. It marked the midpoint of the week. The vials are poured out late in the last half of the week.

The rest of this post is mostly (if not completely) MYTH.

Douggg · Jul 1, 2020

iamlamad said:
Can we just follow the scriptures? God has "marked" the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends it.

Are you sure that the 7th seal doe not begin the 7 trumpets (which begin at the midpoint, more or less)?

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

And that the 1st seal does not begin the 70th week?

iamlamad · Jul 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
You have an amazing imagination...
saying not even God could open the book and
pretending the Satan could frustrate God.
Just amazing.

.

You think what is written is imagination? That is YOUR imagination!
Did you not read?

Rev. 5 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

This angel was searching for a MAN. This should be enough to tell us that God could not open it. The truth is, God does everything LEGALLY, and it would be illegal for anyone other than the person authorized by the writing on the back side of the book.

We know Jesus became a man. We know that He became a man LONG before 95 AD. We know He became a man around 32 years before He was crucified. Yet, at the time of this search, HE WAS NOT FOUND WORTHY to take this book and open the seals.

So what is God trying to tell us by including this search that ended in failure? it is very simple: it is to show us TIMING. This was before Jesus rose from the dead to become worthy.

By the way, I never said that Satan could frustrate God. God knew before earth was created that He would create this book as a legal document and have it sealed with 7 seals. Many people ask, why did God allow Satan to rule earth for 6000 years? It is very simple: God does things LEGALLY. Adam turned over his great authority and dominion of this planet to Satan. Satan usurped Adam's dominion and became "the god of this world." Jesus called him "the prince" of this world. It is amazing what one can learn when they meditate on scripture and pray much in the Spirit.

iamlamad · Jul 1, 2020

BABerean2 said:
How strange that we also find signs in the sun, moon, and stars, in Revelation chapter 6, just as they are found in the Olivet Discourse at the Second Coming of Christ.

I will also go with John there.

How strange that you can ignore Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, which reveal at time period of about seven years when the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles.

I will go with Matthew, and Paul, who reveal the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

.

Sorry, but the signs AFTER the days of GT cannot possibly be the same signs as those at the 6th seal that come BEFORE any part of the 70th week. Anyway, for those that study, they know these signs are DIFFERENT: can you tell the difference between a total eclipse of the moon and TOTAL DARKNESS? How could anyone imagine they are the same?

iamlamad · Jul 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
What is strange is that ANYBODY would think that
Revelations is written in chronological order.

The Beast is killed in chapter 6 and chapter 11
and chapter 18 and chapter 19... WHY in the world
would you EVER think Revelations is chronological?

Seriously... I really want to know.

.

When one's mind thinks myths rather than what is written, they may never learn the truth.

Why would ANYONE imagine Revelation is NOT written in chronological order? Let's see: seven seals numbered for sequence, seven trumpets numbered for sequence, 7 bowls numbered for sequence: even three woes numbered for sequence.

Here is TRUTH:
The Beast is killed in chapter 19. Period.
Chapter 6 is mostly church age leading up to and finally starting the Day of the Lord.
Chapter 11 is a MIDPOINT chapter. No coming, No Beast killed. (But there is some prophecy given by the elders.)

My Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

iamlamad · Jul 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
When the Bible talks about 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and
3.5 years (42 months) and 3.5 "watches of the night"...
please tell me WHY in the world you think the 3.5 "years"
is a literal time period?

Do you just IGNORE the other 3.5 periods?
Is THAT how you harmonize Scripture?

.

Let's see: Daniel's 70 sevens is proven to be 70 weeks of years.
Therefore the vial or 70th week would be a week of years. In prophecy God uses a 360 day year. Seven years times 360 days would be 2520 days. Daniel tells us some event will divide this period into two halves. 2520 / 2 equals 1260 days. Can we verify this theory with scripture? Certainly we can: with two scriptures: Rev. 11:3 and 12:6.

Daniel also spoke of a half week: twice Daniel wrote "time, times and half of time" or something like that. John confirms that is 3.5 years in Revelation, writing it the same way. John also verifies the half week with 42 months twice. In total we have 7 verses that show us a half week of 3 1/2 years, or 42 months or 1260 days.

