Is Satan a real being or a term to identify any enemy or concept opposing God?

public hermit · Jun 29, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Thanks for making it easy for me... I really needed that.

Yes of course one might be saved not realising Satan is a being, but fundamental to salvation is knowing who Jesus is and that He is Holy and what He did for us on the Cross.

Then we agree. I'm apologize for not making it that clear from the get go. My fault. I must have misunderstood.

Carl Emerson · Jun 29, 2020

No worries, the problem however does arise when considering the temptation in the wilderness. If someone believes that was a internal struggle within Jesus and not an encounter with an entity, how can a perfect saviour have such bad thoughts?

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

DamianWarS said:
It is the Latin translation of the hebrew word "helel" which is often translated as morning star (essentially venus). In Latin this is a good translation. Somewhere along the way, prior to the KJV it because an identiy to Satan. It's not necessarily their fault and it was established prior to them, it still is an interpretation over translation

I do no see that Latin has anything to do with it. All Bible translators begin with preconceived ideas; the KJV translators would have been ex-Catholic Priests, but Isaiah would not have known Latin.

Isaiah 14:12 (ASV)
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!

The fallen here is the King of Babylon; referred to as the day-star.

In the New testament:

2 Peter 1:19 (NKJV)
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

Revelation 2:28 (NKJV)
28 and I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 22:16 (NKJV)
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

In Isaiah Morning sr is something lost, in the New Testament it is something gained.

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

com7fy8 said:
In Greek, "Satan" means accuser, and in Hebrew it means an opponent. And ones say this means Satan is "the enemy".

Names in non-English languages can be constructed from regular vocabulary words, in order to tell you something about the person you are calling by that name.

So - - when Jesus called Peter "Enemy", that was because Peter was trying to take Jesus a bad way. But Jesus also called Peter a better name, which has lasted.

But Satan the invisible evil one has not changed from being what his name, "Enemy", means.

And we see how he personally had a conversation with Jesus, while Jesus was in the wilderness in order to be tested. I do not think you can have a conversation with a metaphor.

So, why do people want to think Satan is not a personal being? There can be motives for what we are ready to believe.

Also, Paul speaks of how his "thorn in the flesh" was "a messenger of Satan" > 2 Corinthians 12:7-15. It came from the Enemy. The Enemy has ability to do personal things against us, because the Enemy is a personal being.

However > in Romans 16:20 > our Apostle Paul says people will soon bruise Satan. This tends to be what you can do to a personal being. I do not believe you can bruise a metaphor.

I do not use Paul; Paul is an interpreter of scripture; it would be necessary for me to interpret interpretations; or else test everything he said against the OT.

I can accept that there is an invisible one who is the enemy of God b it not that the name Satan uniquely defines him excluding all other enemies, they can all be called Satan, singularly or collectively; nor does the Name Anti-Christ uniquely define him.

Jesus' conversation with Satan is a parable, a hypothetical that contains lessons but the details are fiction.

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

DebbieJ said:
It if it's alright with you, may I ask what Christian sect or religion you belong to? Or, maybe you could just direct me to a link. Do you also adhere to the statement of faith of this forum? There are many Christian sects here with differing beliefs and I just want to have a better orientation before I proceed.

Thanks.

At 9 months I was Christened Presbyterian, at 8 years I went to Sunday School, and at 50 I was baptised into Christ not into a religion, now I have no allegiance to any institution other than the Commonwealth of Australia.

I do not have any problem with the statement of Faith.

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
In the beginning Satan was allowed to live in the garden of Eden for one purpose, to deceive. He took the form of a serpent. Moving on to Job, he seems to take the form of a celestial being, like the angels and converses with God. Satan can do nothing unless God sanctions it for the purpose of testing us. He can be an angel of light or an angel of darkness. Satan as a "being" is not how he interacts with humanity. He interacts through deception which leads us to sin.
Be blessed

The issue is the word "Satan" and it's usage; yours is the common point of view which is different to that of Judaism.

