The Lake Of Fire

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
True, man sees only what he wants to see. There's a way that seems right to him, but that way leads to death (Pro 14:10). When given the choice, in his fallen state man will always choose unwisely despite the explicit directions of God (Deut 30:15-20). Man after Adam is completely enslaved to sin and the devil who wields the power of death. HE CANNOT SAVE HIMSELF by his own efforts. A saviour, heaven's anointed messiah is needed to ransom man back from his imprisonment, to open blind eyes, free the slaves, liberate the captives and so on (Isa 61:1-3, Mt 11:5, Lk 4:18). Salvation is the work of God. God is Salvation. Are these not the essentials of the Christian faith?

Therefore how cruel it is to preach to fallen man that he must choose God else he will be condemned to burn forever. When it is precisely that very irrational and burdensome proposition from which he needs saving!

But He said, "Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. (Lk 11:46)

My brother from down under: you have been a breath of fresh air at C.F.

This journey our Father has begun in us, the broken and bruised, is one of awakenings to Him and His mighty purpose in the Son of His love.

Our imprisonment as the captive rebels of sin has been one long incarceration. I cannot grasp how the shackles of captivity have been broken, or how the healing rays of Him have opened our poor blind eyes to a new Horizon.

Do you long to know Him more fully? I do!

Shrewd Manager · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
My brother from down under: you have been a breath of fresh air at C.F.

This journey our Father has begun in us, the broken and bruised, is one of awakenings to Him and His mighty purpose in the Son of His love.

CF is a good place for a restorationist to get battered and bruised, and grow in love (although the spirit of debate is an issue).

FineLinen said:
Our imprisonment as the captive rebels of sin has been one long incarceration. I cannot grasp how the shackles of captivity have been broken, or how the healing rays of Him have opened our poor blind eyes to a new Horizon.

I believe our broadest hopes are pitifully inadequate. It occurs to me that every word God speaks in heaven is experienced as a miracle on earth. Miracles are His lexicon.

We can presently only be inspired to start to envision how we are known, the perfect beauty and depth of His image of his creation and its purpose, the awesome magnitude of its riches.

Lord open our eyes and ears, our hearts and minds that we might know you better.

Major1 · Jun 30, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
True, man sees only what he wants to see. There's a way that seems right to him, but that way leads to death (Pro 14:10). When given the choice, in his fallen state man will always choose unwisely despite the explicit directions of God (Deut 30:15-20). Man after Adam is completely enslaved to sin and the devil who wields the power of death. HE CANNOT SAVE HIMSELF by his own efforts. A saviour, heaven's anointed messiah is needed to ransom man back from his imprisonment, to open blind eyes, free the slaves, liberate the captives and so on (Isa 61:1-3, Mt 11:5, Lk 4:18). Salvation is the work of God. God is Salvation. Are these not the essentials of the Christian faith?

Therefore how cruel it is to preach to fallen man that he must choose God else he will be condemned to burn forever. When it is precisely that very irrational and burdensome proposition from which he needs saving!

But He said, "Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. (Lk 11:46)

I understand why you and Finelinen have the Universalist belief. There are many people who have lost loved ones who were not saved and to now think of where they is more than the mind and heart can accept. So what do you do??? You agree with a theology, COMPLETLY ALIEN to the Word of God and embrace it because it give you comfort over your loss. I get it, I really do.

You said...….
"Therefore how cruel it is to preach to fallen man that he must choose God else he will be condemned to burn forever. When it is precisely that very irrational and burdensome proposition from which he needs saving!

Have you read Matthew 7:21-23...…….
"If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

What then about Matthew 10:28....
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 16:23 then says...….
"In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."

Rev. 14:11...……...
“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Rev. 14:15...…...
“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

Rev. 21:8...………...
“But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

2 Thess. 1:9...……..
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,”

Mathew 25:46......…...
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 3:17......….
“His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Now you and Finelinen can believe anything you choose to believe. You can even believe that goldfish and talk for as much as I care. But what you CAN NOT DO is say.....
"Therefore how cruel it is to preach to fallen man that he must choose God else he will be condemned to burn forever. When it is precisely that very irrational and burdensome proposition from which he needs saving!"