Please tell us, why would ANYONE imagine this is not real time given in days, months and years?

iamlamad · Jul 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
I will tell you what child..
I will post a new thread on Daniel's Abomination
and then you will have a chance to offer SCRIPTURE
(instead of your "feelings") to refute what I say...

Is that fair enough?

BTW... I just posted a new thread on the "Final Harvest".
Maybe you can find some SCRIPTURE to refute something
on that thread... I noticed earlier today that you were left
speechless. Come-on... impress us with your Biblical
knowledge on the Final Harvest.

Instead... read the thread and LEARN SOMETHING NEW

.

.

So far I stand by what I wrote. We find a whole lot of myth on these threads.

iamlamad · Jul 1, 2020

5thKingdom said:
Child... why don't you provide some SCRIPTURE instead of
pretending your "feelings" prove something?

Can you do that?
name the chapter and verse that refutes my words.
Otherwise you are only embarrassing yourself.

.

It would be a total waste of time, for you KNOW. That much was easy to figure out. Douggg KNOWS, and others here KNOW.....but what they KNOW is not what is written. I find a lot of imagination on these threads.

iamlamad · Jul 1, 2020

5thKingdom said: ↑
The Abomination of Desolation "standing" (ruling) in the
"Holy Place" (Body of Believers of the Fourth Kingdom) is
the same as the "Man of Sin" who is "sitting" (ruling) in the
"Temple" (Body of Believers of the Fourth Kingdom) so the
answer of WHERE this occurs is in the "Body of Believers"
during the Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]

There is a "fourth Kingdom" in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, but they are certainly not any part of "the kingdom of heaven."

Mark wrote of the abomination "standing" where it aught not...but Paul explained that:

2 Thes. 2: 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

(Please note: before someone sits down, they are in a standing position.)
I will agree, Mark and Paul are speaking of the same event. The truth is, this is a REAL (would could say "brick and mortar) temple. When John will measure it, there will be people inside worshiping God. There will be an altar there.
So WHERE is this abomination going to take place? Answer: in a new Jewish temple not yet built.

.

BABerean2 · Jul 1, 2020

iamlamad said:
can you tell the difference between a total eclipse of the moon and TOTAL DARKNESS? How could anyone imagine they are the same?

Being a former Earth Science teacher, with an emphasis in Astronomy, and having observed several lunar eclipses, yes I know the difference.

During part of a lunar eclipse sequence the moon can appear to turn red, and during another part of the sequence the moon can appear to almost completely disappear.
Much of this is not determined by the moon, but rather by the Earth's atmosphere at the moment.

I have also observed several solar eclipses by using the proper filters.
The last one was a total solar eclipse in South Carolina.

How many lunar eclipses, and solar eclipses have you observed.

You are trying to force the Book of Revelation into a chronological sequence to make your doctrine work, even though the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, in Revelation 11:18 proves otherwise.
Christ returning as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16 is another problem for you.
Claiming these passages are a "parenthesis" is merely a dodge of what the text says.

.

iamlamad · Jul 1, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Being a former Earth Science teacher, with an emphasis in Astronomy, and having observed several lunar eclipses, yes I know the difference.

During part of a lunar eclipse sequence the moon can appear to turn red, and during another part of the sequence the moon can appear to almost completely disappear.
Much of this is not determined by the moon, but rather by the Earth's atmosphere at the moment.

I have also observed several solar eclipses by using the proper filters.
The last one was a total solar eclipse in South Carolina.

How many lunar eclipses, and solar eclipses have you observed.

You are trying to force the Book of Revelation into a chronological sequence to make your doctrine work, even though the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others, in Revelation 11:18 proves otherwise.
Christ returning as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16 is another problem for you.
Claiming these passages are a "parenthesis" is merely a dodge of what the text says.

.

You are trying to force the Book of Revelation into a chronological sequence to make your doctrine work,

Correction: I am FORMING my doctrine from what is written. This seems a difficult task for many here. They form a doctrine, then rearrange Revelation to fit. There is no forcing in my doctrine.

[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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