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
No worries, the problem however does arise when considering the temptation in the wilderness. If someone believes that was a internal struggle within Jesus and not an encounter with an entity, how can a perfect saviour have such bad thoughts?

It does typify the struggle we all have and the need to overcome.

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

Bruce Leiter said:
God created him as an angel who, on his own, rebelled against his Maker and dragged many angels and humanity with him to make warfare against God. Just as D-Day was the turning point in WWII, so Jesus' death and resurrection were turning points in the spiritual warfare.

One important method of interpreting the Bible is to assume what the Bible assumes. It assumes that Satan is a real, created, fallen angel; thus, we need to assume that he is. If he is only metaphoric, how did that metaphor tempt Jesus in the desert by taking him to the top of the temple, for example?

I wouldn't use the term metaphor, Satan is simply not a proper name; Jesus has many names; one is God with us, an other is "Faithful and true"; faithful and true is not His proper name; faithful and true could identify any who follow Him. We do not know what an angel is, but there could be one who is the enemy of God, but Satan is not it's proper name even if it has that label. The Bible uses symbolic language to describe things that would otherwise be not comprehendible, or where the required language has not evolved.

Carl Emerson · Jun 30, 2020

sparow said:
I do not use Paul; Paul is an interpreter of scripture; it would be necessary for me to interpret interpretations; or else test everything he said against the OT.

So you dont believe all scripture is inspired. Just the OT?

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

fwGod said:
Another of the gospel writers said that Jesus turned from him and said "Get behind me, satan". Therefore Jesus rebuked the words that Peter had said that were not in line with the prophecies that Jesus was there to fulfill. The words had in them a demonic temptation to make a human based justifiable reason to decline to follow through with God's will.

Jesus turning his back to Peter is indicative of the verse "We fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this world and wicked spirits in high places."

And also indicative of "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds and everything that seeks to exalt itself against the knowledge of God. And taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ."

When Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness, he was not suffering from schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder.

Jesus called the devil "a liar and a father of lies, that the truth is not in him." Jesus said of him that he comes for only one reason, to steal, to kill and to destroy." Then Jesus said of himself, "but I have come that you have life and that more abundantly."

In every scripture that mentions the devil/satan/adversary/serpent, etc.. all indicate that he is a real albeit spiritual enemy.

"Devil" is Greek mythology used by translators. Jesus always spoke in Parables except when He spoke privately with the apostles.

If Mathew recorded Jesus's temptation the he wasn't an apostle until the next verse. Your arguments are not addressing the use of the Word "Satan"; if Jesus was tempted by a supernatural entity then it' proper name is not revealed but was simply called "enemy"

TexFire316 · Jun 30, 2020

He is real and the enemy of us and the Most High God. And the war is about to get real I suspect.

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
So you dont believe all scripture is inspired. Just the OT?

I do not speak religious jargon, so when you use "scripture" and "inspired" you mean something different to me using conventional English, where, scripture means any thing expressed using script, and in the case of English we use Latin script; what I write is scripture, what you write is scripture and what Paul wrote was scripture. inspired means motivated, empowered or encourage. Rev 22:18-19. is an admission that the scriptures can be fiddled with and easily by those who do not believe.

Revelation 22:18-19 (NKJV)
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Jesus confirms the OT by His words His actions and His presence; the NT is confirmed in that it is the fulfilment of the old, in that it is a second witness to the old; Jesus' second coming, that great and terrible day of the Lord confirms both covenants, which are really one.

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
No worries, the problem however does arise when considering the temptation in the wilderness. If someone believes that was a internal struggle within Jesus and not an encounter with an entity, how can a perfect saviour have such bad thoughts?

The issue is the word Satan, is only one of Gods enemies called Satan or are each enemy called Satan; mankind is the enemy of God except for those converted from the flesh.

sparow · Jun 30, 2020

Most think Satan is a particular being, I believe Satan is a particular spirit that manifest itself in numerous ways.