That 100% opposite of what Jesu Christ, God in the flesh said.

Your theology would be more correctly said if you said.......
"IT IS MY OPINION THAT IT IS CRUEL TO PREACH TO FALLEN MAN THAT HE MUST CHOOSE GOD OR ELSE HE WILL BE CONDEMNED TO BURN FOREEVER".

Now WHY do I say that???? Because the way you are presenting YOUR opinion is calling GOD A LIAR!!

In Matthew 5:22, God in the flesh, Jesus Christ said...…….
" But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Now, if you two men would take the time to do a real in depth Bible study, you will see that Jesus Christ, the Creator and Saviour preached MORE ON HELL THAT HE DID HEAVEN.

WHY IS THAT THE CASE????

Why would He warn people so strongly if it were not conscious punishment? Why would He keep on giving these strong warnings? “What’s all the fuss about? I can be passive if I want to.” Why did Jesus come if God has no wrath? What did He save us from? Ask yourself these questions.

Matthew 23:33 ...…….
“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?”

David Wilkerson gave a whole different perspective on Mark 9:48

This verse says in Hell “their worm will not die” automatically you see that this is not an ordinary worm. This is a personal worm. There was a young man who woke up and found himself in the fiery darkness of Hell, he woke up to the screams of lost souls in Hell. He said, “I can’t be in Hell. If only I had one more chance.” As soon as he said that he woke up. It was all a dream. He was in his living room.

He looked around and he saw his dad having Bible study in the living room and he said, “dad I’m going to get right with God.” This young man closed his eyes and began to call on the name of Jesus. Right before he said Jesus he opened his eyes and he was back in HELL! IT WASN’T A DREAM IT WAS REAL! This worm refers to a guilty conscience that can’t be cured.

Major1 · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
My brother from down under: you have been a breath of fresh air at C.F.

This journey our Father has begun in us, the broken and bruised, is one of awakenings to Him and His mighty purpose in the Son of His love.

Our imprisonment as the captive rebels of sin has been one long incarceration. I cannot grasp how the shackles of captivity have been broken, or how the healing rays of Him have opened our poor blind eyes to a new Horizon.

Do you long to know Him more fully? I do!

Who in this world that is born again does not want to know Jesus in a more fully way????

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Joshua 24:15 ...
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Job 34:4
“Let us choose for ourselves what is right;Let us know among ourselves what is good.

Psalm 25:12
"Who is the man who fears the Lord? He will instruct him in the way he should choose.

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2020

“If sin is anything that separates us from God and from each other; and if God is to be “all in all,” then he must sooner or later destroy all sin and thus remove every stain from his creation.

According to the New Testament as a whole, God has a two-fold strategy, I want to suggest, for accomplishing this end.

On the one hand, he sent his Son in the flesh to defeat, in some unexplained mystical way, the powers of darkness and to pioneer the way of salvation (see Heb 2:10)—a way of repentance, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice.

On the other hand, for those who refuse to step into his ordained system of repentance, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice, he has an alternative strategy: in their estrangement from God, they will experience his love as a consuming fire; that is, as wrath, as punishment, and, in the end, as a means of correction.

So in that sense, they will literally pay for their sin; and God will never—not in this age and not in the age to come—forgive (or set aside) the final payment they owe, which is voluntarily to step inside the ordained system of repentance, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice. As Jesus said, using the analogy of someone being thrown into prison, “Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny” (Matt 5:25) -Thomas Talbott (The Inescapable Love of God)-

Major1 · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
“If sin is anything that separates us from God and from each other; and if God is to be “all in all,” then he must sooner or later destroy all sin and thus remove every stain from his creation.

According to the New Testament as a whole, God has a two-fold strategy, I want to suggest, for accomplishing this end.

On the one hand, he sent his Son in the flesh to defeat, in some unexplained mystical way, the powers of darkness and to pioneer the way of salvation (see Heb 2:10)—a way of repentance, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice.

On the other hand, for those who refuse to step into his ordained system of repentance, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice, he has an alternative strategy: in their estrangement from God, they will experience his love as a consuming fire; that is, as wrath, as punishment, and, in the end, as a means of correction.

