Blameless in the Law

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

  • Yes. Only Yahshua can follow the example that he called us to follow.

  • No. Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.


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Strong in Him

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God’s law = the law of Moses, the law of Yahweh

Jewish law = the traditions of the elders talked about in the NT, now called the Talmud and Mishnah

you are conflating the 2.

I'm talking about the laws written in Exodus and Leviticus, where the Lord says "these are the regulations for the sin offering .....", Leviticus 6:25; "you must not wear clothes of mixed fibres", Leviticus 19:19 etc. Also in those laws are instructions about skin diseases and being unclean, Leviticus 13:1-46. Unclean people were to be in isolation, and anyone who touched them, or the things they had touched, were unclean.

God’s law is not Jewish law.

following Messiah would include obedience to God’s law

Presumably God's law would include instructions written in Leviticus about standing up for elders, Leviticus 19:32, not cutting the hair at the sides of your head or trimming your beard, Leviticus 19:27, not sleeping with a woman at a certain time of the month but waiting until she is "clean", (for which she has to offer sacrifices), Leviticus 18:19.

Following someone biblically means that you live like them.

So you wear robes and sandals, speak Aramaic and go around raising the dead?
Where are we told that people in the west have to follow the customs and traditions of 1st century Jews?

Following Jesus means following his teachings, believing them and putting them into practice.
Jesus told his disciples to go to the ends of the earth, baptise and teach them everything he had commanded them (ie his disciples). He did not command his disciples to keep all the rules in Leviticus, nor tell them to teach them, and circumcision, to others.

Paul taught us to follow him as he follows Messiah - in other words, live like him as he lives like Messiah

Presumably you are an itinerant preacher and tent maker, then?

Paul was upset with any who taught circumcision or that the law saves.
You follow someone by emulating, and keeping, their words and values, listening to their teachings and putting them into practice - it doesn't mean you have to adopt their lifestyle, wear the same clothes as them, eat the same food, live in the same style of house, use the same kind of money and so on. Otherwise none of us, and especially women, could ever follow Jesus.
 
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Zao is life

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Please clear up my confusion then. You stated that I made an assertion in the OP. Please point to it, to clear up my confusion.

After you get done with that; perhaps you can explain the context of the word "blameless" in the two instances posted in the OP. Please explain how the views expressed in the OP, take this word out of context.

Thanks for your patience.
Paul stated that he had zeal for obedience to Torah before he came to know Christ and in respect of his zeal for obedience to Torah and his obedience to Torah, he was blameless.

Then he said he now considers all that (his zeal for the law and for obedience to Torah and considering himself or being considered "blameless" with regard to obedience to Torah), rubbish for the sake of knowing Christ, which he explains in Romans is the righteousness God freely gives through faith in Christ, which is by grace (unearned by obedience to Torah).

In the very next verse Paul even describes his "blamelessness" in terms of obedience to Torah and Zeal for obedience to Torah as dung:

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ (verse 8),

Then he goes on to say,

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (verse 9).

Obedience to Torah and attempts to be found blameless, as well as undue concern with being found blameless in terms of Torah = attempts to earn the stamp of righteousness - but that righteousness is a free gift from God which comes to all and upon all who believe in Jesus and trust only in Him and in His righteousness.

The Law that God writes on the heart of those whom the Spirit of Christ indwells is the very natural inclination to love God with all of the heart, mind, soul and strength and to love one's neighbor as yourself which Christ possesses and is breathed into the spirit and heart and mind of those who abide in Him, who is the vine, so that they can bear the same righteous fruit that exists in the Spirit of Christ which is living in them. The written Torah is only a shadow of this, and obedience to its manifold laws regarding unclean foods, and observance of sabbath days, new moon festivals and feasts is only a show of the good things to come in Christ, which has now already come. It's quite obvious that anyone who has the Spirit of Christ living in him or her is not going to murder, not going to steal, not going to covet his neighbors goods or wife, not going to tell a lie (bearing false witness about) his neighbor, will honor his parents, etc:

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love works no ill to its neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom 13:8-10.

The entire Old Testament now exists only for instruction, for teaching regarding righteousness, and to lead all who read it to Christ. The Torah, likewise, was a schoolmaster to lead to Christ: "so that the law became our child-conductor--to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous," Gal 3:24.