Carl Emerson · Jun 30, 2020

sparow said:
Most think Satan is a particular being, I believe Satan is a particular spirit that manifest itself in numerous ways.

I think we agree - a spirit being?

Carl Emerson · Jun 30, 2020

sparow said:
I do not speak religious jargon, so when you use "scripture" and "inspired" you mean something different to me using conventional English, where, scripture means any thing expressed using script, and in the case of English we use Latin script; what I write is scripture, what you write is scripture and what Paul wrote was scripture. inspired means motivated, empowered or encourage. Rev 22:18-19. is an admission that the scriptures can be fiddled with and easily by those who do not believe.

Revelation 22:18-19 (NKJV)
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Jesus confirms the OT by His words His actions and His presence; the NT is confirmed in that it is the fulfilment of the old, in that it is a second witness to the old; Jesus' second coming, that great and terrible day of the Lord confirms both covenants, which are really one.

I said is all Scripture inspired or just the OT...

My question was not jargon but a quote as below from 2 Tim 3:

15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…

Do you agree with this or do you not?

Secondly - how do you mean the old and new covenants are one?

com7fy8 · Jun 30, 2020

1 John 5:19 >

"We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19)

So, not only is Satan called "Satan" which ones say can mean our accuser and adversary, but also I see how John says he is "the wicked one". And Paul says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," in Ephesians 2:2.

So - sparow - you said:
Jesus' conversation with Satan is a parable

God's word doesn't say it was a parable. And it appears that John is saying the world is under the sway of Satan. And this would be by means of the evil spirit "who" is working in disobedient people.

And Jesus told Peter that Satan had "asked" to sift Peter as wheat. He did not say that was a parable. Parables, to my knowledge do not ask to sift humans as wheat.

"Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat." (Luke 22:31)

Jesus refers to Satan as "he", not "it".

In any case, I would say Satan has different names in order to bring out different things which are true of him. He is our enemy, adversary, wicked, and ruling the evil world . . . not what parables and theoretical interpretations are known for doing.

And the Bible does not clearly say otherwise. So, Jesus also says >

"the ruler of this world is judged,"

in John 16:11.

And Jesus says "the ruler of this world is cast out." (in John 16:11)

So, Satan is the ruler of the evil world, I would say this means. A ruler is a personal being, in this case spiritual.

Why does Satan not want us to know this? If people think they themselves are their own gods, then they can be tricked into taking things into their own hands, and not know who is causing them to do this. He is an outcast and condemned . . . not how he wants people to see him, to say the least. Because "he is a liar and the father of it," Jesus also says, in John 8:44.

So, Jesus and John and Paul are talking about Satan as "he", not "it". Parables and interpretations are its.

But yes in God's word there are parables in which there are personal beings. So, I see how ones could decide this is a stepping stone to show that anything about Satan is a parable, too.

DamianWarS · Jun 30, 2020

sparow said:
I do no see that Latin has anything to do with it. All Bible translators begin with preconceived ideas; the KJV translators would have been ex-Catholic Priests, but Isaiah would not have known Latin.

"lucifer" is a latin word that doesn't appear in the original languages, it is introduced via the Latin Vulgate not via what Isaiah knew or not knew. Isaiah never used the word "lucifer"

fwGod · Jun 30, 2020

sparow said:
"Devil" is Greek mythology used by translators.

Whether you are wondering if Satan is real or you are a believing Christian considering how Satan may be deceiving you, it is important to go to the source of all truth about Satan - the Bible. God's Word describes to us in detail who Satan is, his nature, his acts, and his future!

These Bible verses in no way express a myth, but what meaning would there be in them if they did?