So in that sense, they will literally pay for their sin; and God will never—not in this age and not in the age to come—forgive (or set aside) the final payment they owe, which is voluntarily to step inside the ordained system of repentance, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice. As Jesus said, using the analogy of someone being thrown into prison, “Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny” (Matt 5:25) -Thomas Talbott (The Inescapable Love of God)-

You said...……...
"“If sin is anything that separates us from God and from each other; and if God is to be “all in all,” then he must sooner or later destroy all sin and thus remove every stain from his creation.

"IF" does not apply Finelinen".

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

Then you said...……..
"then he must sooner or later destroy all sin and thus remove every stain from his creation."

That is correct. It will happen at the end of the 1000 year rule of Christ.

Rev. 21:3-4...……...
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Then you said...……...

"According to the New Testament as a whole, God has a two-fold strategy, I want to suggest, for accomplishing this end.

On the one hand, he sent his Son in the flesh to defeat, in some unexplained mystical way, the powers of darkness and to pioneer the way of salvation (see Heb 2:10)—a way of repentance, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice.

On the other hand, for those who refuse to step into his ordained system of repentance, forgiveness, and personal sacrifice, he has an alternative strategy: in their estrangement from God, they will experience his love as a consuming fire; that is, as wrath, as punishment, and, in the end, as a means of correction.'

You are almost correct!

First of all you are SUGGESTING YOUR OWN PERSONAL OPINION.

1. Yes in that God sent the Lord Jesus Christ to be the payment for the sins of all men of all ages WHO WOULD ACCEPT HIM AS THE PAYMENT FOR THEIR SIN BY FAITH.

2. There are NO Scriptures which suggest that in the end of time, all those in the Lake of Fire as a means of correction, will be removed from the LOF and allowed to go to heaven.

That is completely a figment of your imagination.

Physical death end Gods grace, mercy and salvation.

Hebrews 9:27....

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2020

Major1 said:
Physical death end Gods grace, mercy and salvation.

Dear Lord: Please be advised Your steadfast love that never ceases has an expiration date.

Major1 · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Lord: Please be advised Your steadfast love that never ceases has an expiration date.

For those of you who read these posts.....please understand that I am not debating with the UNIVERSALISTS on this forum because I like to argue.

I am doing it so that anyone reading will be exposed to the other side of the story being told here by them.....the BIBLE SIDE.

I have NO animosity toward any of these people. As far as I know they are excellent and well meaning people.

Now having said that, For those who refuse to CHOOSE God’s salvation, physical death and spiritual death culminate in the “second death” according to the Word of God in Revelation 20:14...……….
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

This eternal death is not annihilation, as some have taught, and there is NO EXIT as some still teach, but is a conscious, eternal punishment for sins in the lake of fire, described as being separated from the presence of the Lord.

2 Thess. 1:9...………..
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the LORD, and from the glory of his power".

No matter what is posted here, you should know that there is NO SECOND CHANCE after death anywhere in the Bible whereby anyone is removed from the Lake of Fire. ZERO. NONE!

You will have no second chance after you die. You must come to Jesus in this life or you will not come at all.

Because of very bad Bible knowledge, I have agreed with my friends on the fact that there has been a lot of twisted reasoning, and parents would inevitably witness the suffering of their own children and vice versa, relishing in it on the torments of hell. Husbands and wives would feel joy in seeing unbelieving spouses tortured forever. Worst of all, the doctrine paints God as sadistic, cruel and merciless instead of the loving and good God that He is.

However, Those who insist that the Bible does not teache eternal torment by fire should ask whether such a belief is consistent with what the Bible teaches us about God and what has already been said in His Word.

If God says that the Rich man was in torments and he wanted Abraham to put a drop of water on his tongue because he was tormented in the flame.....why do we and by what authority do we have to say that those words are not true.

We then are calling God a liar!!!!

THINK!!!!

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Lord: Please be advised Your steadfast love that never ceases has an expiration date.

The limitation of God's mercy, if it were possible, would be the condemnation of God Himself.