It's not good in terms of our relationship with God to continue to choose to misunderstand or ignore the plain truth of the gospel, which is that God credits righteousness to the one who has faith in Christ apart from any reference to Torah or obedience to Torah. Insistence on obedience to Torah is the same as hanging onto the covenant which God made with the people in the day he took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, which covenant was broken by the people and replaced by a New Covenant in the blood of Christ which was shed for many due to failure to obey the law - because the law, the Torah, cannot produce righteousness, no matter how blameless a person is in respect of obedience to it. Such righteousness exists only in the Spirit of Christ and is credited only to those who believe in Christ, through their faith in Him.

Paul considered his past way of life - his zeal for Torah and for obedience to Torah, and his blamelessness in terms of his obedience to Torah - as dung once he came to Christ. This is what he is stating in the passage you quoted.
 
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Dkh587

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I'm talking about the laws written in Exodus and Leviticus, where the Lord says "these are the regulations for the sin offering .....", Leviticus 6:25; "you must not wear clothes of mixed fibres", Leviticus 19:19 etc. Also in those laws are instructions about skin diseases and being unclean, Leviticus 13:1-46. Unclean people were to be in isolation, and anyone who touched them, or the things they had touched, were unclean.



Presumably God's law would include instructions written in Leviticus about standing up for elders, Leviticus 19:32, not cutting the hair at the sides of your head or trimming your beard, Leviticus 19:27, not sleeping with a woman at a certain time of the month but waiting until she is "clean", (for which she has to offer sacrifices), Leviticus 18:19.



So you wear robes and sandals, speak Aramaic and go around raising the dead?
Where are we told that people in the west have to follow the customs and traditions of 1st century Jews?

Following Jesus means following his teachings, believing them and putting them into practice.
Jesus told his disciples to go to the ends of the earth, baptise and teach them everything he had commanded them (ie his disciples). He did not command his disciples to keep all the rules in Leviticus, nor tell them to teach them, and circumcision, to others.



Presumably you are an itinerant preacher and tent maker, then?

Paul was upset with any who taught circumcision or that the law saves.
You follow someone by emulating, and keeping, their words and values, listening to their teachings and putting them into practice - it doesn't mean you have to adopt their lifestyle, wear the same clothes as them, eat the same food, live in the same style of house, use the same kind of money and so on. Otherwise none of us, and especially women, could ever follow Jesus.
Obviously, living like Messiah would be in reference to him obeying God’s law, not by wearing things like sandals. He taught obedience to God’s law, and so did Paul and the Apostles(they all lived in obedience to God’s law)

does it make sense to say, follow my example, but yet not follow the example they set?
 
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Dale

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It’s a literal version - just curious, what translation do you prefer? I can respect the CLV agenda of bringing out the meaning of the text, with the available resources we have. Sometimes it doesn’t make sense, but we are translating languages. Things don’t perfectly translate.

Most English translations have an agenda, whether visible or hidden.



This is what I've been able to find out.

The Word "hell" doesn't appear in the CLV because the translator doesn't believe in hell.

"It omits about 7 entire verses from the New Testament and about 2000 other words."

Some of the verses left out of the CLV:

<< Omits Matthew 17:21 - Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Omits Matthew 18:11 - For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Omits Matthew 23:14 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Omits Luke 17:36 - Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. >>


More verses left out in the CLV:


<< It Omits all of Acts 8:37 - “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

It omits Romans 16:24 - The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. >>


Source
Another King James Bible Believer
 
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HARK!

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This is what I've been able to find out.

The Word "hell" doesn't appear in the CLV because the translator doesn't believe in hell.

"It omits about 7 entire verses from the New Testament and about 2000 other words."

Some of the verses left out of the CLV:

<< Omits Matthew 17:21 - Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Omits Matthew 18:11 - For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Omits Matthew 23:14 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Omits Luke 17:36 - Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. >>


More verses left out in the CLV:


<< It Omits all of Acts 8:37 - “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

It omits Romans 16:24 - The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. >>


Source
Another King James Bible Believer

Right, the CLV doesn't repeat the lies perpetuated by the KJV.