1 John 3:7-9 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. 8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

This connects with 1jn.3:9.. James.4:7 So humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

But according to you, I guess we don't have to resist what is merely a Greek myth. And further more, I guess that in Matthew 4:1-11 Jesus wasn't really tempted in the wilderness at all, for what deviltry can there be in a mere Greek myth?

This connects with 1jn.3:8.. Acts 3:38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Where is truth.. or divine purpose if God was so concerned that He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus who came to destroy.. .. nothing more than a Greek myth?

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

But according to you Jesus is only talking in parables of a Greek myth. Wonder why none of the religious leaders didn't defend themselves by saying that Jesus' accusations mean nothing because the devil is no more than the Greek myth.

Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?

According to you it's a wonder why God struck Ananias down since Peter must of been talking in parables in incorporating a Greek myth into the charges against Ananias.

Here's another one. Why would the apostle Paul be writing to encourage against a Greek myth.. and foolishly involving God in it?..
Rm.16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Zechariah 3:1-2 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

Oh no!.. satan is even in the Hebrew language, so the Greek myth is even there too? This url gives the scholarly explanation Strong's Hebrew: 7854. שָׂטָן (satan) -- adversary, also the name of the superhuman adversary of God.

There are still more scriptures that mention the devil/satan but in the interest of keeping this post short, I won't include them here.

Jesus always spoke in Parables except when He spoke privately with the apostles.

Jesus only spoke in parables when he was teaching. Otherwise he didn't. The incident for instance of Jesus being tempted by the devil is an actual event, not a parable.

Parables involve metaphors and figures of speech. However, none of the verses speaking of the devil/satan have any indicative phrases that could identify the texts as anything else but actual events, encounters with a demonic entity.

If Mathew recorded Jesus's temptation the he wasn't an apostle until the next verse.

Matthew wrote the gospel after all of the incidents had happened that are recorded in it of the ministry of Jesus.

Therefore your statement is invalid, and also an example of weird thinking.

Your arguments are not addressing the use of the Word "Satan"..

There are any number of scriptures that imply the influence or activity of the devil or satan without actually mentioning him.

Trouble, temptation, adversity, affliction, oppression.. etc, etc, etc.

Therefore justifying the scriptural connections I made that are related in showing how the devil can influence our thinking as he did to Ananias and wanted to influence Jesus by tempting him.

if Jesus was tempted by a supernatural entity then it' proper name is not revealed but was simply called "enemy"

The translation of the word in Hebrew or Greek in both languages becomes "satan" as Jesus said "Be gone satan".. who prompted Peter's thoughts and he quickly spoke the words.

That satan was the devil, the same that tempted Jesus in the wilderness.. a supernatural enemy which was once the anointed cherub that covered, rebelled and therefore became a fallen angel, first introduced in the garden of Eden to tempt Adam to disobey God's command and deceive Eve.. such is not merely a human enemy as you attempt to claim, as there was no other human alive when Adam and Eve was. Neither was there any human with or near Jesus when he was in the wilderness of temptation.

In any case, an enemy.. any enemy is not a Greek myth, or any myth from any cultural origin.

sparow · Jul 1, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
I said is all Scripture inspired or just the OT...

My question was not jargon but a quote as below from 2 Tim 3:

15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…

Do you agree with this or do you not?

Secondly - how do you mean the old and new covenants are one?

I'll let the Jargon slip by; your question seems incomplete or non-specific; had you said, "Did God inspire the recorders of His word", I would say yes, and without using Paul as an authority on the matter. When Paul wrote his epistle there was only the OT (Holy scripture), so it was only the OT Paul was referring to.

I don't have a problem with the scripture (not Holy) you quote, but it is presented out of the context of the private epistle, implying that the context or privacy doesn't matter.

The New covenant is better, yet it is a subset of the old. What they have in common is:

They were both made with Israel and their descendants, they both share the same Messiah/king, they both share the same Kingdom, they both share the same Law and the same circumcision.

Is Satan a real being or a term to identify any enemy or concept opposing God?

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