If there are limits to His mercy, then the word of God, which says that "His mercy endures forever," is a lie.

The limitation of God's mercy makes the disobedience of Adam more powerful and enduring than the obedience of Christ.

I am glad for a Gospel that is co-extensive with, and greater than the devil's work in spirit, soul and body.

I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to a man's heartbeat, for our great High Priest is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.

I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to one age, or to the three-score-and-ten years of man's frail existence, but reaches out into the ages to come until God is all and all.

I am so glad for a Gospel which tells me that God has made a way by which even His banished may return.

The Lord Jesus, the Christ, said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw" - how many?

"ALL men." -J. Preston Eby-

There is that radical all of pas again.

Is our Father lying when He declares He will draw the radical all to Christ?

Is our God and Father lying when He declares the whole of created life shall be delivered & set free?

Is our God lying when He declares the entire heavens, earth and underworld will bow in worship IN/EN His Name?

Is our God lying when He proclaims everything shall be consummated in Himself in the fulness of times?

Is our God lying when He proclaims He is the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world (the hilasmos of the holos)?

Is our God the Source, Guide & Goal of the radical ta panta?

Major1 · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
The limitation of God's mercy, if it were possible, would be the condemnation of God Himself.

If there are limits to His mercy, then the word of God, which says that "His mercy endures forever," is a lie.

The limitation of God's mercy makes the disobedience of Adam more powerful and enduring than the obedience of Christ.

I am glad for a Gospel that is co-extensive with, and greater than the devil's work in spirit, soul and body.

I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to a man's heartbeat, for our great High Priest is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.

I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to one age, or to the three-score-and-ten years of man's frail existence, but reaches out into the ages to come until God is all and all.

I am so glad for a Gospel which tells me that God has made a way by which even His banished may return.

The Lord Jesus, the Christ, said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw" - how many?

"ALL men." -J. Preston Eby-

There is that radical all of pas again.

Is our Father lying when He declares He will draw the radical all to Christ?

Is our God and Father lying when He declares the whole of created life shall be delivered & set free?

Is our God lying when He declares the entire heavens, earth and underworld will bow in worship IN/EN His Name?

Is our God lying when He proclaims everything shall be consummated in Himself in the fulness of times?

Is our God lying when He proclaims He is the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world (the hilasmos of the holos)?

Is our God the Source, Guide & Goal of the radical ta panta?

God does not lie. However...…..
Psalm 116:11 ........"in my alarm I said, "Everyone is a liar."

Der Alte · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
The limitation of God's mercy, if it were possible, would be the condemnation of God Himself.

FineLinen said:
If there are limits to His mercy, then the word of God, which says that "His mercy endures forever," is a lie.
The limitation of God's mercy makes the disobedience of Adam more powerful and enduring than the obedience of Christ.

False, deceptive narrative. Several opponents, including myself, have repeatedly asked the purveyors universal reconciliation for even one, two or more would be better, scripture which states clearly and unequivocally that God will save all mankind even the unrighteous after death.

I am glad for a Gospel that is co-extensive with, and greater than the devil's work in spirit, soul and body.
I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to a man's heartbeat, for our great High Priest is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.
I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to one age, or to the three-score-and-ten years of man's frail existence, but reaches out into the ages to come until God is all and all.
I am so glad for a Gospel which tells me that God has made a way by which even His banished may return.
The Lord Jesus, the Christ, said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw" - how many?
"ALL men." -J. Preston Eby-
There is that radical all of pas again.
Is our Father lying when He declares He will draw the radical all to Christ?

Is our God and Father lying when He declares the whole of created life shall be delivered & set free?

Where does God say the whole of created life shall be delivered & set free?

Is our God lying when He declares the entire heavens, earth and underworld will bow in worship IN/EN His Name?

No such scripture.

Is our God lying when He proclaims everything shall be consummated in Himself in the fulness of times?
Is our God lying when He proclaims He is the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world (the hilasmos of the holos)?
Is our God the Source, Guide & Goal of the radical ta panta?

God does not "lose" anyone or anything but God does give up many.