Textual criticism - Wikipedia

Here is a good place to start sorting out these lies:

List of major textual variants in the New Testament - Wikipedia
 
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misput

JimD
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Obviously, living like Messiah would be in reference to him obeying God’s law, not by wearing things like sandals. He taught obedience to God’s law, and so did Paul and the Apostles(they all lived in obedience to God’s law)

does it make sense to say, follow my example, but yet not follow the example they set?
The scripture as well as the Apostles teach that all who claim Christ as savior try to obey the law but understand He is the only one who has. No sincere christian believes we should not even try to obey but understands we cannot perfectly, therefore by faith we are credited with righteousness. Anyone who seeks righteousness by the law alone will fall, just as Adam and Eve did. I do not think there are many who are stupid enough to seek salvation by the law alone, just as there are not many who seek salvation by faith alone.
 
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Dkh587

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The scripture as well as the Apostles teach that all who claim Christ as savior try to obey the law but understand He is the only one who has. No sincere christian believes we should not even try to obey but understands we cannot perfectly, therefore by faith we are credited with righteousness. Anyone who seeks righteousness by the law alone will fall, just as Adam and Eve did. I do not think there are many who are stupid enough to seek salvation by the law alone.
Adam and Eve sought righteousness through the law? Huh?

They thought they could live forever and not obey God’s commands.

they would have lived forever had they obeyed God’s command.
 
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misput

JimD
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Adam and Eve sought righteousness through the law? Huh?

They thought they could live forever and not obey God’s commands.

they would have lived forever had they obeyed God’s command.
Yes, thou shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil equates to the law which teaches about good and evil. They could not and neither can you or I.
 
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Dkh587

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Yes, thou shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil equates to the law which teaches about good and evil. They could not and neither can you or I.
Where did you get that from? I didn’t see that anywhere in the Scriptures.
 
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Blade

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I am no expert about the LAW. Oh I now what was.. what Christ did.. on and on. But the LAW.. with out the temple... what law is one talking about. Is this the 10 commandments? Can't be the full law 613 laws .. because with out the temple.. anyway

Did not Paul really go into this?
 
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misput

JimD
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I am no expert about the LAW. Oh I now what was.. what Christ did.. on and on. But the LAW.. with out the temple... what law is one talking about. Is this the 10 commandments? Can't be the full law 613 laws .. because with out the temple.. anyway

Did not Paul really go into this?
Yes.
 
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Thistle

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(CLV) Php 3:6
in acrelation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in acrelation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

Who says it's impossible?

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Does Yahshua call us to the impossible?

I would have added these:

""Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."" - Matthew 22:36–40 NASB

"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."" - Luke 10:25–28 NASB

Did you ever ask yourself whether you can walk in to the front door of heaven simply by keeping the Law? It's very important that we understand if Jesus is telling us that we are capable of being blameless under the law? We are at least being told that if we can keep the great commandment we are not going to violate any other law from God's perspective.

I think the first thing to notice in the context here is that in both instances the intention of the questioner is testing Jesus, not prying open the doors of heaven. So in the Luke passage the questioner throws in the eternal life element. Thus, Jesus addressed that in his answer. I think we should not read too much into the answer.

Yes, if we managed to die having kept the great commandment perpetually and cumulatively for the entire course of our lives, we could in fact just walk in the front door of heaven on the ground of merit, not having plead the blood of Christ on judgment day.

But I suspect you question is more of a sanctification one. As I read the epistles I believe the answer is we can't achieve perfection this side of glory, so the question becomes, what are these passages trying to tell us?

I think that it's telling us something very basic that we all seem to miss. God is our creator who made us "in his image." Because of this we exist with an absolute obligation never to violate his moral holiness. That obligation is absolute whether our forwarding address is in heaven or hell. This rule is absolutely universal. Furthermore God own the universe in which we live. That makes God the ruler of the universe which means we have an absolute obligation never to violate any of his moral laws. Given there is no place but this universe for us to exist, at least for the moment, that obligation is as absolute as it can be.

If that was the end of it that would be bad news. If God is perfectly holy and perfectly immutable then not damning law breakers to hell would destroy God's holiness on the fulcrum of his immutably, unless I'm missing something. After all God can't be less than completely God even for a nanosecond.

Happily God is also love. As such without violating God's justice which says his wrath must be pored out because of the violation of the law, how can redemption be consistent with Gods moral holiness. If only there were someone bigger than the infinite wrath of God to receive that punishment! But what could possibly be bigger than God's wrath? Well, that would be God the Son.

God is not just our Creator, and our Ruler, he is also our Redeemer. That means that the only plea that will work on judgment day will be, I appeal to the finished work of Christ on the cross, not to my obedience, to satisfy the judgment against my record.

But it's a funny thing. When we avail ourselves to this pardon, we receive the Holy Spirit. Power from on high. Now keeping that moral law, that is more possible for us now than it's ever been. Again as I read the epistles, I don't think anyone gets so completely sanctified that we never again fail to meet one of our obligations to God, but I think we can get a lot closer than we generally acknowledge. And in my judgment, that is the point of these passages.
 
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HARK!

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I am no expert about the LAW. Oh I now what was.. what Christ did.. on and on. But the LAW.. with out the temple... what law is one talking about. Is this the 10 commandments? Can't be the full law 613 laws .. because with out the temple.. anyway

The Decalogue is part of it.

The full 613 never applied to any one person. Each person keeps what he is responsible for keeping.
 
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HARK!

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""Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."" - Matthew 22:36–40 NASB

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,
 
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HARK!

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For the self-righteous, or those who think they could or can get there on their own merits or all by themselves, yes...

God Bless!

I don't believe that Yahshua lays traps. I think that's the other guy.
 
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I would have added these:

""Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."" - Matthew 22:36–40 NASB

"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."" - Luke 10:25–28 NASB

Did you ever ask yourself whether you can walk in to the front door of heaven simply by keeping the Law? It's very important that we understand if Jesus is telling us that we are capable of being blameless under the law? We are at least being told that if we can keep the great commandment we are not going to violate any other law from God's perspective.

I think the first thing to notice in the context here is that in both instances the intention of the questioner is testing Jesus, not prying open the doors of heaven. So in the Luke passage the questioner throws in the eternal life element. Thus, Jesus addressed that in his answer. I think we should not read too much into the answer.

Yes, if we managed to die having kept the great commandment perpetually and cumulatively for the entire course of our lives, we could in fact just walk in the front door of heaven on the ground of merit, not having plead the blood of Christ on judgment day.

But I suspect you question is more of a sanctification one. As I read the epistles I believe the answer is we can't achieve perfection this side of glory, so the question becomes, what are these passages trying to tell us?

I think that it's telling us something very basic that we all seem to miss. God is our creator who made us "in his image." Because of this we exist with an absolute obligation never to violate his moral holiness. That obligation is absolute whether our forwarding address is in heaven or hell. This rule is absolutely universal. Furthermore God own the universe in which we live. That makes God the ruler of the universe which means we have an absolute obligation never to violate any of his moral laws. Given there is no place but this universe for us to exist, at least for the moment, that obligation is as absolute as it can be.

If that was the end of it that would be bad news. If God is perfectly holy and perfectly immutable then not damning law breakers to hell would destroy God's holiness on the fulcrum of his immutably, unless I'm missing something. After all God can't be less than completely God even for a nanosecond.

Happily God is also love. As such without violating God's justice which says his wrath must be pored out because of the violation of the law, how can redemption be consistent with Gods moral holiness. If only there were someone bigger than the infinite wrath of God to receive that punishment! But what could possibly be bigger than God's wrath? Well, that would be God the Son.

God is not just our Creator, and our Ruler, he is also our Redeemer. That means that the only plea that will work on judgment day will be, I appeal to the finished work of Christ on the cross, not to my obedience, to satisfy the judgment against my record.

But it's a funny thing. When we avail ourselves to this pardon, we receive the Holy Spirit. Power from on high. Now keeping that moral law, that is more possible for us now than it's ever been. Again as I read the epistles, I don't think anyone gets so completely sanctified that we never again fail to meet one of our obligations to God, but I think we can get a lot closer than we generally acknowledge. And in my judgment, that is the point of these passages.
Brings to mind the question, how long were Adam and Eve in the garden before they sinned? My guess would be about 15 minutes, according to your reasoning, maybe 20 : )
 
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