Romans 1:24
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Psalms 81:11-12
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
2 Chronicles 30:7
7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see.
Revelation 22:11
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Major1 · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
The limitation of God's mercy, if it were possible, would be the condemnation of God Himself.

If there are limits to His mercy, then the word of God, which says that "His mercy endures forever," is a lie.

The limitation of God's mercy makes the disobedience of Adam more powerful and enduring than the obedience of Christ.

I am glad for a Gospel that is co-extensive with, and greater than the devil's work in spirit, soul and body.

I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to a man's heartbeat, for our great High Priest is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.

I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to one age, or to the three-score-and-ten years of man's frail existence, but reaches out into the ages to come until God is all and all.

I am so glad for a Gospel which tells me that God has made a way by which even His banished may return.

The Lord Jesus, the Christ, said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw" - how many?

"ALL men." -J. Preston Eby-

There is that radical all of pas again.

Is our Father lying when He declares He will draw the radical all to Christ?

Is our God and Father lying when He declares the whole of created life shall be delivered & set free?

Is our God lying when He declares the entire heavens, earth and underworld will bow in worship IN/EN His Name?

Is our God lying when He proclaims everything shall be consummated in Himself in the fulness of times?

Is our God lying when He proclaims He is the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world (the hilasmos of the holos)?

Is our God the Source, Guide & Goal of the radical ta panta?

The blessings of the gospel apply only to those who are alive.

When we ignore/reject the gospel and die in our sins......
we are then done for all eternity.

Death closes the door of God's grace as there is NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IS THERE ANYTHING THAT SAYS WE GET A SECOND CHANCE.

Major1 · Jun 30, 2020

Der Alte said:
False, deceptive narrative. Several opponents, including myself, have repeatedly asked the purveyors universal reconciliation for even one, two or more would be better, scripture which states clearly and unequivocally that God will save all mankind even the unrighteous after death.

Where does God say the whole of created life shall be delivered & set free?

No such scripture.

God does not "lose" anyone or anything but God does give up many.

Romans 1:24
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Psalms 81:11-12
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
2 Chronicles 30:7
7 And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see.
Revelation 22:11
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Agreed!

Der Alte · Jun 30, 2020

Major1 said:
For those of you who read these posts.....please understand that I am not debating with the UNIVERSALISTS on this forum because I like to argue.
I am doing it so that anyone reading will be exposed to the other side of the story being told here by them.....the BIBLE SIDE.
I have NO animosity toward any of these people. As far as I know they are excellent and well meaning people.
Now having said that, For those who refuse to CHOOSE God’s salvation, physical death and spiritual death culminate in the “second death” according to the Word of God in Revelation 20:14...……….
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
This eternal death is not annihilation, as some have taught, and there is NO EXIT as some still teach, but is a conscious, eternal punishment for sins in the lake of fire, described as being separated from the presence of the Lord.
2 Thess. 1:9...………..
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the LORD, and from the glory of his power".
No matter what is posted here, you should know that there is NO SECOND CHANCE after death anywhere in the Bible whereby anyone is removed from the Lake of Fire. ZERO. NONE!
You will have no second chance after you die. You must come to Jesus in this life or you will not come at all.
Because of very bad Bible knowledge, I have agreed with my friends on the fact that there has been a lot of twisted reasoning, and parents would inevitably witness the suffering of their own children and vice versa, relishing in it on the torments of hell. Husbands and wives would feel joy in seeing unbelieving spouses tortured forever. Worst of all, the doctrine paints God as sadistic, cruel and merciless instead of the loving and good God that He is.
However, Those who insist that the Bible does not teache eternal torment by fire should ask whether such a belief is consistent with what the Bible teaches us about God and what has already been said in His Word.
If God says that the Rich man was in torments and he wanted Abraham to put a drop of water on his tongue because he was tormented in the flame.....why do we and by what authority do we have to say that those words are not true.
We then are calling God a liar!!!!
THINK!!!!

All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the account of Lazarus and the righ man considered it factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.”Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

Reasons why Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.
…..A parable is a specific literary device. The account of Lazarus and the rich man could be some other type of literary device but it is not a parable. The word “parable” is from the Greek word παραβολή/parabolé which means “to lay beside.” A parable explains or clarifies something unknown by comparison with something known. All unquestioned parables include this comparison e.g. “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field… Matthew 13:24
Jesus introduces five of His parables as such Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Mark 4:13, Mark 13:28 and Luke 8:11. Others identifies 21 of Jesus’ parables as such.
…..The story of Lazarus is not introduced or identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The story of Lazarus does not have the structure of a parable. There is no comparison between something unknown/misunderstood about the kingdom of heaven and some earthly event.
All unquestioned parables refer to real type events, something which could have or has happened in this life, not fables, something fictitious, unreasonable or impossible. Other than Lazarus and the rich man living and dying, which happens to everybody, there is nothing about the story which is or can be compared to anything in this life.
All unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, a certain shepherd, a certain widow etc. For example, at some time in history a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. At some time in history a widow searched for and found a lost coin.
The story of Lazarus names two specific people, Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historic person. If Abraham was never in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying.
Jesus is not a liar!

Major1 · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
The limitation of God's mercy, if it were possible, would be the condemnation of God Himself.

If there are limits to His mercy, then the word of God, which says that "His mercy endures forever," is a lie.

The limitation of God's mercy makes the disobedience of Adam more powerful and enduring than the obedience of Christ.

I am glad for a Gospel that is co-extensive with, and greater than the devil's work in spirit, soul and body.

I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to a man's heartbeat, for our great High Priest is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever lives to make intercession for them.

I am glad for a Gospel that is not limited to one age, or to the three-score-and-ten years of man's frail existence, but reaches out into the ages to come until God is all and all.

I am so glad for a Gospel which tells me that God has made a way by which even His banished may return.

The Lord Jesus, the Christ, said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw" - how many?

"ALL men." -J. Preston Eby-

There is that radical all of pas again.

Is our Father lying when He declares He will draw the radical all to Christ?

Is our God and Father lying when He declares the whole of created life shall be delivered & set free?

Is our God lying when He declares the entire heavens, earth and underworld will bow in worship IN/EN His Name?

Is our God lying when He proclaims everything shall be consummated in Himself in the fulness of times?

Is our God lying when He proclaims He is the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world (the hilasmos of the holos)?

Is our God the Source, Guide & Goal of the radical ta panta?

As always my brother, nothing but your wishes and opinions and deceptive comments based in questions with no meaning.

You asked several questions...…...

Is our Father lying when He declares He will draw the radical all to Christ?

God does not lie, however man twists his thoughts to make his opinions valid, but God says in Mathew. 7:13-14.....

"Enter ye in at the strait gate," He said, "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it".
SO ACCORDING TO GODS WORD YOUR ARE WRONG!

You then asked...…….

Is our God and Father lying when He declares the whole of created life shall be delivered & set free?

NO, however, God never said that now did He my brother????
IF ALL of creation was delivered and set free, then why will there be lost wicked sinners in the Lake of Fire for eternity?

Revelation 20:10...…...
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
SO ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD, YOU ARE WRONG.

You then asked...…….
Is our God lying when He declares the entire heavens, earth and underworld will bow in worship IN/EN His Name?

YOU are finally CORRECT!!!! However, are there any Scriptures which say that after the lost in LOF bow the knee and worship God, are then removed from the Lack of Fire because they are saved??????? NO there are NO Scriptures which say that and YOU have admitted it as well.
SO, ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG. Deceptively wrong.

You then asked...…...
Is our God lying when He proclaims everything shall be consummated in Himself in the fulness of times?

Now that is actually one of the JW'S points in teaching. The key there is the word "EVERYTHING". Are there any Scriptures which say that those souls in hell will be consumated, saved and removed from LOF?
The Bible says that born again believers will receive GLORIFIED bodies and the mind of Christ. BUT.....again, that is one of those things which must be CHOSEN before death as death closes the door to salvation.
SO ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE INCORRECT.

You then asked...……..
Is our God lying when He proclaims He is the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world (the hilasmos of the holos)?

YOU are correct now TWO times. Congratulations! HOWEVER, the individual sinner must make the choice to accept Christ by faith while alive to be saved. The blood of Christ washes away ALL the sin of ALL sinners, WHO BY FAITH believe and accept Christ as their Saviour.
SO THEN ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG.

Major1 · Jun 30, 2020

Der Alte said:
All of the ECF who quoted/referred to the account of Lazarus and the righ man considered it factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.”Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
Reasons why Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.
…..A parable is a specific literary device. The account of Lazarus and the rich man could be some other type of literary device but it is not a parable. The word “parable” is from the Greek word παραβολή/parabolé which means “to lay beside.” A parable explains or clarifies something unknown by comparison with something known. All unquestioned parables include this comparison e.g. “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field… Matthew 13:24
Jesus introduces five of His parables as such Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Mark 4:13, Mark 13:28 and Luke 8:11. Others identifies 21 of Jesus’ parables as such.
…..The story of Lazarus is not introduced or identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The story of Lazarus does not have the structure of a parable. There is no comparison between something unknown/misunderstood about the kingdom of heaven and some earthly event.
All unquestioned parables refer to real type events, something which could have or has happened in this life, not fables, something fictitious, unreasonable or impossible. Other than Lazarus and the rich man living and dying, which happens to everybody, there is nothing about the story which is or can be compared to anything in this life.
All unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, a certain shepherd, a certain widow etc. For example, at some time in history a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. At some time in history a widow searched for and found a lost coin.
The story of Lazarus names two specific people, Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historic person. If Abraham was never in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying.
Jesus is not a liar!

Agreed. I have made that very same point about 10 or 12 times now.

Luke 16 is NOT a parable because if it was then Jesus was a liar and none of us would then be saved!!!!!!!

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2020

Major1 said:
The blessings of the gospel apply only to those who are alive.

When we ignore/reject the gospel and die in our sins......
we are then done for all eternity.

Death closes the door of God's grace as there is NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IS THERE ANYTHING THAT SAYS WE GET A SECOND CHANCE.

There is nowhere our God expresses He operates in a giant heavenly gambling casino of chance: first, 2nd, third, forth ad nauseum.

“Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will…”

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2020

Major1 said:
The blessings of the gospel apply only to those who are alive.

When we ignore/reject the gospel and die in our sins......
we are then done for all eternity.

Death closes the door of God's grace as there is NO WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IS THERE ANYTHING THAT SAYS WE GET A SECOND CHANCE.

Aquaint yourself with "limited".

"You have limited the Holy One of Israel."

No chance, NONE!

"I will have nothing to do with a God who cares only occasionally. I need a God who is with us always, everywhere, in the deepest depths as well as the highest heights. It is when things go wrong, when good things do not happen, when our prayers seem to have been lost, that God is most present. We do not need the sheltering wings when things go smoothly. We are closest to God in the darkness, stumbling along blindly." -Madeleine L'Engle-

FineLinen · Jun 30, 2020

Major1 said:
HOWEVER, the individual sinner must make the choice to accept Christ by faith while alive to be saved. The blood of Christ washes away ALL the sin of ALL sinners, WHO BY FAITH believe and accept Christ as their Saviour.

SO THEN ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG.

Dear Lord Jesus: surely you jest. Surely the individual sinner coming to be your disciple chooses to follow you?

"You did NOT choose Me, I chose..."

Dear St Paul: Are you kidding us?

"The whole of created life were made prisoners of futility (frustration), NOT willingly, but by reason of HIM who made it so."

Der Alte · Jun 30, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
There is nowhere our God expresses He operates in a giant heavenly gambling casino of chance: first, 2nd, third, forth ad nauseum.
“Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will…”

FineLinen said:
"limited".
"You have limited the Holy One of Israel."
No chance, NONE!

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
Dear Lord Jesus: surely you jest. Surely the individual sinner coming to be your disciple chooses to follow you?
"You did NOT choose Me, I chose..."
Dear St Paul: Are you kidding us?
"The whole of created life were made prisoners of futility (frustration), NOT willingly, but by reason of HIM who made it so."

The usual litany of out-of-context bits and pieces of disparate scripture cobbled together trying to make scripture say what it does not say.

The Lake Of Fire

Senior Veteran

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Similar threads